You should consider speccing combat sword before complaining that 1s/5r doesnt work out for you or someone is out-damaging you in a PvE situation with your PvP spec. If the discribed problems pertain, the use of one of the spreadsheets will give you a deeper insight on what you could improve on, be it gems, enchants or simply using another cycle.
@koaschten
I apologize for the mis-understanding regarding to my previous post. I did state that I was specced "combat sword" 2 weeks ago and that now I am specced shadowstep due to the reason that I will be focusing in finishing up my arenas. I do understand how combat sword spec regarding to the procs on Ruthlessness and Combat Potency. Please simply ignore my "Current spec" and replace it with Combat sword spec as it was 2 weeks ago. I just don't want to confuse anyone, if they decide to click on my armory and find out I have a different spec than I have listed.
Yes, I did use Rogue's Gear Spreadsheet created by Aldriana and as well the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet.
The result was 730+ DPS with no raid buff. Raid buffed comes close to 1600+ DPS. I was also following the "optimal hit" that was stated using rogue's gear spreadsheet, also following the recommended gem listing that the spreadsheet recommend.
Stats info when I was specced combat sword:
AP: 1796
Hit: 233
Exp: 10
Agi: 401
Crit: 25%
---
Originally Posted by songster
You don't get CP procs if you aren't specced for CP! With a shadowstep spec (or even tri-spec Hemo), you should be using something between 3s/5r and 5s/5r. That's because the lack of Combat Potency means you don't have enough energy to sustain the tighter 1s/5r cycle. If you couldn't sustain 1s/5r even as combat swords, then something's wrong - most likely a lack of +hit meaning you don't hit with your OH enough to get the CP procs necessary to sustain the cycle.
Also, make doubly sure you're always attacking from behind. Attacking from the front means you get parried, which
(a) gets the tank killed
(b) lowers your DPS
(c) loses you a chunk of your CP procs, lowering DPS even more
@Songster
I have always been fighting behind the target, and understanding the effects of less parry, dodge, and more crit. I control my aggro fairly well with the use of threat meter, and feint. I have thought it could be the amount of feint, but it couldn't be possible to really affect my DPS that much over a 10 minutes fight when I use them for approx 5-6 times. I do use vanish to wipe my threat after a while, which I insantly reopens with garrote and continue with 1s 5r rotation as a "combat sword" rogue.
Thanks again for the fast response, really appreciate it.
It seems that you are a bit low in hit if you can't get enough energy back from CP.
Try regem for hit and hope for the WSC from VR.
Unless you have problems with Meta Gem activation restrictions go for max hit gems on the legs.
If you're inputting your gear and spec into the sheet, and you're following its recommendations, your problem is likely due to the encounter or the RNG game.
1. If you're doing encounters which require movement, you're frequently out of melee range and thus not getting CP procs, which ruins your cycle.
2. The cycle recommendation may be very tight for your specific gearset. It will average energy gains for you to determine your cycle, but if for whatever reason you are starved from CP procs for a bit, you won't be able to maintain a cycle.
To resolve these issues, you can expand to a slightly longer cycle that will drop SnD less in exchange for less rupture uptime, resuting in an increase to your DPS. Try a 2s/5r cycle for a bit and see how it feels.
The other thing you can do is if you find yourself at 4 CPs with a few seconds left on SnD and not enough energy to get that 5th CP, just do a 4 CP rupture so you can refresh SnD before it drops; that is more important.
I have a few problems with my dps and I hope this is the right place to get some suggestions.
I don't want to give my armory link but I ll try to summarize my unbuffed stats:
3/4 t6, 319 Hit, 30% crit, 1970 AP, no expertise from gear, no haste from gear.
Main Hand: S3 Sword, Off Hand: Warglaive
Trinkets: Bloodlust Brouch ( Oh yeah, DST did not drop for 6 months) &Ashtongue talisman of lethality
In melee group we have Enhancement Shaman, Blood Craze Warrior, Feral Druid and 2 Rogues.
Curse of Recklessness, Expose Weakness on Boss, I use major agility pot, 20 hit food, haste pots almost every cooldown, drums of battle etc.
According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.
Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)
This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.
The DPS listed by the spreadsheets is a theoretical average for a mythical fight where a Rogue can just stand in place behind a target and wail away. In practice, fights don't usually work that way. Any forced movement and you will not be matching the modeled numbers. Tidewalker, if you never get Graved, is the type of fight modeled by the spreadsheets.
So, generally speaking, it sounds like your DPS is consistent with the spreadsheets if you factor in lost DPS from having to move or checking up.
I have a few problems with my dps and I hope this is the right place to get some suggestions.
I don't want to give my armory link but I ll try to summarize my unbuffed stats:
3/4 t6, 319 Hit, 30% crit, 1970 AP, no expertise from gear, no haste from gear.
Main Hand: S3 Sword, Off Hand: Warglaive
Trinkets: Bloodlust Brouch ( Oh yeah, DST did not drop for 6 months) &Ashtongue talisman of lethality
In melee group we have Enhancement Shaman, Blood Craze Warrior, Feral Druid and 2 Rogues.
Curse of Recklessness, Expose Weakness on Boss, I use major agility pot, 20 hit food, haste pots almost every cooldown, drums of battle etc.
According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.
Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)
This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.
From a quick glance at your armory I can tell you that your gems are all wrong. replace the 5agi\5hit in your helm with a 10hit, replace the 5crit\7stam in your shoulders with 5agi\7stam, replace the 10ap\7stam in your chest with 5agi\7stam replace the other two with 10hit, put 10hit in your gloves, two 10hits in your belt, replace the 5crit\7stam in your boots with a 10hit. Basically, there is no reason to ever have 5crit\7stam gems in your gear. Obviously this is just scratching the surface but you may as well at least have your gear gemed right.
From a quick glance at your armory I can tell you that your gems are all wrong. replace the 5agi\5hit in your helm with a 10hit, replace the 5crit\7stam in your shoulders with 5agi\7stam, replace the 10ap\7stam in your chest with 5agi\7stam replace the other two with 10hit, put 10hit in your gloves, two 10hits in your belt, replace the 5crit\7stam in your boots with a 10hit. Basically, there is no reason to ever have 5crit\7stam gems in your gear. Obviously this is just scratching the surface but you may as well at least have your gear gemed right.
5agi/5hit vs 10hit is sort of a matter of personal preference; thus, while I agree that replacing 5crit/7sta with 5agi/7sta, the overall trend of socketing everything with 10 hit is not necessarily something you need to follow. In particular, I wouldn't waste my time with regemming Cursed Vision, Slayer's Gloves, or Slayer's Legs. Fundamentally, the only places where your socketing is notably questionable is the chest (which isn't best in slot even pre-2.4, so I wouldn't change it - I'd just make sure to gem Slayer's with a Shifting and 2 Glinting/Rigids when you get it), and shoulders/boots where you should indeed use shifting for the blue slots.
It also should be kept in mind that the grand total damage increase from making those gem changes will be less than 10 DPS. Probably more like 5. So I doubt I'd even bother regemming anything, as I suspect your guild - if it's anything like my guild - isn't too fond of the idea of burning epic gems for a 1 DPS increase each. It's more something to keep in mind going forward.
I know this post is devoted to PVE spec rogues, however I have built an alt Rogue which I am having a blast playing. I leveled up Blacksmithing and I have Dragonmaw and the BoneCracker. I was wondering if anyone new of a guide for building a mace spec'ed rogue. A good talent point layout. PVP combat combinations. Tricks and tactics.. Stuff like that. I wouldn't mind trying swords, but I have invested way to much time and money into Blacksmith for the damn mace. Is mace spec ideal for pvp? If I want to keep someone in stun lock should I focus on hit rating and crit? Any information regarding building a PVP rogue would be greatly appreacited.
Here is a link to my armory page, remember this is just an alt and for fun..
As I was reading I saw the gem socketing obviously was Hit rating first but then it went for Agility and there were no +20 or +16AP gems or +24ap to gloves... is there any spreadsheets about how much better agility is? and is that only because it scales with things like BoK and the like
On the talents page of the spreadsheet, there's a button to calculate your AEP. AEP is basically how much each stat is worth relative to 1 point of Agility.
And yes, you're on the right track with your thinking. Agility is just a better investment for your item budget as it adds to crit, AP, etc and scales with BoK.
I know this isn't probably the right place to ask but I don't know where else to get reliable information from. After two months of break I am thinking of raiding again and before I go back to Black Temple I would like to clarify something. I have been reading a lot of stuff about rogues vanishing out of Teron Gorefiend's shadow of death debuff while the spell is being casted. This apparently doesn't place the debuff on you or anyone else for one cycle. Is this true and if it is, is their any certain way to do it? I read this post where someone said if you vanish too early he places the debuff on someone else.
If anyone could provide any further information about this it will be appreciated.
Again not that it belongs here but...
This is a bad idea regardless of wether or not its true. Once a person gets thier mobs down they use thier ghost with the leftover time to go assist the next person. From the first ghost on it gets progressively easier.
If you break that chain you gain rdps on the boss but at the cost of additional chance on the mini-game of having a person fail utterly and wipe the raid due to constructs getting loose.
Aside: We use the cloak and neck for SR for teron, if you're trying to burn him down faster because people/tank are dropping due to oom healers id recommend adding SR before trying to vanish out of the debuff.
Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:
Just wondering if the 6,5% dodge- and parry-chance of a boss can be backed up by hard data. I tend to accept the value but the main belief seems to be 5,6% due to "+3 levels".
Seeing the huge ammount of "expertise" coming with Patch 2.4 and Sunwell items it's quite a difference if you need 102 or 83 expertise rating to reach the cap.
Just wondering if the 6,5% dodge- and parry-chance of a boss can be backed up by hard data. I tend to accept the value but the main belief seems to be 5,6% due to "+3 levels".
Seeing the huge ammount of "expertise" coming with Patch 2.4 and Sunwell items it's quite a difference if you need 102 or 83 expertise rating to reach the cap.
It's mostly based on WWS parses. From WWS, observed dodge rates for bosses are in the 6.3-6.6% range, with parry being approximately double that (12.6-13.2%). Take a look at parses from the tank's perspective, as that gives the most accurate figures. (Also, remember to add in any percentage reduction that the tank's expertise is taking off.)
It's empirical, and basically appears to be a good bit about the 5.6% figure you would expect.
It's empirical, and basically appears to be a good bit about the 5.6% figure you would expect.
Empirical data is great, but it needs to be backed up by theoretical formula that can give a reason for the data.
So far I couldn't find any formula that could explain the +0.9% dodge/parry per level properly.
According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.
Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)
This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.
Also, you have to look at the rest of your raid's overall dps. If your guild kills gorefiend in 4.5 minutes your personal dps will be lower than if your guild kills gorefiend in 3 minutes, for example. That is partly because of our Adrenaline Rush cooldown. The faster your kills the higher your DPS will be as a general matter until you reach the 5 minute mark and then it sort of resets itself. Missing DST is obviously huge and when you get your MH warglaive your DPS will skyrocket. The 4 piece bonus is nice as well. Sounds like you are doing most things properly. As your raid gears up, your DPS will go up. Also, I prefer a 4 or 5 snd 5 rupture rotation when I am using ashtongue. I think in one of these threads aldriana showed that this was preferable.
Empirical data is great, but it needs to be backed up by theoretical formula that can give a reason for the data.
So far I couldn't find any formula that could explain the +0.9% dodge/parry per level properly.
5% base + .5% chance per enemy level > player level seems to point at 6.5% being semi-accurate.
5% + .5(73-70) = 6.5%
Edit: Changed weaponskill to enemy level, as while enemy defense vs weaponskill is possible, it's abstractable by 'enemy level' and doesn't get into the wacky weaponskill debates. :P
Note that the .1 in Shaker's equation comes from the scaling of miss chance against higher-level mobs; while it's been well-established for *players* that the conversion is .04, it has been shown fairly conclusively that bosses have different scaling than players.
Now, the thing that's always bothered me about that particular formula is the fact that hit has the significant discontinuity when the defense difference surpasses 10, and as dodge does not it doesn't strike me as necessarily the case that the same scaling should apply. But as it has better agreement with observed data, it's the number we've been going with until someone finds a better one.
I also remember doing some testing vs. level 60 mobs and did not see any dodges or parries against them. Assuming 0.5% per level, that agrees with that number. Just like you get no dodges or parries vs 57 Servants.
The question is whether Parry is...
Level 70 10.0%
Level 71 11.0%
Level 72 12.0%
Level 73 13.0%
or whether it does something like hit did and is...
Level 70 5.0%
Level 71 5.5%
Level 72 6.0%
Level 73 13.0%
5) While we're on the topic of stat weightings: am I correct in assuming that you made these stat estimates with very few AP buffs? Since, for instance, with the default gear in the 0.9.3 Gear Sheet (which is mid-to-high end T6), I get very different stat weightings:
Which is really pretty different than what you have posted. I suspect the answer is one of buffs, but I don't think the default buffs in the Gear sheet are *that* unreasonable for T6 guild, so... if you're posting extremely low-buff numbers, it might be worth making note of that fact; and I for one would recommend posting higher-buff numbers, since, lets be honest, how many rogues raid without Blessing of Might and Battle Shout, even if they don't have much else?
I went back and evaluated a set of best-of-T6 gear using your spreadsheet, including a very standard assortment of buffs to be expected in a 25-man raid, except with BoK turned off (since I feel its effect is easy to multiply in afterwards, though I may be mistaken). The only difference between the set I evaluated in your sheet and the set I used on mine for the current version of the first post is that I included [Dragonspine Trophy] when using your sheet. Here are the resulting stat weights:
These agree more with my stat weights and less with yours, and I was very much at a loss as to how I obtained such different results until I realized that you used the default buffs. The default buffs in your sheet assume no Unleashed Rage. Unleashed Rage would increase the DPS contribution of Strength, Agility, and Attack Power by about 10% each, thereby decreasing the EP weights of the other stats. Your default buffs also assume Blessing of Kings, which would increase Strength and Agility by another 10% each. Here's what I got by checking the exact same gear and buff setup, except with UR turned off and BoK turned on:
This seems to agree slightly more with your values. Still, it's obvious that certain buffs make pretty big differences in the EP weights. Given that, what do readers feel is the best approach for this issue? Is it prudent to assume that a rogue in raids always or never gets an enhancement shaman? Prudent to assume that a rogue does or does not receive BoK? What other buffs are prudent to assume? Here's the set I used for the current version of the first post:
Power Word: Fortitude (2/2 talented)
Mark of the Wild (5/5 talented)
Battle Shout (5/5 talented, no [Solarian's Sapphire])
Blessing of Might (0/5 talented)
Unleashed Rage
Leader of the Pack
Hunter's Mark (5/5 talented)
Flask of Relentless Assault
Spicy Hot Talbuk
Strength of Earth Totem (2/2 talented)
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor
Faerie Fire
Mangle
Bloodlust (x1)
Windfury Totem (2/2 talented)
Blood Frenzy
It seems to me the right approach is to pick a sort of intermediate set of buffs and work from there. For instance, in my current guild, we always have 3 - and sometimes as many as 5 - paladins in all raids, so kings is 100%. But until about 2 months ago, we didn't have an enhancement shaman at all - hence no Unleashed Rage. But I'm sure there are other guilds that always raid with an enhancement shaman, but rarely get more than 2 pallies so no kings. So I think the only reasonable option is to try it with a couple different buff sets and then pick something sort of intermediate amongst the range of values. But really, this just reiterates how important it is to use a spreadsheet if you want accurate information.
-The spec choice ranking places Mace + Swords as -1.80% less overall damage than CSwords. I was wondering if it was common practice for anyone who chooses this spec to obtain Dragonstrike. I currently have the first phase of the weapon and was wondering if rogue players who've tried this weapon combo can actually say that the weapon's proc is so awesome for Combat Potency that it would seem to make the spec feel much better than -1.80% ? Sorry, I tried to put this question as well as I can.
-Upon acquisition of the Swiftsteel Bludgeon, is this weapon significantly better than the S2 OH slicer to merit a respec into full combat maces?
-The spec choice ranking places Mace + Swords as -1.80% less overall damage than CSwords. I was wondering if it was common practice for anyone who chooses this spec to obtain Dragonstrike. I currently have the first phase of the weapon and was wondering if rogue players who've tried this weapon combo can actually say that the weapon's proc is so awesome for Combat Potency that it would seem to make the spec feel much better than -1.80% ? Sorry, I tried to put this question as well as I can.
-Upon acquisition of the Swiftsteel Bludgeon, is this weapon significantly better than the S2 OH slicer to merit a respec into full combat maces?
These questions (plus many more) can be answered by downloading the latest rogue spreadsheet(s). See below:
this is the spec i was thinking about... i came here hoping to find some information on it but i guess it wasnt posted due to the lack of "11 assassination points of raiding" (which i adamantly loathe)in my opinion RS is overrated(a one in 5 chance for 25 energy) compared to ruthlessness( 60% chance to gain the equivilance of 35 40 45 or 60 energy based on your combo builder)
while i know im going to get flamed and this post is going to be disregaurded anyone willing to provide insight id be glad to listen (i have S1 MH fist and S2 OH fist as well as twin S1 daggers and S1 OH sword)
the reason behind this spec is because i was thinking the hemo buff would help our melee heavy kara group (downed up to curator on a good night but shade and illhoof are whipping us) because we have 2 rogues 2 warriors (tank and fury) 3-4 druids (boomkin(optional), feral tank, 2 healers) lock priest and the occasional hunter when the druid isnt there.. i think the hemo would benifit the group more then constant SS spam
02/12/08, 10:04 AM
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