Wow, today is a day for new discoveries. I always assumed that the gem would count as one or the other, but not both, now I get to try to convince my GM to give me a couple more Lionseyes instead of selling them on the AH.

Also, I had never noticed the double counting of Vanish.

Out of curiosity, why were you doing EA, as opposed to having the DPS Warrior sunder?

okay thanks guys

so how do you do a 5snd 5 rup rotation?

get SND up...sinister up to 5 points...pool energy...SND before your first SND runs out then spam SS to points, rupture, then spam SS...pool energy..and SND before it runs out?
do you keep spamming SS even when u have 5 combo points? a little confused about htis

As he said, he took 2/2 Imp EA (which fully talented is better than sunder) - probably trying to trick out as much DPS as possible.

I don't know about hundreds, you have to stack the hell out of a group, hit them with heroisms, drums, etc to break 2500, breaking 2700 is even tougher. WWS will be higher then SWS/Recap/Recount, because it does individual calculations for time in combat, whereas the rest are based on the raids time in combat (to some degree). You aren't going to see 2700 DPS individuals on a 3:30 kill unless you hit that group with every heroism in the raid.

To get 2700 you are going to have to be well under 3 mins for the most part, unless you know something I don't. However, please link all of these 2700 DPS parses, because I am seeing a couple people just over 2700 in the top 10 or so, but never more then 1 per raid, and in the case of rogues they are all MH Warglaive rogues with Dragonspines (which on the other hand makes me feel pretty good about my 2583 last week without either).

See, I think my best on that fight is like 1900ish (before I got 4pc, some off set peices and when our ms warrior was still...well ms) and I thought I was doign fairly well. Now, that includes a shaman, 3 rogues, an MS warrior (BF and imp shout--no sapphire). We normally get 2 heros, sometimes 3 if we're lucky and I think I was still near the top with a lock barely beating me. Good to know that WWS will probably show a difference in dps, I guess I need to test it out and see what happens.

Yep. There really isn't any other valid rotation - you can't "increase your ea uptime" like you can with rupture. All you could possibly do is squeak in an extra small rupture once in a fight that length.

In such a short fight, my main goal is just to get EA up as FAST as possible - I burn AR 5-10 sec into the fight to get EA up as soon as possible. The slightly smaller SS's I get by burning AR while Teron has higher armor is easily compensated by the massive gains all the physical dps gets by having EA up sooner. I typically go with:
Garrote, SS, SnD, SS, AR, SS to 5 CP, EA.
This is where I either get lucky or it gets tight. If I proc'd ruthlessness, I'm ok. If I got a few combat potency procs, I'm fine. If neither happened - I'm generally around 2 seconds left on SnD with no combo points. Either way.. I SnD as soon as I can in the bad case, or as late as I can in the good case (2-3 combo point SnD, refreshing at the last second).

At that point I have ~25-30 seconds on EA and ~13-21 seconds on SnD. I generally go for a 3-5 second SnD at this point, making sure I leave enough time after I hit it to get 5 points up for EA. I find doing SnD with around 15 sec left on EA is generally ok. Given the previous 25-30 seconds on EA, this means I have 10-15 sec to get my 3-5 combo points for SnD.

After that I can slide into a much more comfortable 5s/5ea cycle for the remainder of the fight.. all 60 seconds of it *sigh*.

Edit: I'm several posts behind.. taking me 30 min to write stuff cause I'm at work :P

If you are at 1900, WWS isn't going to show you at 2500 or 2700 for Teron, odds are you guys simply aren't killing him fast enough to see those kind of numbers (the value of Heroism increases significantly the shorter the fight). Last week WWS showed me at 2563 for Teron, SWS and Recount were at around 2530. The only time you are going to have significant differences between WWS and in-game meters is when you aren't attacking and other members of the raid are (Illidan and Supremus are good examples of this). On Teron, odds are you are attacking from a couple seconds after the pull until he dies, so your DPS time is very close to the raid combat time.

If you are looking to get a 2500 DPS Parse you really need to get well under 3 mins for the kill, which means you need to raid committed to buffing. Stacking Drums, Heroism (probably need 2 of them), and chaining haste pots will also help. Ideally you want a Survival Hunter, a MS Warrior, CoR, FF, 5x Sunder (or talented EA), as well as full buffs. Beyond that it is just DPS like hell.

Hmm, wasn't saying anything about a fixation.

I frequently point questions from rogue alts to this thread, as it is a very good source of info. I was just asking for the table to be filled out for the other spec (I would have requested mutilate also. I just noticed it was missing too). I thought it was a table that objectively stated stat weights between the various specs. I missed the original intention of only comparing feasible specs as defined earlier in your post. Thank you for responding.

I should instead put it this way: the purpose of the post is to help any rogue improve his or her DPS. So that's obviously the intent of the EP weights, to help rogues make informed gear choices to improve their DPS. However, by far the greatest piece of advice I could give a Shadowstep rogue would be to respec something else. As a result, including further information for Shadowstep rogues beyond that is pretty much unnecessary.

Mutilate is missing primariily because we don't really have a good source for Mutilate DPS or gearing info beyond empirical evidence. We're reasonably confident that Mutilate is inferior to combat daggers, hence why a great deal of effort hasn't been expended towards creating better models of Mutilate DPS.

Now, I honestly hate to ask this question (Mostly because I am quite certain what the answer will be), but:

I have for quite some time been told by a whole load of rogues that 169 hit rating is "the optimal amount". I've searched far and wide for an explanation to this claim but seems to be lost - All I can get from them (And there's loads of them on Earthen Ring) is that after 169 hit starts to be worth less and crit would be better to invest in.

I assume that there's some historical reason (Like 169 being max hit before burning crusade, when I weren't playing), but i f there is no such reason, I would be delighted to know the explanation - I have only been in group with said rogues once or twice, but as they largely outgeared me at the time, it was hard to do any reasonable comparison.

The whole question might be a complete bother or just sentimental, but I would like to know (If for nothing else, then for the sake of knowledge itself) - If I can improve in any way I would rather like that!

Your entire server seems to be saturated with idiots. There is no optimal hit rating. Its not 100, its not 200, its not 300.. there just is no optimal amount. In fact, generally speaking hit becomes BETTER then more of it you have. This is due largely to WF and to a lesser extent sword spec, both of which require a landed attack to proc another attack.

169 hit rating is in fact quite low and almost difficult to achieve in anywhere near reasonable gear. Don't pick gear based on the hit rating it has (or doesn't have...). Pick gear based on what does more DPS. Hit is a good stat, and you should be (generally) gemming for it - but it is NOT the only stat.

I have a question or two here about trinket/ability timing, namely when to start busting them out during a fight.

Normally on a boss, I sit back and wait for the tank to hit 5k threat before doing anything (I'm not even auto-attacking, simply sitting and waiting). Once the tank hits that marker, I hop in SS once, SnD, then pop Abacus + Haste Pot + Blade Flurry + AR. The timing on it works well with regard to cooldowns, as on a standard fight I can get in 2-3 of my 2min CD's and an extra AR if the fight runs long. Lately it gives me threat problems with our weaker tanks and leads me to an early vanish and having to back off late in the fight, but I'm getting better at curtailing my trinkets/abilities when I know the tank will have problems with me.

So, my questions. First, would it be better to wait on popping my cooldowns a little bit longer into the fight until, say, I've run one full 1s/5r cycle? This should give the tank a little more time to take a threat lead and keep me from an early vanish and late back-off. Second, should I split the use of AR off of the rest, as in wait to pop it until the other abilities have run their course?

The main reason I pop things right away now is to get as many uses of each ability, trinket and potion per fight as possible. For some reason lately, though, I seem to be having issues building too much threat too early. Most of the time it is on our weaker tanks that are subbing in on a fight, but from time to time I even catch our great tanks as well. Nothing has changed on my end, no changes to rotations, haven't gotten a gear upgrade in months. So I'm overall just curious if there's a better timing for my cooldown use to 1) increase DPS and/or 2) manage my threat better. And, of course, I realize that I may not be able to mutually do both 1 and 2.

Some earlier discussions about it:

[RAID] Boss armor values

Devastate Testing - 25 October - TheorySpot

Basically, it might theoretically be useful with a prot warrior if there is no real danger of threat capping. But it is much more likely to be useful with no prot tanks, as was the case here.

I would say that you should hold off on using AR until after your trinket/BF have run their cycle, and you have started your first 1s/5r cycle. This will allow you to start dpsing when the tank is at 3.5-4k threat, as well as allow for the tank to get a little further ahead before you start making your tps go crazy.

You shouldn't catch your tank until you are about to use your second AR, in which case you will want to vanish just before using it.
I personally make sure that I vanish just after a 5r, then garrote and use a 1s just before using AR. During the AR, since I already have a 5r ticking, I will use the first 5cp for evisc. and use the second 5cp for another rupture. I usually have enough time at the end to ss if ruthlessness didn't proc so that I can keep SnD up without letting it drop.

Using this I am always able to keep Rupture and SnD up for the duration of a boss fight, with ease.

If you're having to back off on dps later in the fight it is a problem with your tanks tps.

As others have said already, your friends are idiots, reread the first post of this thread for more info. Basically if you stick to items designed for rogues, pick the highest item level ones, and then gem for hit/socket bonus/meta requirements (aka getting 4 more AP isn't worth using 2 purples and losing out on the equivalent of 16 AP or more), as long as you don't go over 363, with a standard combat build hit is going to be the most valuable stat point for point that you can get. Mutilate and Deep Sub Agility can be as valuable to slightly more but that is all covered elsewhere.

I want to say 19.6% with precision was the cap before the expansion, but as gear choices were FAR more limited you really didn't have a ton of choices (aka you had your set, AQ Gear or your next tier set), which would have been 196, however it came in increments of 10 so I have no idea where 169 comes from other then someone being a complete idiot or intentionally screwing with people (which has been known to happen "Hey, you want to do crazy raid DPS, go 0/0/61 and max out your Strength, IT'S A SECRET).

It would help to know what content this refers to, because I don't know about you, but we use Misdirects, and the tank normally has 5k threat as soon as he reaches the mob. However, generally you don't want to use cooldowns until all the debuffs are applied, so that you get the maximum benefit out of them. Based on your gear it looks like you are in T5 Content, so I would open up with SS, S&D, 5pt Rupture, SS, S&D, then blow your cooldowns, if this would put you over the threat cap (110%), then do another cycle first and make sure all the debuffs are up (Sunder, CoR, Faerie Fire, Mangle, etc.). Vanish at 75-80% of the bosses health, and you should have a very hard time catching back up to the tank. If you need to weave in a couple feigns to prevent energy capping or pulling aggro do it.

Also, what fights are you having issues on? For example in T5 Morogrim the tank is typically going to start slow and then build up, since he is a little rage starved until the big hits start coming regularly (gets a debuff that slows attack speed and thus Heroic/Auto Attacks). Hydross also hits like a girl until he starts getting stacked up. Generally in T5 you are going to have to hold back a little more on some fights early on due to the mechanics. You are better off starting slow, weaving feigns (not something I generally recommend), then you are not attacking and then jumping in and blowing all your CDs.

One question I have is how long should I be wearing the t4 2pc ? I'm currently 3/5 t5 (legs gloves shoulders) but I only wear gloves as I need the legs for the 2pc t4 (I only have chest and legs of t4) and I have shoulderpads of the Stranger. Would it be better for me to switch to the t5 legs?


I guess the real question I have is how valuable in terms of DPS should we consider the 2pc bonus?


EDIT: Clarification

I think part of the issue I have with the sheet is it assumes we never evis. Even in tank and spanks theres a point where we will evisc/envenom. Granted the t5 2pc doesn't make a difference in your overall DPS for those last few finishers you toss @ 1%, but its still something. Another good example is the vashj fight, where killing elementals we constantly evisc, and on nagas we evisc near the end of their health as well. The spreadsheet doesn't however take any of this into account, and as such does not give the 2pc t5 any DPS value whatsoever. It seems to me to be a bit of over-theorycrafting, and not thinking enough in reality.

Running the numbers for myself, I come up with a less than 8 DPS change from swapping over to vengeful glad's tunic/deathmantle legguards from the 2 peices of nightblade. Also, does the sheet take stamina into account? More specifically the Open Office version, as thats the one I'm currently using. A dead rogue doesn't do any DPS, so I would think that stamina would have some value. Not much, but I would think it would at last weigh it somewhat.

As far as content, yes, we're on T5 working on downing Vashj (which becomes rough when you have some people that can't ever seem to follow directions). Specific fights would indeed be Morogrim, and every once in a while on Hydross, and we do use Misdirects. I had a hell of a time managing threat on Morogrim last week for some reason. Had to do him twice due to a healing mistake, and the first attempt I overran the tank within about 15-20sec. On the second attempt, I decided to slow down and waited for a complete 1s/5r cycle to do anything. Then I popped only my haste CD's but not AR, and within about 20sec I had to vanish because I caught the tank again. I've never had problems like that before on Morogrim, and I didn't change my approach from previous attempts.

I suppose scaling back at the start of the fight might be in order for me, both for threat reasons and other ones that you mentioned (full debuffs applied) that I stupidly hadn't thought about. One more question, though. You mentioned vanishing at roughly 80% of the mob's health. Is there a specific advantage to doing this as opposed to waiting to vanish until you're closer to threat capping? Generally on fights where it doesn't matter who's secondary on the threat list, I try to ride my tank as close as possible before vanishing. Or should 80% generally be when I end up catching the tank anyway?

A few things regarding the DPS Spreadsheet...
If you want Evis numbers you can easily turn Rupturable off in the options to the right of the Talents on the Talent page. This option is there for a reason...

Stamina is given zero weight in the DPS Spreadsheet. As your gear improves, you get a fair amount of stamina anyway. Play your character correctly and I can think of no reason one should get killed. Besides, what's 10 Stamina anyway? 100 health? How often have you screwed up and asked, "if I only had 100 more health?" I think it's entirely more common to experience (so tank dies), hmm..."if only I had 600 more Stamina, I could have survived that 17k crushing."

Now, I'm not saying it's 0 value, but with proper play, it shouldn't really come into question especially since upper level gear tends to have a fair amount of inherent Stamina. Regardless, the value of Stamina is not DPS. You can look at the DPS numbers in the box at the top. Also up top one can look at one's health. You certainly have the option of switching gear around to add health while minimizing DPS loss. The sheet is there to be used as you wish it to be. There are many options and I'm sure people use it in different ways.

As far as Morogrim goes, yes if you open up with all your cooldowns right away you are going to have issues, read up on the mechanics of the fight some more to understand why your tank's threat is going to suck at first, same with Hydross for the reasons I mention, Hydross wait until you have 15 seconds before the switch to use your CD's. Also, as you tank gears up, Morogrim will start off even slower due to dodge/parry strings. Don't plan to use CD's on Morogrim until around 90% or so, to give your tank time to get a lead and to start generating consistent threat.

See the bolded part. 80% is a good rule of thumb and on a lot of threat sensitive fights I can typically hover right under the tank to that point, vanish, then go ape-shit on the boss and not worry about catching him. Around 80% is when you should be making up the initial difference from the misdirect. However, Hydross and Morogrim are exceptions due to the fact that the tank isn't going to generate as much threat right away.

Thanks for the answer, I did expect that to be the truth - I'll be ignoring them for now

As far as Eviscerate goes, there's no reason under *normal* conditions you would ever use Eviscerate over Rupture (yes, there was some math showing that when 4/5 T5 buff is up, you have a ton of AP/Crit, the boss is well debuffed, and mangle is not up, Evisc is the slightly better option, but that's by far the exception). Therefore inherently there's no reason to give the 2pc bonus any value at all, since you'd never be using it for what the spreadsheet models: a tank n' spank fight with no quirks.

Of course you're free to calculate how many times you'd actually use Eviscerate in a certain fight, the damage gain from using the 2pc T5 bonus, and divide that by your time on-target. Then you have a rough DPS estimate for the 2pc bonus which you can put in on the set bonuses tab for the Gear Sheet. Of course since you're looking at quirky (not tank n' spank) fights there's a ton of other factors which would affect gear selection much more than that bonus, such as the increased value of agility, the lower armor of boss adds, etc.

To address the stamina issue, stamina is taken into concern in the Gear Sheet if you're using the "Weighted" totals. Of course it doesn't add to your DPS, and you change the amount of stamina which equals one EP for item selection purposes. Why is stamina modeled? As Aldriana put it before, stamina has some amount of value. Would you trade 1 DPS for 1 Stamina? Probably not. But I'd certainly take 100 stamina over 1 DPS.