Cos-

edit: oops wrong rogue

 

Darkwyng

I was talking with another rogue on my server and he said I had "too much" hit rating compared to my AP/crit. Is there any validity to this statement? I currently have unbuffed 322 hit rating, 1712 attack power, and 22.67% crit. Like, is there some sort of mathematical "good" ratio to have?

 

• Latito

Until you have over 363 hit rating (including food, assuming precision and no imp faerie fire), you can never have "too much" hit rating. You CAN however make poor gear choices to stack hit to the exclusion of other stats. Pick the item with the highest dps, regardless of hit.

Use the spreadsheet, figure out whats best for you.

 

Arindelest

By performing a longer cycle you are essentially trading Rupture damage for Sinister Strike damage. Since Sinister Strike scales better than Rupture, there is a point at which it becomes better to concentrate your energy using SS whenever possible (Read: running the longest possible cycle, 5s/5r).

I'm not sure what that inflection point is but you can clearly see this fact by looking at the value of 2pc T4 to a Karazhan-geared rogue vs a T6-geared rogue. The former will gain much more benefit, since his stats are lower, to doing additional Ruptures, while the guy in T6 will gain much less of a benefit from trading some SS damage for Rupture damage.

 

Jakani

In fact, when doing 5 pt finishers, you will always get the refund. The reason 5s/5r is better at high gear levels is because you're spending 0 energy on finishers at the expense of a longer cycle (i.e. less rupture uptime). However, since SS scales better than rupture, when you reach higher gear levels, you're far better off spending most of your time SS'ing. But since a 5 pt rupture is free damage, you use it whenever you can.

Edit: Arindelest explained it better than I did.

 

• Aldriana

So, to be clear on the rupture vs SS debate:

When you do 5s5r, you are spending no energy whatsoever on finishers, as Relentless Strikes always gives a full refund. Hence all energy is being spent on SS.

When you do, say, 3s5r, on average you will spend 10 point of energy per cycle on finishers; hence, this is 10 energy not being spent on Sinister Strike. Hence, you are having fewer Sinister Strikes per unit time, in exchange for having a shorter cycle and thus higher rupture uptime. And all but the highest gear levels, the higher rupture uptime proves to be worth more damage than the Sinister Strikes, so the compressed cycle is better. However, at ultra-high gear levels - end T6 rogues with MH Warglaive and lots of raid buffs - the damage done by Sinister Strikes actually catches up to the Rupture damage, and 5s5r becomes the more damaging cycle.

 

folderol

I checked again the issue on yesterday's combat log and it appears to be a bug in WWS: all the miss listed for Hemorrage are actually parried in the combat log.

 

◊ Shaker

One other note - 5s/5r is a damn easy cycle to run and has enough slack that you can easily run it while being distracted and whatnot. In this sense, I'm advocating its use for raid leader or other rogues who have duties that require slighly less than 100% attention on noticing exactly when you get CPot procs and whatnot. I've been using 5s/5r (though now that I just got the Vashj belt, I'm getting a 2.9s/5r recommendation so I may have to switch .. :E) and it's been doing fine. I gain a slight amount of DPS by not falling out of a cycle that's hard to maintain when I'm swapping people's groups and trying to pan cameras around to see who's standing in Vashj BatPoo and stuff.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

leebis

Latito I just noticed that on your last Gorefiend kill you didn't rupture. Were you testing a theory?

Wow Web Stats

 

leebis

Double post

 

hannigaholic

With regard to the 5s/5r discussion, the initial reason to adopt a 5s/5r cycle is simply that the gear which allows you to maintain 1s/5r becomes sufficiently worse than the gear that does not once you reach 4-piece T5 bonus, long before the issue of whether Rupture or SS is a better use of your energy becomes relevant.

 

Herb

Rupture both has higher base DPE and scales better with AP than SS, at any attainable gear level. So replacing "Rupture uptime" with "SS uptime" cannot yield higher DPS.


(Note that Rupture scales better with AP even with 0% armor, and up to ~65% crit)

 

Aerlyn

Hello all, I have been struggling lately on what rotation to use, according to the spreadsheet the suggest rotation would be 3s/5r, deciding to test that out, I went to the good old blasted lands and found myself a Servant of Allistarj to test the aforementioned rotation on. The outcomes left me puzzled, I have to admit I was sure to achieve some better results.
Recount tells me I averaged 953.6 dps on a lvl 55 mob, thus having the upperhand in terms of weapon skill vs monster defense skill. I was using IP MH and DP in OH, using the rotation (starting with SS activating SnD, getting to 3cp refreshing the SnD then all the way up to 5cp and rupture) I found myself unable to keep it for a long, there were times in which I was at 5 cp with my previous rupture still ticking and 9 seconds left, and times in which i had like 6 seconds left on SnD and only with 3 or 4 CPs. In order to keep the SnD always up and running I found myself relying a lot on combat potency procs (according to recount noone of my weapon swings missed) and ruthlessness ones. I had sporadically times in which with this rotation SnD was down, be them half second or 2-3 seconds long, before I had 3 cps in order to refresh it.
Now the question that comes to mind, If I cant' keep up that rotation against a lvl 55 monster thus getting the most out of talents like Combat Potency, I assume that against a lvl 73 raid boss the things can only get worst. Should I use a 3 or 4 cp rupture being the difference in ticks minimal, or the loss of the free finisher will make the situation even worst?

PS, I was unbuffed on this small test and did not used skills like Blade furry or AR, nor trinkets (BL brooch, Abacus).

 

Croll.Tvc

Greetings.. I got a question i want to know cuz its for me very weird to se this..

As we know in the lastest Patch Mace Spec have been changed To Crit chance just like fist weapons and it adds a stun effect.. now.. what i dont understand is..

How you can Get Fist+Sword spec and Combat Fist Spec to do more damage than Mace+sword and Combat Mace spec.?
as they are basicly the same spec.. only thing that changes it is that the mace spec add an xtra effect when you spec it.

Are you testing with same level weapons ? Fx. like pvp ones with same speed and stats ?

Tier 4:

1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.12%) / Combat daggers (-0.51%)
2. Combat fists (-1.10%) / Combat mace+sword (-1.80%)
3. Combat maces (-3.27%)
4. Hemo+swords (-5.06%) / Hemo+Combat Potency (swords) (-5.62%)



Tier 5:

1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.22%)
2. Combat mace+sword (-1.15%) / Combat fists (-1.45%) / Combat daggers (-1.49%)
3. Combat maces (-2.64%)
4. Hemo+swords (-4.95%)



Tier 6:

1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.29%) / Combat mace+sword (-0.93%)
2. Combat fists (-1.71%)
3. Combat maces (-2.52%)
4. Combat daggers (-3.16%)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here we are with my final question.

I just want to know the fact behind that fists dos more damage than mace's after the revamp in the Mace spec talant ?

Regards
Croll

 

Giske

Mace spec is not crit chance, its increased critical damage done.

 

Melnor

Just to clarify, Mace spec is a +% modifier to critical strike damage, not an increase to your critical strike chance.

 

Croll.Tvc

allRight something i have overseen.. good good thanks for point this out.. :-) /cheer

 

• Latito

An excellent observation. Also note the complete lack of prot warrior in the raid (intentional), the Expose Armor debuff on Gorefiend and my 2/2 Imp Expose Armor talent selection.

I lose marginal personal dps, all other physical dps (3 hunters, 1 other rogue, 2 dps warrior, 2 cats, bear MT, 2 enhancement shams, 1 ret pally.. we stacked melee....) get a 2-4% dps boost over sunder. If you dig REALLY deep you'll even notice that he parried an Expose Armor - wow did that throw me.

Good find tho Flateous and I try and take turns doing Imp EA each week, if he's able to make this weeks Teron, I'm shooting for 2500 dps (just got 4pc T6). Definitely worth having 1 rogue do Imp EA if you don't have a prot warrior in the raid, probably still well worth it with a prot warrior dps'ing on a single-tank boss.

 

◊ Hanos

Typo, I meant 2 Purple, 2 Orange and the rest yellow. As far as I know the 2 Purples can't fulfill both the 2 Blue and 2 Red Requirement for Relentless Earthstorm.

[quote=cmecu;622768]Thanks again hanos. I am heading to area 52 right now , because my off hand is something i can take care of right now. I was thinking , should i stay sword offhand, or get the offhand fist, that way i can spend the sword points else where , like Vile poisons maybe ? would that be higher dps , or staying fist sword.

Get the sword! Looking at your amory it looks like you already did. There is a very good sword, that drops very frequently from the second boss in Hyjal, however there is no Fist weapons in T6. The OH sword will serve you well with both a fist or sword MH, the OH fist will be worse then the sword in every situation.

Just use the drop down menus and fill it in manually, it is what we have been doing for the last 2 years anyway. For each item there is a drop down box where you can select the item you have.

No, odds are he is an idiot. As others have said, you can't have too much hit until you go over 363, however, you can make stupid gearing decisions like using [Socrethar's Girdle] over [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], because you would lose hit. Basically if you are using the best items available to you and gemming for hit, you will be fine, if you are not using better items because you would lose hit, that could be an issue. A low crit rating isn't a bad thing and isn't uncommon with swords, you really don't start to see higher crit rates until late T5 or T6 (when you can't avoid it on gear).

That parse is "interesting", I am more curious how he managed to vanish 2 items in a 2:26 fight, but yeah, the lack of Rupture or any finisher other then S&D makes me think there is something wrong with the parse.

 

flaminghomer

Yes they can.

 

halfpint

Does the 4 points in deadliness change the Atk. Power ep to 1.08? If that is the case, then doesn't that influence the strength and agility values also?

Also as a feature request, can you add a column for a shadowstep build? I'm mostly interested in seeing the ep weights with sinister calling and deadliness and how they compare to all the other builds.

 

royaljester

I'm wanting to get some WWS parses of soem of my guilds fights going and just thought to myself, "Everyone says the wws and recap/recount/swstats will be diff". Anyone know how far off wws parses are from most dmg meters? I normally run SWStats and have yet to see any of our locks/rogues (even with glaive OH) parse 2700dps for gorefiend. Then, I look at the site and see hundreds of rogues parsing that with sub 3:30 gorefiend fights. Thoughts, ideas?

 

• Aldriana

Rupture does scale better than Sinister Strike by itself, and if we were talking about swapping out Sinister Strikes for 5 point Ruptures directly, you'd be right. However, the situation is slightly more sophisticated than that, since we're trading SS damage for a slightly shorter cycle which thus implicitly increases rupture uptime; hence, there's a weighting factor that aids Sinister Strike in this matter. I'm not going to go through absolutely all the details (you can find them in the spreadsheet if you want them, which demonstrates this effect rather clearly), but the gist of it is as follows:

A 3s5r cycle requires 6.8 SS and 1 Rupture, which costs a total of 282 energy. Using your numbers, a Rupture does 1000 + .24 * AP damage, and a Sinister Strike 649.3 + .2761 * AP. Thus, the 6.8 SS + 1 Rupture of 3s5r do a total of 5415 + 2.12 * AP damage. Dividing by 282 gives the DPE of this cycle component as 19.2 + 7.52 kAP.

A 5s5r cycle requires 8.8 SS and 1 Rupture, which costs a total of 352 energy. Again with your numbers, these attacks do a totalk of 6714 + 2.67 AP * damage. Dividing by 352 we find that the DPE of this cycle component is 19.1 + 7.59 kAP.

Equating these two, we find the crossover point occurs at 1900 AP; that is, under 1900 AP, 3s5r has better DPE; over 1900 AP, 5s5r has better DPE.

Now, of course, the stats you specify are a bit unrealistic even for a full T6 rogue, so in reality the breakpoint is usually a bit higher than this; but as a raid-buffed T6 rogue can easily have 3k AP with 40%+ crit and 500 ArPen, it is very much possible to get to the point where 5s5r catches up with 3s5r.

Pretty sure the 2xVanish thing is an artifact of the way vanishes are logged; if you watch the combat log, you get two separate Vanish messages, "You cast Vanish" and "You gain Vanish" (or something like that) - one for the actual spell, and one for the resulting buff. WWS isn't smart enough to track this, so all vanishes show up as two vanishes.

 

• Latito

Look at any WWS parse - it records vanish twice.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
or even YOUR wws, Hanos: Wow Web Stats ;P

And as mentioned (I'm sure you were writing your post as I posted mine).. I was on EA duty.
Wow Web Stats
Yep.. he parried my EA. Let EA drop for like 4 seconds when the parry happened, completely wasn't expecting my finisher to not.. finish (we're all spoiled by Surprise attacks I guess, damn those "boss spin around instant cast" spells). Let EA drop again later in the fight for ~0.4 sec after some really crappy Combat Potency and ruthlessness procs.

Also, seconding the "2 purples work just fine for RED". Check my armory, I have 1 orange (Shadowmaster boots bonus) and 2 purple (shoulder and chest). RED works just fine.

 

Grunge

By the way what kind of a rotation were you using? 5snd/5ea?

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