We've all looked at the spreadsheet, run the calcs, run the AEP macro, etc, and it all tells us that (no matter what the spec), hit rating is superior to haste rating.

My question is, why?

In theory, +hit and +haste do exactly the same thing: increase your white hits. 15.76 hit rating increases your chance to hit by per swing by 1%, and 15.76 increases your number of swings by 1%. Don't those theoretically amount to the same thing? If so, then why is hit rating on top?

Let me take this a little bit further... haste is a true 1% white DPS increase, because it increases the number of swings. This means it increases the number of hits, crits, glancings, dodges, and misses all together by 1%. Hit, on the other hand, just converts misses to hits. Thus, it's actual contribution depends on what your hit table looks like. Let's take my stats for +hit (pulling numbers right off the spreadsheet)...

6.50% dodge
5.67% miss
30.96% crit
25.00% glancing (is a % reduction even included for this anymore?)
31.87% hit

For arguments sake (because I can't find the real number), glancings do 85% damage. My DPS weighting therefore looks like...

(30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 31.87*1) -> thus I do 115.04% of my avg. white damage as DPS

And the percent increase from 1% hit is...

((30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 32.87*1) - (30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 31.87*1))/(30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 31.87*1)

(116.04 - 115.04) / 115.04 = 0.00869 -> an 0.869% DPS increase (?)

So why does hit come out better than haste?

The only thing I can think of is that in terms of numbers of attacks that connect, +hit is slightly more valuable. +1% haste increases number of connecting white hits by exactly 1%; +1% hit's contributing again depends on your table. For me,

((30.96 + 25.00 + 32.87) - (30.96 + 25.00 + 31.87))/(30.96 + 25.00 + 31.87)

(88.83 - 87.83) / 88.83 = 0.01125 -> a 1.13% increase in number of connecting attacks.

Specced into combat potency and sword spec, I can see where that would be more useful. But even if I drop poisons from my offhand weapon and use a deadliness Hemo trispec it comes out the same. What gives?

EDIT: I figured it out; it's windfury! If I am not running with WF totem, then when I run the AEP macro I get haste > hit for buffed DPS (0.75 > 0.72). If I am running with WF, then I get hit >> haste (0.91 >> 0.72). It seems like that slight 0.13% difference in number of white hits shouldn't change the rating that much, but apparently it does. Amazing how one totem makes that much of a difference in our itemization. Any thoughts?

For clarification, I am using an 11/20/30 spec in the test, so as not to have Sword Spec or Combat Potency. I also do not have a DST.

First off, by the single roll table for white hits, a hit you gain from +hit will never crit. It will simply go from a miss to a hit. Hits you can from +haste, however, will, because you are getting more swings in overall (thus more of everything, including crits).

Second, did you read through all of what I was saying? I specifically turned off poisons and used an 11/20/30 spec so that Sword Spec and Combat Potency would not factor in.

And what was surprising me was that, with only Windfury totem and no other synergystic trinkets/talents, +hit was still showing up as much, much, better than +haste. I thought that was odd. It looks like the increased damaging hits per second from +hit outweights the actual DPS increase from +haste by proccing WF more. Odd that it is so much better though.

Hi, I've read a lot of things in this thread and picked up some valuable information, but one question I have to ask is reguarding the combo point cycle one should use with the bonus for 4 piece tier 5.

I've just picked up my 3rd piece of tier 5 and I think I'm in line on dkp to get the the pants next week. I really have no idea how this extra energy is going to work or how it will effect my combo point cycle (currently using 4s/5r). Also, if it procs when i'm about to do a 5pt rupture, is it worth it to use an eviscerate instead? Since DPE is irrelevant when your finishers cost zero energy, I know I'd get screwed on a non-crit evis, but I've recently had them critting on trash mobs for 3100-3399 (highest recorded).

Any info/input would be appreciated.

You just continue your cycles and they just get faster. DPE is still relevant, and Rupture will do more damage on average every time. Basically it is like free energy, sure you can get 10 more free energy by using Eviserate, but keep in mind that 3100 Eviserate is only a 1330 non crit, and for example my average rupture does 2450 damage, so unless you have a 60% or higher crit rate, you are still better off using rupture if it can tick out. Essentially the 4 piece T5 bonus just speeds up your cycle, but it shouldn't materially change it.

I have a question about human rogues. I know for orcs you cant get the double expertise from axes and stack it to 10. But with a rogue i noticed putting on a sword and putting on a mace it stacks expertise to 10.

My question is would a build with dual weapon spec give you more dps than a combat swords spec? All i would miss out on is vial poisons. Here is the build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is for end game theory. If you get all your t6 the only expertise item you should be wearing idealy is belt of one hundred deaths. So wouldnt stacking 10 expertise plus sword spec plus 5 percent bigger crits and 10 more expertise from talents outweigh 16 percent damge from poisons? Has this been tested? Would losing sword spec procs on the offhand hurt the dps?

Some cycle questions I couldn't find answers to in here:

I'm currently 11/27/23 with 2pc T4, Gladiator's/Latro's. The spreadsheet and the info in the OP both list 1s/5r as the best cycle.

Issue is, I have a brief SnD drop nearly every cycle. Often less than a second or so (sometimes more if I miss a few Ruthlessness procs), but it's there. First question--is that normal for people running this cycle?

Second question: to what extent is it worth micromanaging the cycle? If SnD is running out and I only have 4 CP, it is better to just hit the Rupture with 4 and restart? Going to 5 risks a 3-4 second SnD drop if it doesn't proc Ruthlessness.

Seems to me that at least part of the answer might be some sort of bug in the Rogue DPS sheet. If I put your gear into the Rogue Gear sheet with a 11/20/30 spec and pull the EAP numbers, I get:

With WF: Haste 1.73, Hit 1.80
Without WF: Haste 1.63, Hit 1.50

or, in AEP, if you prefer:

With WF: Haste .87, Hit .91
Without WF: Haste .83, Hit .77

Which is a swing from about 5% better to about 10% worse, which is a significantly smaller swing that you observed in the DPS sheet. And, while I confess I might be biased on this matter, I'm more inclined to trust the Gear sheet than the DPS sheet.

Fundamentally, the reason hit tends to do well is procs; WF and Mongoose in your case, those plus Sword Spec, Combat Potency, poisons, Dragonspine Trophy, etc. for rogues in general. In particular, PPM effects (Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc.) scale with hit but not with haste, which gives hit a relative advantage. On some of the others (Sword Spec and WF), Hit has twice the effect of Haste; both effect the number of procs that actually occur, but hit additionally applies to how many of those additional procs do damage; the number of extra hits from WF scales as hit^2 while only linearly with haste. And those WF procs may in their own right proc additional stuff, strengthening *that* effect even further.

So, long story short: the exact magnitude of the numbers you're seeing is probably a bug; but the idea that hit gets better relative to haste as you accumulate more procs (such as WF) is fundamentally correct.

Huh. I had not thought about +hit double scaling with WF or Sword Spec by letting your extra attacks land as well, but that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the insightful explanation.

EDIT: I was using the DPS spreadsheet as opposed to yours specifically because it has the AEP macro to make life easier when comparing stats. I do like your spreadsheet, though, and I routinely check builds in each. Do you have something in it somewhere which calculates EAP/AEP? If so, where should I look for it? I'm not as familiar with your spreadsheet as the other.

There was a recently discovered bug concerning that. It appears to have a small affect on the DPS calculations, much larger for the AEP calcs for haste. If you want to correct the issue prior to next published version substitute the following formula in cell Q39 in both the Buffed DPS and Unbuffed DPS sheets:
=(I2+I3+I5+I6)*Q37/(I2+I3)-1

The AEP valuation for Haste should rise.

Putting a convenient display for EAP is on my to-do list for the Gear sheet, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. For the moment, if you unhide the Damage Calcs page, you can read the EAP value of each stat on row 11 of that sheet.

I'm 11/27/23--Hemo, no CP.

Basically, if I SnD down to near 0 energy and get neither Ruthlessness nor Relentless (32% of the time), I need 175 energy for 5 Hemos. This usually means 9 ticks, which is already longer than the SnD. So I'm basically wondering if the recommendation for 1s/5r with Hemo assumes SnD downtime.

Actually, looking again, 1s/5r, 2s/5r, and 3s/5r are all very close in the spreadsheet, and the "winner" changes based on gear/buffs. So I should probably stop worrying about which is slightly better and just use 2s.

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This brings up a question--does the spreadsheet overvalue cycles like 1s/5r (with either Hemo or Combat) that risk SnD downtime? In reality, there's fluctuation in your CP/energy generation that's all averaged out for the spreadsheet. However, the fluctuations can only hurt your DPS by causing an SnD drop; they can't improve it somehow (a lucky string or Ruthlessness procs doesn't improve your DPS, it just results in a bit of wasted SnD time). So a spreadsheet would overestimate the DPS of a really tight cycle by assuming full SnD uptime.