Just for argument's sake, let's look at a typical 20/41/0 spec with 4/5 Vile Poisons (1.16 modifier) and no Serrated Blades (no 1.3 modifier). Again, assume 1800 AP:
The obvious counter-argument is that Envenom can crit (200% damage), Rupture cannot. Ignoring energy cost in this example for the time being, Envenom is doing 1357 / 1432
.9476, or 94.76% of the damage of Rupture (and that gap would widen as AP increases). A base crit chance of only 6% would push the average damage of Envenom over that of Rupture (1357 * 1.06 = 1438.42), but the DPE is still lower (41.08).
To get the same DPE out of Envenom, we would need to get 57.28 * 35 = 2004.8 damage from it on average, which is approximately a 47.7% crit rate: 1357 * 1.477 = 2004.289.
I'm obviously not even in T5 content yet, so I can't really comment on how unrealistic it is to even try to get that high of a crit rate, but I'm thinking it probably can't happen easily. I haven't accounted for debuffs on the boss (Mangle, Misery, etc), but I can't imagine they'd provide anything close to the damage buff necessary to have Envenom catch Rupture.
At the moment, this change (if real) seems to be geared more towards 41/20/0 Mutilate specs who can consistently do a 4-5s/4-5r/4-5env cycle. Basically, a good combo point dump that won't kill your DP stack.
Note: Please correct my math if I've miscalculated something.
Considering the fact that with the best gear obtainable rogues would be looking at 2.1k+ ap unbuffed, add mangle, it's quite clear that unless there are any other changes rupture will still be the "butter" finisher for rogues.
I can see Mutilate specs using it though. 45-50%+ crit rate is quite obtainable (Scroll, Food, Elixir, Feral, GoA Twisting)+ You wouldn't have problems with slack energy/cp's.
I also wonder how 2 piece T5 would affect the damage. Too bad I sharded mine. =/
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
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So it's probable this post is a bit noobish to make here, but I figured I'd get more constructive and informed responses here than I would on general.
I got my rogue to 70 a bit ago and then shelved it to gear my paladin instead. The rogue is in pretty horrendous gear, slowly improving (I still have a Painweaver Band, how I haven't replaced it yet is beyond me, I couldn't tell you why). He's currently mutilate specced with the SL dagger and the dagger from the SMV questline, but I would like to go combat swords before I jump into Kara.
The problem is that I can't seem to obtain swords that I'd actually want to hop into Kara with. Grinding out arena points for the s2 swords would take a bit longer than I'd like. There's the decent slow sword from regular Mech, but it has the typical horrendous drop rate for 5 man weapons. Should I suck it up and run Mech/BM until decent blue swords drop, or should I grind honor and pick up the S1 swords? Any other suggestions would be helpful as well.
Also, I'm currently running with the Helm of the Claw with a RED. Is it worth levelling Engineering for the deathblow goggles? Would I be replacing it any time soon?
Originally Posted by Bula
"They were bad, stop trying to figure out why bad players do bad things."
Season 1 weapons smoke anything you'll get in Kara, and you wouldn't be replacing them until you get to SSC or ZA.
Deathblow X11 Goggles are estimated to be on par with T5 gear. And again, they're better than anything you're going to get out of T4 content. Definitely skillup your Engineering and make them ASAP.
2) Given the difference between combat swords and combat maces (~1% DPS), would you say the difference is negligible, or significant? 10-13 DPS for someone doing 1000-1300 DPS doesn't seem like an awful lot to me in the grand scheme of things.
So it'd be a definite pickup of both S1 weapons then, or picking up the offhand and waiting for, say, a Spiteblade (if it really exists)?
Thanks for the quick response. I didn't really want to dump 30k honor and then regret the decision.
I don't want to sound TOO jaded, but this is usually where someone comes in and says "Go to the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread, download it, and love it." Gear comparison questions can be answered by the spreadsheet far better than any "best guess" we can provide.
My instinct says that the base DPS coupled with the good stats (hit rating mostly) on the S1 sword would beat Spiteblade, but that's only my instinct.
I don't want to sound TOO jaded, but this is usually where someone comes in and says "Go to the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread, download it, and love it." Gear comparison questions can be answered by the spreadsheet far better than any "best guess" we can provide.
My instinct says that the base DPS coupled with the good stats (hit rating mostly) on the S1 sword would beat Spiteblade, but that's only my instinct.
I just checked, you gain ~3 DPS by switching to s1 sword from Spiteblade.
"For example, once you reach or surpass the hit cap, you will never miss an attack against a raid boss unless you are under the effect of some debuff that reduces your hit chance"
If this is true could someone elaborate on why 2 hit capped rogues in SSC/TK would have a miss rate between 4.5-6.6%, would these be soley related to dodge and parried attacks?
"For example, once you reach or surpass the hit cap, you will never miss an attack against a raid boss unless you are under the effect of some debuff that reduces your hit chance"
If this is true could someone elaborate on why 2 hit capped rogues in SSC/TK would have a miss rate between 4.5-6.6%, would these be soley related to dodge and parried attacks?
For WWS, what you do is click on the skill, at the numbers along the row, not the name of the skill itself (i.e. melee), and that gives you a drop down giving you details on the breakdown of individual misses, dodges, and parries.
Hello all, I have been struggling lately on what rotation to use, according to the spreadsheet the suggest rotation would be 3s/5r, deciding to test that out, I went to the good old blasted lands and found myself a Servant of Allistarj to test the aforementioned rotation on. The outcomes left me puzzled, I have to admit I was sure to achieve some better results.
Recount tells me I averaged 953.6 dps on a lvl 55 mob, thus having the upperhand in terms of weapon skill vs monster defense skill. I was using IP MH and DP in OH, using the rotation (starting with SS activating SnD, getting to 3cp refreshing the SnD then all the way up to 5cp and rupture) I found myself unable to keep it for a long, there were times in which I was at 5 cp with my previous rupture still ticking and 9 seconds left, and times in which i had like 6 seconds left on SnD and only with 3 or 4 CPs. In order to keep the SnD always up and running I found myself relying a lot on combat potency procs (according to recount noone of my weapon swings missed) and ruthlessness ones. I had sporadically times in which with this rotation SnD was down, be them half second or 2-3 seconds long, before I had 3 cps in order to refresh it.
Now the question that comes to mind, If I cant' keep up that rotation against a lvl 55 monster thus getting the most out of talents like Combat Potency, I assume that against a lvl 73 raid boss the things can only get worst. Should I use a 3 or 4 cp rupture being the difference in ticks minimal, or the loss of the free finisher will make the situation even worst?.
I've been slowly reading this thread ever since DMM pointed it out to me. I'm up to page 53 and decided I really had to ask a question. How does a rogue that is doing 953 dps manage to test any rotation on a lvl 55 mob? Isn't the mob typically dead after a few hits? I'm not being facetious, this is for my own edification and I'm assuming others would like to know. I'm trying to maximize my own rotation. Knowing how to test strategies and techniques on lower level mobs would be a great boon to my learning curve. In case you feel the urge to answer this query with try the spreadsheet, I have and I don't quite trust it implicitly yet. It currently says 5s/5r, which I would buy. Except for the fact that it says when Curator finally drops my T4 gloves my new cycle should be 1s/5r. This is definitely something I would like to test out on my own rather then when I'm leading a raid somewhere.
I've learned a lot reading this thread. Some of them are relatively simple like if you're running with an enhancement shaman remember not to put poison on your MH. The spreadsheet has also been helpful. Wish I would have discovered it before purchasing [Brooch of Deftness], but glad I found it before vendoring my [Choker of Vile Intent]. My guild is only just starting to work through Karazhan and I'm severely threat capped. (My build is optimized more to aid in my own survival and get in a lot of vanishes/feints, run Heroic Instances and help out with the occasional arena match.) On those rare opportunities I get invited along to participate in a raid where the tank can generate a lot more threat then my guildies, I would like to at least offer up whatever dps my spec/gear/abilties can provide.
How does a rogue that is doing 953 dps manage to test any rotation on a lvl 55 mob?
There are mobs in Blasted Lands that can't die, unless you destroy a special stone they're bound to, which you can only do while having a certain quest. Not being able to destroy that stone makes it possible to fight them indefinitely.
There are mobs in Blasted Lands that can't die, unless you destroy a special stone they're bound to, which you can only do while having a certain quest. Not being able to destroy that stone makes it possible to fight them indefinitely.
There's also ogre spirits at the end of Dire Maul North. They don't die, they don't fight back, they don't face you either, so you can continuously hit their backside forever.
i know that it was a practice to use off-hand sword and main hand fist with both points in sword and fist spec. off-hand sword would proc main hand fist attack, but i thought they fixed this to only proc additional sword attacks? anyone confirm?
I'm not aware of any such fix ever having been made. If you can find a link to something that says otherwise, I for one would be interested to read it.
For the original poster, I'd just say I think Envenom is being changed not to consume DP charges in 2.4 (according to MMO Champion), so that section might need to be changed given that it will no longer be necessary to continually build up DP charges.
For the original poster, I'd just say I think Envenom is being changed not to consume DP charges in 2.4 (according to MMO Champion), so that section might need to be changed given that it will no longer be necessary to continually build up DP charges.
Right now it's just a rumored change. No PTR or official confirmation yet.
No, it's not confirmed yet, but the PTR is on the background downloader now i think.
If it does turn out to work this way however, the DPS gain would probably be fairly minor.
Before i write more, keep in mind this is scratchpad math and i don't play envenom myself, so likely to be very inaccurate. Please take it with a heavy grain of salt.
The bonus here, is that in theory he'd be able to put instant poison on his MH now, or leave it open for windfury, which will cause a decent increase in DPS. However, as he's using slow daggers, it's highly possible that with only the offhand enchanted with DP the stack of 5 might fall off fairly frequently. So in the end even with the changes you'd still be using dual DP or even wound poison.
How fast does a 41/20 rogue go from 0 to 5 stacks of DP with both weapons poisoned with DP ?
Pretty fast undoubtedly, but let's assume 4 seconds for now. Though it might be faster or slower in reality.
So, with an energy consumption / combo point generation of about 20/2 : 600 energy per minute.
With a rotation of 2s/4e means you'd be using 25,60,60,35 per cycle (talents not included in this calculation) and thus be using about 3.3 cycles per minute.
DP while active is about 90 DPS
When not active, 0 DPS.
With 2.4 it'd be at a constant 90 DPS once you get the stack to it's limit.
Instead of falling back to 1 or zero stacks 3 times per minute.
As median you'd be on ~50 poison DPS for 4 seconds per cycle. 4x3.3x40 = 533,32 damage lost each minute.
533,32 / 60 = ~9 DPS
I'm not so much worried about rupture -vs- envenom, it's been researched quite often.
But, if the 2.4 change is real and gives only ~9 DPS for envenom spec extra, it seems fairly minor to me.
Disclaimer : All math in this post was done quick and dirty for the sake of creating a rough estimate, and will likely differ from the actual values in game. If somebody has a bit more time, or mathematical knowledge to spend on calculating it please do so.
Personally i think mutilate or envenom should "refresh" all poisons currently active on the target in order for it to be worth it, much like the paladin's Crusader strike.
Edit: Forgot to include envenom energy use in the calculation... DPS gain turns out even lower this way.
Last edited by Zurgat : 02/08/08 at 6:41 AM.
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Using the AEP values listed in page 1, Nyn'Jah Tabi Boots ranks higher than Shadowmaster's Boots for a combat sword rogue...I thought Shadowmaster is supposed to be the best boots in the game?
uh no? Until the introduction of T6 content, Edgewalker Longboots were best in that slot... beating at least 2 (?) pairs of boots in t5 content.
The Rogue Gear Spreadsheet support this, as well as the values derived from it for Loot Rank -> clicky
02/07/08, 11:38 AM
Until the introduction of T6 content, Edgewalker Longboots were best in that slot... beating at least 2 (?) pairs of boots in t5 content.
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