• Vulajin

As a general answer to this type of question, there are two points:

1) Yes, you can make a generalized comparison between two different stats, and the answer to that type of comparison is given by the EP weights in the first post. For a pretty good majority of rogues, those weights will give you a satisfactory comparison of two arbitrary pieces of gear.

2) The comparison between two different stats does vary depending on your current gear and the buffs you receive in raids. The math for this comparison is sufficiently complex that you should simply use the spreadsheet to obtain an exact comparison for your gear and buffs.

 

Tobb

What is the thought on the value of Armor Pentration...

I can keep my 2pc T4 bonus (gloves, helm) or use S3 helm.

I also have Arm Pen from Dory's Embrace, S3 Chest to get a total of 280 arm pentration.

Does it calculated in the spreadsheet?

 

Akken

Thanks for the answer to my last post. As I continue to work on this new toon I guess I've slammed into a gemming question. I also know these types of questions are better answered by the DPS spreadsheet but to be honest I don't see where to enter my stats/numbers, so I assumed you only can select your gear and in the event that your item isn't listed then well simply put you can't (so I gave up on it) (I'm probably wrong of course but moving on).

This is a reroll toon btw (still pre Kara as well).

Ok to start my stats are as follows.

Attack Power: 1216
Hit: 232
Crit 17.16%

Unbuffed my sustained DPS (non raid environment) is 530. I'm not sure if that's even good for those horrid stats to begin with. *could someone respond on this also I want to be sure I am doing my job even if my gear sucks.*

Ok I have a chance to make a few minor upgrades that will give me 6 gem slots to play with.

2 red, 1 yellow, that trigger a socket bonus of 4 crit rating.
2 red, 1 blue, that opens up a none dps bonus so won't list it.

I understand using +4hit/4agi gems in red and +8hit in yellow when trying to get the bonus unless near hit cap. But would throwing 3 x +8 hit in the second item I listed (no useful socket bonus), and then 2 x +4hit/4agi with 1 +8hit in the other item be a wise move?

All of my stats are so low I'm not sure if I should just balance instead of pumping up one of the items with +hit.

Side note: I will lose about 30 Attack Power when switching my items to the upgrades.

Sorry so long.

 

koaschten

Out of curiosity, is there a meta gem that requires 2 blue 4 red which i am not aware of? Unless there is, you use two red gems for... nothing?

 

cmecu

Thanks again hanos. I am heading to area 52 right now , because my off hand is something i can take care of right now. I was thinking , should i stay sword offhand, or get the offhand fist, that way i can spend the sword points else where , like Vile poisons maybe ? would that be higher dps , or staying fist sword.

As for the spread sheet, i must have been using an old one or something, becuase it didnt have some of the loot i have on it. I found the newest and updated one.. Only thing it said was in the upper right and left corner ( where it says import armory ectect .. ) is this will not work with open office.

i dont have Microsoft excel , and the free trial one I downloaded does not allowed Macros to be enabled, or really any thing enabled.
I am not sure how else i can import my armory unless i buy excel .. any help with that ?
Thank you.

 

FromTheAshes

Something i didint take into account the enhance shaman in my group got a ton of gear upgrades from the last time i had raided with her. i asked her and she said her crit chance had increased by almost 4%, so i could probably attribute the increased damage to more unleashed rage uptime as well. sorry for being vague, but i dont have excel or any program to use the spreadsheets.

 

koaschten

Consider downloading OpenOffice then perhaps. Its freeware and the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet got a OO Version.

 

Dontmindme

In fact, the basic functions of the DPS spreadsheet also works with Open Office...the Macros are just added features.

 

cmecu

Yeah i just used the one for open office. I got every thing filled in exactly to how my character is.

But something is wrong..

The Spread sheet has my Current hit as 262 but in reality in the gamne its only 249
The spread sheet says my Optimal hit is 248 but in game .. who knows.. but i do know according to Recount dmg meter i still am showing about a 6.9 % miss rate.

Those numbers arent backwards either, its exactly what the spread sheet says.

I would really like to get the other spread sheet for excel working, but i dont have excel, and no way to import my armory into the spread sheet.

 

koaschten

As you just learned how to manually fill out the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, this works for the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet in OO either as Dontmindme mentioned.

As for the +hit difference in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, you might want to have a look at the buffs tab to see if the hit food was active and if you got the same gemming/enchanting in the sheet.

 

• Vulajin

Finally finished off some work I had been doing on the first post. Please take a look over it and provide feedback, I'm particularly interested to know if people think any sections are too verbose now. I tried to incorporate a lot of additional information, but may have been a bit too comprehensive.

Also, if anyone thinks there's some topic that I've been overlooking, please let me know. There have been a LOT of pages of discussion in this thread, I may very easily have missed some gem of a suggestion at some point.

 

Furizaa

First of all: Thanks for the hard work in this thread and please excuse my bad english. Regardless the new clearification in the first Post, it's still a heavy discussion on my server what mainhand-enchant is the one which gives you more DPS (in T6 and eqivalent equip). The old Mongoose vs Executioner thread seems to have no point at the end about this case (saying Exe is the better enchant for Fury Warriors). The Spreadsheet backups the conclusion given in the first Post and it's also my point of view - but... jeah... not the opinion of all rogues
Thanks for your trouble

 

koaschten

Furizaa, ask yourself two questions:
1. is curse of recklessness up?
2. is fairie fire up?

If you can answer both with yes, have 4/5 t6 with some signet of primal wrath, MotB/WSC you will find out that Executioner is superior in any situation.
If you fail to answer yes on one or both questions, low armor bosses will favour Executioner and high armor bosses will turn in favour of mongoose.

It's all in the sheets.

The point is, how close to zero armor are you without executioner when you have "your standard debuffs" on a boss.

 

• Aldriana

Comments:

1) When displaying damage comparisons between the main builds, it seems to me that you're reporting them to rather more significant figures that we reasonably can know. Or more accurately: the accuracy with which they are stated implies that it's differences between very specific sets of gear/buffs/etc, rather the general difference between specs (which would have more variance). So I might report them to at most a tenth of a percent if not the whole percent.

2) I'm not sure "There is no "minimum" chance to miss melee attacks, nor to be dodged or parried." needs to be bolded. I think most people have gotten the idea on this one already, so while it's still a good piece of information to state, it doesn't really need to be emphasized.

3) It's actually not 100% clear to me that Thundering Skyfire Diamond beats Swift Skyfire Diamond in the general case. I mean, I'm nitpicking a bit, but: it means you can replace Cat's Swiftness with Dexterity on boots, and don't need to socket blue gems for metagem requirements, so you're really getting something like 6 agi and 8 hit in addition to the 24 attack power, which actually makes SSD somewhat competitive with TSD.

More to the point: the only situation where you *wouldn't* use RED would be it for some reason you can't get the metagem requirements for it... meaning you can't use TSD either. So there's absolutely no reason you would ever want to use TSD.

Of course, really, there's no reason not to just use RED, so I might just rephrase that section to have more of a "use RED. Period. Nothing else comes close" feel to it.

4) While we're nitpicking: with the posted stat weightings (which, honestly, feel a bit off to me in some places, but that's sort of a separate issue) rank Balanced Nightseye ahead of Shifting Nightseye for all gear levels. Now, clearly with Kings Shifting does come out ahead, but it might be worth noting that if one consistantly raids without Kings, and particularly at low gear levels, Balanced can be worth using as well as Shifting. You mention this for Hemo, but it applies to Combat s well.

5) While we're on the topic of stat weightings: am I correct in assuming that you made these stat estimates with very few AP buffs? Since, for instance, with the default gear in the 0.9.3 Gear Sheet (which is mid-to-high end T6), I get very different stat weightings:

Str: 1.1
Agi 2.3
Crit: 1.9
Hit: 2.64
Expertise: 2.9
Armor Pen: .33
Haste 2.26
Metagem: 102

Which is really pretty different than what you have posted. I suspect the answer is one of buffs, but I don't think the default buffs in the Gear sheet are *that* unreasonable for T6 guild, so... if you're posting extremely low-buff numbers, it might be worth making note of that fact; and I for one would recommend posting higher-buff numbers, since, lets be honest, how many rogues raid without Blessing of Might and Battle Shout, even if they don't have much else?

6) On Unique gems: I question the inclusion of the PvP crit rating gems; for many rogues, 10 crit is still inferior to 8 hit. Also note that as of 2.4, some of these gems will no longer be unique.

7) On totems: it might be worth noting that ret pallies in your group is almost a guarantee that you will get WF. It may additionally be worth saying a few words about totem twisting - that some shamans do it, basically. Fundamentally, the message here should probably be "Check if your shaman is using WF, and, if not, use IP MH".

 

malchar

I'd like to give a big thanks to the people who have contributed the knowledge collected in this thread. It is rather large, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed already. I'm wondering if there is any UI mod that someone would recommend that calculates and displays equivalence points in-game. Better yet, is there anything that will do the more complex spreadsheet calculations in-game?
I have found a few mods but they simply have preset eq values for stats or are out of date. I'd love to use the spreadsheets that have been developed but I don't have Excel. Either way, thanks for this great thread.

 

• Vulajin

1) You're correct that they're based on a particular set of gear and buffs. Specifically, the tier 4 rankings for each build also assume the same gear and buffs used to determine the tier 4 EP weights. It's likely that including two-digit decimal precision for the differences encourages more of a distinction between each build than can reasonably be made, since slight differences in buffs and gear may shift the relative rankings. I'll fix that up.

2) Fair enough, but I feel that the "minimum chance to miss melee attacks" and "minimum required level of hit" theories will never die out as long as idiots play this game.

3) Quite right, will be changed.

4) Also true, but rather than address this immediately I'll address the next point first.

5) The tier 4 EP weights definitely assume a rather different selection of buffs than the tier 5 and tier 6 ones. The tier 4 weights assume a set of buffs that a rogue might have in a 10-man raid; so there's no Blessing of Might (one paladin providing Salvation was assumed), but there is Battle Shout. There's assumed to be a shaman providing Windfury, but not Unleashed Rage. The tier 5 and tier 6 weights, on the other hand, assume a much stronger set of buffs, including Blessing of Might, Unleashed Rage, and Leader of the Pack. I considered adding Expose Weakness but I'm not sure if survival hunters are used by a representative majority of raiding guilds, even at tier 6.

As for why the weights differ so greatly from what your sheet suggests, I'm at a loss. I'll do some double-checking to make sure I haven't screwed anything up.

6) This is also likely related to issue number 5. Also, the 2.4 change is already noted in the section.

7) I'll tweak the section a bit.

 

• Aldriana

Oh, one other idea: it might simplify life for people to just list the top item or two for each slot at each level of gear, i.e., T4/Heroics, T5, and T6 (with ZA nontimed counting as either 4 or 5, and timed ZA as one tier higher). The EP system is certainly a better way of handling that in general, but just as a 15 second "what should I be going for" computation there might be some value.

 

Arindelest

On Executioner vs Mongoose: You might want to add something saying that mob debuffs and the plethora of 6200 armor bosses at the T6 level influence Executioner's viability. At the moment you only mention passive armor penetration and procs (gear).

 

folderol

On that specific subject, ever since I've become the tri-spec rogue for the raid, I've noticed that I now have quite consistently some misses on my Hemorrage attacks.
I'm at a loss to explain the miss rate since I raid with a hit rating close to 300 fully buffed.

Some parses:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

This seems to be Hemo attack specific and still happens after 2.3.2.
Are there any theories on that or is it just yet another Hemo bug ?

 

koaschten

I just had to check your armory to see if you had maxed weapon skill to make sure, but this is definitly more than strange. You had 2 misses and a dodge in the more recent log. This shouldnt be able to happen with your 5/5 precision and 268 hit rating?! Gruul doesn't have a debuff that will increase your miss-rate.... totally lost there. I'd have to agree there that it looks either like a bug or an error in the WWS parsing. Do you have the original combatlog file somewhere?

 

folderol

I don't think I still have it but I can easily capture a new one tonight or next Tuesday.
I usually exprience 1-2% miss rate on Hemo per raid regardless of boss (it even happens on trash... )

 

koaschten

A clean WoWCombatLog.txt and a short post when you are shown with exact gear you used on the armory might give us more insight.

 

katheavus

hey guys someone on the rogue forums is claiming that a 5 snd 5 rupture rotation is better than anything else and he posted a wws and his damage is really good...what gives??

WoW Forums -> Dear: PVE Rogue gods,

i dont understand at all would appreciate an explanation

 

saedo

There's nothing all that surprising. From the looks of it, the WWS is of Teron and a high dps one so I assume it's a farm status full T6 group. At that level of gear SS scales to be better than doing Ruptures so 5s/5r is just fine.

Though, it's a bit weird to advocate it when it's a KZ level rogue asking about cycles and 2pc T4 bonus in that thread. At that level and gear, Rupture should be used more with the 1s/5r with T4.

To get exact cycles for your gear, plug them into your favorite neighborhood spreadsheet.

 

katheavus

yeah but...rupture is only 25 energy and sinister is 40...plus you have a good chance of getting a free combo point and an energy refund...