I've done my fair share of beating on Blasted Lands mobs since TBC, and I've never, ever seen a miss/dodge/parry, even before the expertise change. Admittedly I've never attempted to calculate the exact breakpoint where you start to see misses against them, but it's less than 280 hit rating with precision, if anyone really wants to test this out.
Bingo! The game play is easy, the cooldowns on the ss and shiv are such that, as well as playing keepie uppie with SnD I could keep a pretty constant stream of specials going in.
OK, first thing is that if you are using daggers you should never be using Sinister Strike. Get behind the mob and use backstab. Sinister Strike is a skill that's used with slow, hard-hitting weapons. Next, you shouldn't generally shiv in PvE content. Shiv is a very low-damage move whose only benefit is that it applies poison. Its main use is in PvP combat, to make sure you get crippling poison (or wounding poison etc.) onto an opponent.
For combat daggers, you should use backstab to build combo points, keep SnD running, and spend any extra energy / combo points on Rupture. Combat swords/fists/maces are the same, except you use Sinister Strike rather than backstab.
Originally Posted by RedOtto
I even popped a quick BM heroic before bed and dropped a nice purple gem with agility and to hit buffs and Lantro's sword for a 2nd time! So if I go the whole hog and do combat swords I could have a matching set... what do you think?
That would be a very very bad idea, for much the same reason. Latro's is an extremely fast sword (fastest in the game, in fact). You use it in your offhand so as to get lots of poison procs and combat potency procs. However, because it is fast, the damage per hit is low, which means the Sinister Strike damage will also be low. For combat swords/fists/maces, you want the slowest main hand weapon you can get and the fastest offhand weapon you can get. It's as simple as that.
i know this question myight sound stupid but did you take SDK into account when you speak about the value of each attribut? i like to socket agility and eat/drink agi food/agi pot instead of +hit because of this reason.
/edit sorry i dont know the name of the buff in english its the paladin buff which gives you 10% on all attributes praise of the kings or something
I've done my fair share of beating on Blasted Lands mobs since TBC, and I've never, ever seen a miss/dodge/parry, even before the expertise change. Admittedly I've never attempted to calculate the exact breakpoint where you start to see misses against them, but it's less than 280 hit rating with precision, if anyone really wants to test this out.
If you are paladin (as your profile suggests), the missrate for a 1h or 2h weapon is:
5 + (5*moblevel - your skill)*0.1
This equals to zero for a level 60 mob.
So you should not miss mobs lower or equal than lvl 60 regardless of +hit items
Last edited by Karmon : 01/25/08 at 9:19 AM.
Reason: typo
If you are paladin (as your profile suggests), the missrate for a 1h or 2h weapon is:
5 + (5*moblevel - your skill)*0.1
This equals to zero for a level 60 mob.
So you should not miss mobs lower or equal than lvl 60 regardless of +hit items
OK, first thing is that if you are using daggers you should never be using Sinister Strike. Get behind the mob and use backstab. Sinister Strike is a skill that's used with slow, hard-hitting weapons. Next, you shouldn't generally shiv in PvE content. Shiv is a very low-damage move whose only benefit is that it applies poison. Its main use is in PvP combat, to make sure you get crippling poison (or wounding poison etc.) onto an opponent.
For combat daggers, you should use backstab to build combo points, keep SnD running, and spend any extra energy / combo points on Rupture. Combat swords/fists/maces are the same, except you use Sinister Strike rather than backstab.
That would be a very very bad idea, for much the same reason. Latro's is an extremely fast sword (fastest in the game, in fact). You use it in your offhand so as to get lots of poison procs and combat potency procs. However, because it is fast, the damage per hit is low, which means the Sinister Strike damage will also be low. For combat swords/fists/maces, you want the slowest main hand weapon you can get and the fastest offhand weapon you can get. It's as simple as that.
ROFLMAO... just as I thought I might be getting something right!
Still, on the upside, I will be able to tell my mage buddies that they are really crap if I still beat them, lol
So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
i know this question myight sound stupid but did you take SDK into account when you speak about the value of each attribut? i like to socket agility and eat/drink agi food/agi pot instead of +hit because of this reason.
/edit sorry i dont know the name of the buff in english its the paladin buff which gives you 10% on all attributes praise of the kings or something
Its 'Blessing of Kings' and yes, its considered but still hit is way better until you are hit-capped.
Originally Posted by RedOtto
ROFLMAO... just as I thought I might be getting something right!
Still, on the upside, I will be able to tell my mage buddies that they are really crap if I still beat them, lol
So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
hehe, thats true.
Backstab does not have a cooldown. its practically the only style you want to use your energy with.
You start the fight with Ambush/Cheapshot, SnD and start building combopoints with backstab. As soon as SnD runs out (you should have built 4-5 combo points by then) you refresh it. Your main intention is to keep SnD up and running. Try that for a few times and you will notice that you generate more combo points than needed to keep up SnD. For those combo points rupture is the best option to use them with. You just have to try it out and play with it. You will get good at it very fast. The better you get at managing your combopoints the more damage you will be able to do.
It can be confusing but I also want to tell you: try to keep up SnD using as few combopoints as possible. The first combopoint spent on SnD gives you 13 seconds. The second-fifth combo points only add 4.
Your goal is a 3s/5s/5r cycle, but its never predictable how that will work out considering combat potency. Keeping up SnD will do it for now.
i know this question myight sound stupid but did you take SDK into account when you speak about the value of each attribut? i like to socket agility and eat/drink agi food/agi pot instead of +hit because of this reason.
/edit sorry i dont know the name of the buff in english its the paladin buff which gives you 10% on all attributes praise of the kings or something
Not a direct answer but if you go by spreadsheet results then it's hte buffed DPS that's of any value and that usually involves Blessing of Kings.
As a note though. Even when figuring in BoK +20 hit food will probably still benefit you more than agility food. For me it's a 3 DPS diffrence over 20 agi last time I checked.
Really though, how many paladins do you see running around with 280 hit rating?
None of course
Following up on the missrate.
If the formula is correct for mobs below your level you can derive this formula for the required hitrating to never miss
a mob (assuming 5% precision and dualwielding)
hitrating >= 205/13 *(moblevel/2 -16).
So with your 280 hitrating you never miss mobs below lvl 68 and to never miss a lvl 57 mob requires only
190 hitrating.
Regarding the issue of miss rates on mobs below your level I recently noticed this post in a different thread on this forum, which I hope will prove helpful: http://elitistjerks.com/589919-post201.html
A bit of digging around in that thread will probably supply the rest of the relevant numbers, but it seems that one theory of miss rate on lower level mobs has at least been proven.
Regarding the issue of miss rates on mobs below your level I recently noticed this post in a different thread on this forum, which I hope will prove helpful: http://elitistjerks.com/589919-post201.html
A bit of digging around in that thread will probably supply the rest of the relevant numbers, but it seems that one theory of miss rate on lower level mobs has at least been proven.
As I read this thread, it deals with lowlevel mob hitting higher level player.
It is entire possible that for the case mob hits player total different formuals apply.
ROFLMAO... just as I thought I might be getting something right!
Still, on the upside, I will be able to tell my mage buddies that they are really crap if I still beat them, lol
So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
Also, and especially against Raid Bosses, you should probably be using Garrotte to open with instead of Ambush. The damage over time from Garrotte will most likely be better than the Ambush burst.
So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
Actually, you're better off using Garrote, or not using Stealth at all. Stealth just slows you down, and means you take even longer to get to the mob. On top of that, many mobs in Kara and above are immune to Cheap Shot, and an untimely Ambush crit can have you one-shotted and dead on the floor.
Garrote ignores armor, and it's more evenly-spread threat. So it's the best opener if you decide to Stealth. If not, just hit a Backstab and get Slice and Dice running as quickly as possible.
Also some important nuggets:
Slice and Dice is more important than Rupture! As Combat daggers, at least 60% of your damage should be white (possibly more), and Slice and Dice is a big contributor to that. Rupture is only in the DPS cycle to burn extra combo points between Slice and Dice refreshes.
Why Rupture? Well, for the same reason that you want to use Garrote over Ambush. It's a cheap finisher that ignores armor, and won't cause threat spikes that can get you killed. Also note that a 3cp Rupture and a 5cp rupture both receive the same AP bonus. The only difference is that a 5cp Rupture lasts longer (but still does the same DPS).
For that reason, you can also find some Combat dagger rogues using a 1s/3r cycle. It's easy to maintain and manage, and the only downside is that you'll probably see a lot less returns from Relentless Strikes (which makes 3s/5s/5r better).
Its 'Blessing of Kings' and yes, its considered but still hit is way better until you are hit-capped.
hehe, thats true.
Backstab does not have a cooldown. its practically the only style you want to use your energy with.
You start the fight with Ambush/Cheapshot, SnD and start building combopoints with backstab. As soon as SnD runs out (you should have built 4-5 combo points by then) you refresh it. Your main intention is to keep SnD up and running. Try that for a few times and you will notice that you generate more combo points than needed to keep up SnD. For those combo points rupture is the best option to use them with. You just have to try it out and play with it. You will get good at it very fast. The better you get at managing your combopoints the more damage you will be able to do.
It can be confusing but I also want to tell you: try to keep up SnD using as few combopoints as possible. The first combopoint spent on SnD gives you 13 seconds. The second-fifth combo points only add 4.
Your goal is a 3s/5s/5r cycle, but its never predictable how that will work out considering combat potency. Keeping up SnD will do it for now.
Good luck
TY
My bad phrasing... i meant the downtime between being able to use BS again as opposed to a cd
It just seems very 'retro'... this was how I leveled... but it's ok, I have been warned officially already for stupidity
Now, the key thing here is that a lot of rogues are using 1.5 speed OHs, don't have 2/5 T6 for faster SnD, may not have 58 haste rating on OH, etc.
Hopefully this isn't taken out of context too much, but I was just wondering what the relevance of 58 haste rating on the OH has here? I looked at your gear and noted you just had the 27 haste on the bracers. I'm not sure if you're taking that + the average of DST (which I thought was higher, but i'll admit that I don't remember off of the top of my head) or if this was just a number to bring the 1.5 speed down to 1.4 speed.
Its 'Blessing of Kings' and yes, its considered but still hit is way better until you are hit-capped.
I'd say this depends. Hit rating is generally better, but I think it depends on your gear level. For a while, in a mix of kara gear and some trickle-down crafted epics, the spreadsheet had agility as worth more than hit for me, and I'm well under the hit-cap. With my current gear, and the buffs I can expect when I run kara, 1 hit is worth 1.04 agility...not a big difference.
If you are 25-man raiding, and can expect full buffs (things like windfury, which I've had for a total of 1 five-man instance lol), I don't doubt your numbers. But at lower gear levels...I'd say check the sheet. Also, agility offers side benefits...added armor and more importantly, dodge. Sure in a 25 man raid a rogue probably never gets hit. But in 5 mans I take hits from time to time, and I still run heroics now and again, and more dodge is nice for pvp.
True I have gemmed for hit...but I wouldn't hold it against someone to gem for agility. Depending on their gear, it could even be a DPS improvement. In fact, I would imagine for most rogues at my gear level and below that agility may be better than hit...or at least a wash. In which case the side-benefits from agility make it better.
Hopefully this isn't taken out of context too much, but I was just wondering what the relevance of 58 haste rating on the OH has here? I looked at your gear and noted you just had the 27 haste on the bracers. I'm not sure if you're taking that + the average of DST (which I thought was higher, but i'll admit that I don't remember off of the top of my head) or if this was just a number to bring the 1.5 speed down to 1.4 speed.
At the time I wrote that I had not yet found Signet of Primal Wrath, so was using Band of Devastation in addition to Swiftstrike Bracers, hence, 58 haste rating. The relevance of this is that haste gives you more OH attacks and hence more chances to proc poison, and will thus increase the rate at which poison stacks up and reduces the chance of the stack dropping.
How much hit rating does an end game rogue want to shoot for? Right now I have 313.
Does it matter? Hit is just a number. DPS is what matters. Having 363 hit and 1500 AP would be pretty dumb. Balance your stats. In the case of gemming, hit is *generally* the best stat for *most* rogues. For gearing though, picking a piece just because it has hit is retarded. Hit is a good stat - but thats all it is, a stat. Multiply your hit, haste, ap, arm pen, haste, crit, etc to get a more important number.
Note - get a helm w/ a Meta slot and use RED. Enchant your OH. Why did you socket a purple into your Nynjah boots.. you dropped 4 agi/hit to get the 3-hit socket bonus. Would of been better off ignoring the socket bonus. Similar for the chest/helm, although you can justify 2 blues for a RED meta.. not that you have one.
I have a Math-type question ,is there a simple way to figure out how much AP a certain # of Ignore Armor is worth?
EXP 100 Ignore Armor = ??? AP
The Reason being I was thinking about for my next possible upgrade ory's Embrace, and 2 Daggers of Bad Mojo with Executioner on MH and Mongoose on OH. I thought this would go nicely with my 3/3 of Serrated Blades.
I'd suggest you spend some time learning how armor penetration works before dropping all that cash and those badges on ArP gear. It can be a powerful stat, but (no offense) your question kinda indicates that you don't really have a clue how it works.
Long story short, the more armor a mob/player has, the less effective it becomes. Therefore, having passive ArP against a mob with 5 Sunders on it can be pretty powerful. Likewise if you take Improved Expose Armor and frequently run with a paladin or druid tank. However, against high-armor targets, it makes very little difference.
The amount of actual DPS you gain is correlated to how much armor your target has. There is plenty of discussion on this if you search the forums.
The simple way to determine the ratio is to download one of the two Rogue Spreadsheets and enter your gear/buffs/etc. Both of the spreadsheets show stat equivalences (although I believe both express them as relative to Agility) The term AP is confusing as I've seen it used to refer to both attack power or agility.
The simple way to determine the ratio is to download one of the two Rogue Spreadsheets and enter your gear/buffs/etc. Both of the spreadsheets show stat equivalences (although I believe both express them as relative to Agility) The term AP is confusing as I've seen it used to refer to both attack power or agility.
The Gear Spreadsheet uses APEP.
As has been said multiple times, if you need more explicit values than those used in the first post of this thread, open the Gear Sheet (or I guess the DPS Sheet too), input your gear and buffs, and then either unhide the DamageCalcs sheet (for the former)/use the AEP calculator on the first page (for the latter).
I'm trying to figure out a better cycle for trash, and perhaps bosses with sufficient interrupt times, and thought that maybe the 3r cycles would be fitting for it. Since it'll tick for the same as 5r just shorter duration. So something similar to dagger compressed cycle for 1s/3r. But for swords of course it doesn't seem to work too well, found most of the time there's a lot of time left on SnD and or Rupture. So, is there a recommended cycle for this? Or am I just off and should just stick with 5r cycles?
01/25/08, 8:52 AM
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