◊ Hanos

I have a very hard time believing that. What is this "it" you are referring to? The current belt ranking puts it 4th I belive behind: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, Belt of Deep Shadows and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. The lack of sockets, lack of hit, and high stamina all contribute to Shadow-Walkers Cord being inferior.

 

saedo

I'd say it depends on amount of gear/buffs you get. For me on the spreadsheets it could clock in from 2nd to 4th best belt with various buffs on. A single big factor is Windfury (I only get it bout 50% of the raids), that alone seems to drop the value of the belt a chunk.

 

◊ Hanos

What type of screwy raid set up results in rogues raiding without Windfury 50% of the time?

 

Ozzmar

An Alliance guild with 3 elemental shamans. No, I'm definitely not talking about my own.

 

• Aldriana

I was in a guild for a while that only had one shaman in it for basically all of T5 content - as such, WF availability was, shall we say, somewhat intermittent (particularly since on many fights we needed to give it to the tank for aggro reasons). So these things happen. However, in guilds where such matters *are* the case, the first and largest optimization that the guild in question should perform is "recruit more shamans". In the meantime, however, it's lack does have a significant effect on the relative quality of some stats (in particular, hit and expertise are worth significantly less without WF).

 

Shair

Hi guys, as you can see, I'm new here. I have been reading these forum for quite some time tho.

I got some questions that i want some feedback to.

1. I recently got Talon of Azshara, but I'm currently combat daggers and of course I'm respeccing to Combat swords, But i don't have an offhand sword. Should i continue with combat daggers untill i have an OH sword? Or should i play with Sword in MH and merciless dagger (My current offhand) OH?

2. Are my stats/gear good for an guild which has just started MH/BT? I know I still have 2t4 , but that's only because of my current dagger specc, (and i find t5 rather sucky, 'cept from gloves).

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

//Shair

 

koaschten

1. You want a sword in your offhand. Be it Latro's or a pvp reward. A Dagger won't cut it
2. Without comparing the gear of you and your guild, knowing how long you have been in t5 and how far you progressed. It's hard to figure out.

And a friendly tip, don't sign your posts, its frowned upon.

 

saedo

Lack of stable shamans (of any spec) available for every raid. You can say recruit more, but they have to come, be online, not come down with rl scheduling problems, and not gquit. Haven't had the best of luck with em yet.

 

Busko

:P well its more about the haste rating i was asking Was wondering how i could compare it to other stats

 

• Vulajin

Possibly using the method described in the first post of this thread, which you should have read before posting.

 

Ranog

At the warrior theorycrafting for 2.3 it is only 5.6% dodge (and ca. 10% parry). Ist there a explanation or source for 6.5% dodge at Level 73 raid boss?

 

Busko

So Vulajin would that mean that 1% (aka 15.77 rating) hit is 5.57% better then haste ? Meaning i need only 2 extra points in Haste rating for it to be equal of 1% hit. math not my strong side so i might be totally wrong >_< Oh yea and the 5.57% is from the difference of theres EP.

 

Giske

This is a great thread, just one request I would like to make. Next time you update could your perhaps include a notice at the sections that have been updated or revised? Just a little (Updated 02/01/08) or something like that to make it easier to locate the new information.

 

cmecu

We beat Kael after 3 nights of attempts , and now are offcially in Hyjal. We goofed around doing the first encounter and got to wave 8 ( seems likes its going to be a fun place )

Any how, I trying to shape my rogue, into being the most effective, and getting the best pieces for him to make him optimal. I have patience to wait for a specific items to drop that will be the best for me. I just dont know what I need to be looking for.

I seen the Rogue spead sheet, and i tried to figure every thing out on it. But I dont think understand it fully. I am having trouble figuring out what exactly i need my hit to be at right now. Its at 249, but im still missing about 5 % ( according to recount ) Right now I have Alar's Fist / Kings defender sword ( didnt have any other off hand sword at the moment , and waiting for one to drop for me ) which i took over my vashj / merc dagger ( the fist was giving me alot more dps then daggers ) I need to figure out what gear i need to be looking for in Hyjal, and also what gear i missed or should had gotten back in TK, SSC.
I see some non set items drop, like the Leggings of Murderous Intent dropped last night from kael, and i didnt know if they would had been better then deathmantle legs. I need to get my future figured out in what i want in gear. Any help would be great thanks.

On a side note, i seen that mace Kael drops that restores energy or rage on hit, are their any rogues that use this mace, and like it over other weapons, or is its dps weak compared to other specs.

 

FromTheAshes

I have a small question about offhand sword spec. My raiding experience extends to za and Gruuls mostly. Our last gruuls run i replaced my merc glad shiv(with mongoose) with gladiators off hand sword ( no mongoose) , and snagged sword spec along with fist spec (im main handing rage) I noticed a significant increase ( 6-7%) to my total dps that fight. is offhand sword spec really that good? or can this be attributed to skewed stats? i plan on testing it further myself but i was hoping to hear a few opinions. Thank you.

 

Ozzmar

This is what the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet is for. The equivalence of hit and haste is going to be different for every rogue, so there's no black & white answer for you. Go download the spreadsheet, plug your gear and talents into it, and it'll tell you what stats are best for you.

FromTheAshes,

Well, that depends on what spec you were using with your dagger(s?). If you were Mutilate, then the commonly-held belief is that you'd see about 10-12% more DPS going Fist/Sword.

 

◊ Hanos

What you will find is there is essentially two tiers of gear in T6, so you can wait for the better one or get both. Based on what I know about AiD's loot system, you want to grab both. Here are the various items that you want to pick up with items that are better then T5 equivalent, but worse then the optimal item in ().

Head: Cursed Visions of Sargeras - Illidan, (T6 Helm - Archimonde, better until you can get the 4 piece bonus without it)
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares - Supremus, (Choker of Serrated Blades - More of a PvP Item)
Shoulders: T6 Shoulders - Mother, (Mantle of Darkness - High Warlord, worth getting because there is normally a couple months between High Warlord and Mother)
Cloak - Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape - Teron
Chest - T6 Chest - Illidan, (Nethershadow Tunic - Supremus or Midnight Chestguard - Archimonde both are very close and vastly better then anything T5, and it will be a long time before everyone has T6 Chests)
Bracers - Insidious Bands - Teron, (Deadly Cuffs - Rage, Crit is just worse then Agi and these are about 7-8 DPS worse then the Teron ones)
Gloves - T6, ones off RoS aren't worth using
Belt - Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Vashj (Belt of Deep Shadow - Crafted from SSC/TK or Don Alejandro's from Anetheron)
Legs - T6 - Council, the legs off Kaz'rogal are pretty bad but they are a stem upgrade over T4 and offer some -armor for low AC bosses (all of Hyjal, Teron, Mother and Council)
Boots - Shadowmaster's - Mother, (Blackfeatherlight off Kaz'rogal are basically a DPS sidegrade from Edgewalker's which you already have so not worth picking up except for looks unless they are going to rot)
Rings - Stormrage Signet Ring - Illidan and Signet of Primal Wrath from ZA is ideal (Ring of Deceitful Intent - Shade of Akaman, Ring of Lethality - Hydross and Band of the Ranger General - Kael, are all better then what you have now)
Trinkets - Dragonspine Trophy/Warp-Spring Coil or Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality is ideal, so you really don't need to pick anything up here, if you see a Warp-spring drop, grab it otherwise just wait for the BT Rep Trinket
Weapons - Blade of Infamy - Anetheron and Blade of Savagery - Mother is the best weapon set other then the Warglaives, the daggers are inferior, but probably an upgrade from what you have now (if you can get 2 of them, and they tend to drop like candy).

First off King's Defender on a rogue is a massive failure, get a Latro's or a S1/2/3 OH Sword from PvP, you won't have another option till you get to Mother which won't be for several months at best. The amount of hit you need depends on your gear, use the gear guild above and gem to get your meta requirements, and stack hit everywhere else. As long as you stay under 363, you will be fine and really can't go wrong with +10 Hit or +5 Hit/+ Agi gems in every slot.

Those legs suck, the Kara, T5, T4 and Badge ones are all just as good or better.

Mace Spec sucks, it is a DPS Warrior weapon or Arena Toy for rogues, your fist will do more DPS as will the sword off Anetheron.



It is really that good, because it causes you to hit with your MH weapon when it procs.

 

FromTheAshes

No, between previous attempts and the most current ones ive main handed rage the whole time. I picked the dagger because it was the fastest and that seemed good enough a decision to me for combat potency, poisons procs etc. So to reiterate My previous attempts i main handed Rage(Mongoose) with Merciless Gladiators Shiv(Mongoose) as Fist spec. I changed it up to Rage(Mongoose) and Gladiators Slicer Offhand(No enchant) with hybrid sword/fist spec. even with lack of mongoose on the offhand, less dps, slower speed, i saw greater dps overall due to oh sword spec proccing main hand Rage hits. What im attempting to clarify is why it accounted for a 6-7% increase to my overall dps. do i need more data? Of course.But i wanted more thoughts weighing hybrid sword/x specs against pure fists or maces.

 

◊ Hanos

Going to have to go with use the spreadsheet as I really don't feel like plugging your specific gear into it for you, but I would say that it is well within the range of possibility. The use of MH Fist/OH Dagger is a bit of a wasted spec, so by going to MH Fist/OH Sword you are going to see an increase, the exact amount depends on too many other variables, but 6-7% is too high for a lower DPS unenchanted OH. My guess is you got some lucky procs, higher DPS time, better debuffs on the mob or something. Unless you can provide WWS Parses this is kind of pointless to try to figure out. There is plenty of information on relative ranking of specs in the first post, and if you have more specific questions consult the spreadsheet or provide a WWS Parse.

 

enno

What I kinda miss in this topics starting post and which is a huge mystery to a lot of rogues is stuff like, "you can't dodge when stunned", "Players can't block attacks from behind them", Players can dodge attacks from behind", etc.

Perhaps somebody could add those? (and I'm not summing the variations up caus I'm not sure myself)

 

• Latito

-Players and Mobs can't dodge, block or parry while casting or stunned (but an attack can miss still)
-Players and Mobs can't block or parry attacks from behind (which is partly why rogues should ALWAYS attack from behind..)
-Players canNOT dodge attacks from behind
-Mobs CAN dodge attacks from behind



2 additions to what Hanos said a few posts ago - S3 MH sword is better than Blade of Infamy, if you can get it.. do so. Socketing all +10 hit and +5hit/+5agi is good - as long as you have 2 slots with a blue (likely purple) gem to get your RED Meta requirement. Generally the idea is to find the best two socket bonuses that require a blue gem and stick a +5agi/+7stam gem in those 2 slots, then fill everything else with either +10 hit (yellow sockets) or +5hit/+5agi (red sockets). In the gear setup Hanos listed.. that would be T6 Shoulders and Chest. Armory me if you want an example - note I still need a new belt.



Re: Hit vs Haste
Like Hanos/Ozz said, check the spreadsheet. In a general sense, hit is nice because it turns a miss (which cannot proc Mongoose, Executioner, DST, Combat Potency, Sword Spec, WF, etc) into a hit (which can proc all that stuff). However in terms of the damage increase from the extra attacks (ignoring proc'd attacks like SS and WF).. Haste will be better for any moderately geared rogue.

Example:
5% miss, 4% dodge, 30% crit, ~6% dmg reduction from glancing (not exact, but close enough for demonstration) and the rest will just hit
This works out to (5 * 0) + (4 * 0) + (30 * 2) + (6 * 0) + (50 * 1) = 110% damage per attack. That is, after averaging out crits, misses, dodges, etc.. you will be doing an average of 110% 'base' damage. Adding an extra 1% hit does not multiply your dps by 1%, but rather ADDS 1 to the total, giving you 111%. Adding 1% haste will make you miss, crit, dodge, hit, etc more - a full 1% multiplicative increase in dmg done on your auto attacks. In this example, that would be 111.1% dmg per attack - a small difference for sure, one which is then balanced out by the increase in procs you get with adding hit rating on PPM effects.

When you change the hit table a bit you can skew things such that hit will be even better than haste even w/o the extra procs. For example, a crappy rogue with 15% miss, 6% dodge, 6% glance reduction, 20% crit.. you end up with an average of only 93% dmg per attack. Haste still multiplies to 93.93%, but hit adds to 94%.

Change things the other way to 0% miss, 4% dodge, 6% glance reduction and 45% crit, you get a total of 135% dmg per attack - haste now bumps you to 136.35, hit to 136.



If this is making you go "woah.. you lost me there".. just use and trust the damn spreadsheet - it does this all for you.
(sorry this post was quite unformatted and such)

 

cmecu

Thanks for replying Hanos . That all sounds good for when I finally get to there. I dont expect to be seeing any of all that BT loot for a while yet. Plus last night was our first Kael kill, and first venture into Hyjal. I know my gear can be optimized better then what i currently have for the content we raid.. Which is every thing up to Hyjal. I will rpelace my offhand. I just had it as a temporary thing until i got me something better for an offhand sword.
I will need to back track on SSC loot and TK that i have missed out on due item not dropping, or i was at work and couldnt raid that night.
I still am one of the top dps, depending on encoutner.
I mainly need to know what my hit should be at . I didnt see any hit guide you were talking about other then that rogue dps spread sheet, but that thing gives me a headache to look at. Its too much for me to take in.
I appeciate all the help you have said so far

 

Busko

Vulajin i use the speed sheet. I was just interested to know if you could make like you said black and white convention of haste to hit. With my current gear only a few items i can find as upgrade. But its ok i will just laborate a bit more i guess with the sheets. Thanks for the reply.

 

◊ Hanos

The spreadsheet is really simple but can be overwhelming if you let it. For simplicity, you can now import your gear and spec, hit the Items Macro button in the top left corner of the gear sheet and sit back while it tells you how much of an upgrade every item is.

From T5, if at all possible you want to pick up the belt off Vashj and the gun from Al'ar, everything else will be replaced in BT/Hyjal.

As far as hit rating there is no hard cap, it all has to do with the other stats on the items. For example, my Ring of Lethality has 19 Hit on it, but the Signet of Primal Wrath from ZA has 0 hit, however the Signet is a better ring and will increase my DPS. The rule of thumb is, gem for hit, and use the best items available, 250 is a threshold I personally wouldn't drop below, but due to the fact that I didn't like T5, I personally haven't dropped below 300 in close to a year.

Gems: 2 Purple, 2 Red, the rest Yellow unless you are approaching 363 hit or will go over (you won't with the set we listed), in which case you would use some more +5 Agi/+5 Hit gems (most of the ones you see in my gear are from before the +10 Hit gem was added to the game, otherwise I would only have 2, and I haven't bothered to have them replaced).

 

Dontmindme

I believe both spreadsheets show stat equivalences. If you look toward the bottom of the Talent page, you can see the value of each stat relative to one Agility. I would normally suggest optimizing it by hitting the Calculate AEP Macro button there, but a few items break that process now. It may still work for you, but it might not. If it bugs for you, you will need to unequip a proc related trinket and replace it with something semi-equivalent and click it again. Either way, you should be able to see the relative relationship between Haste and Hit rating.