this is the spec i was thinking about... i came here hoping to find some information on it but i guess it wasnt posted due to the lack of "11 assassination points of raiding" (which i adamantly loathe)in my opinion RS is overrated(a one in 5 chance for 25 energy) compared to ruthlessness( 60% chance to gain the equivilance of 35 40 45 or 60 energy based on your combo builder)
while i know im going to get flamed and this post is going to be disregaurded anyone willing to provide insight id be glad to listen (i have S1 MH fist and S2 OH fist as well as twin S1 daggers and S1 OH sword)
the reason behind this spec is because i was thinking the hemo buff would help our melee heavy kara group (downed up to curator on a good night but shade and illhoof are whipping us) because we have 2 rogues 2 warriors (tank and fury) 3-4 druids (boomkin(optional), feral tank, 2 healers) lock priest and the occasional hunter when the druid isnt there.. i think the hemo would benifit the group more then constant SS spam
Relentless Strikes isn't a one in 5 chance - its a 1 in 5 chance PER combo point. On a 5-point finisher, its gaurenteed. A standard Combat swords build will generate roughly ~30-40% of its energy from Relentless Strikes (well, 30-40% of the non-tick based regen). Ruthlessness does NOT gain the equivalence of 35-60 energy (who the hell would use an untalented SS.. ever?). You gain a combo point. If you gained the energy, you would also be getting the dmg of the Hemo/SS/BS which is obviously not the case. Ruthlessness basically just allows for shorter cycles, resulting in higher finisher uptime.
Going Tri-Spec hemo isn't a bad idea for a Kara-progression guild. Generally you + a tank will eat up all the charges anyways, but having more melee just makes for an even lower chance of losing some of the debuff benefit. That said, using a more standard Tri-spec Hemo will net you a dps gain.
Well, for an assessment of how the spec performs, I'd plug it into one of the spreadsheets. I'd then plug in the cookiecutter 11/28/22 TSH build - or perhaps the 11/21/29 variant, as you're mixing weapons, and see how your DPS compares. I'd be willing to bet you'll find that one of the traditional TSH builds does more damage.
The problem with the spec the way you've entered it is that fundamentally you just don't have the points to take two weapon specializations in a tri-spec build. It's not that they aren't good talents - there's just other things that are better. And in particular: Relentless Strikes is better.
Now, I know you say you don't buy into the value of RS, and you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. You are, of course, wrong, but you're still entitled to it. Allow me to explain the error in your logic:
Relentless Strikes has a 20% chance per combo point of returning 25 energy. Thus, every combo point you generate effectively returns 5 energy. Thus, having Relentless Strikes is like lowering the cost of Hemo from 35 to 30. Not having it is totally equivalent to running combat swords without Imp Sinister Strike - you can do it, but I don't think anyone's going to reasonably argue that it's a good idea.
Ruthlessness, on the other hand, just adds combo points - not energy as you assert, combo points. The thing to remember is that SS, Hemo, and BS do more than give combo points - they do damage in their own right - a lot of damage. As I recall, something like 80% of the damage contribution of these moves is due to the direct damage they do, with the rest being damage gained from the combo point. Is gaining the combo point good? Sure. It lets you tighten up your cycle and get something of a damage increase. But the advantage from doing so is vastly dwarfed by the damage gained by having more energy to do more Sinister Strikes.
And, for that matter: Relentless Strikes adds more combo points anyway. If you are, say, running Hemo with a 5s5r cycle, you're regenerating 50 energy - 1.4 Hemos - every cycle from Relentless Strikes. 3/3 Ruthlessness only gives 1.2. So not only are you getting energy - and thus real damage - back, you're *also* generating more combo points.
Past that: the real comparison is not RS vs Ruthlessness, as you're never making that tradeoff. Lets, for instance, consider the energy regen from RS vs, say, Adrenaline Rush (which is in your build). AR gives 150 energy once every 5 minutes. In those 5 minutes, you regenerate 3000 energy the normal way, which is sufficient energy for 75 hemos and 15 5-point finishers. Thus RS, in this time, generates 375 energy - 2.5 times as much as AR. So if the choice is to trade off AR for RS - RS is unquestionably better.
Fundamentally: when people say 11 points assa is essential for any good build, they know what they're talking about. It really is that good.
So, that's the major problem with the build you outlined, and the reason why 11/28/22 and 11/21/29 are the accepted Hemo builds.
this is the spec i was thinking about... i came here hoping to find some information on it but i guess it wasnt posted due to the lack of "11 assassination points of raiding" (which i adamantly loathe)in my opinion RS is overrated(a one in 5 chance for 25 energy) compared to ruthlessness( 60% chance to gain the equivilance of 35 40 45 or 60 energy based on your combo builder)
while i know im going to get flamed and this post is going to be disregaurded anyone willing to provide insight id be glad to listen (i have S1 MH fist and S2 OH fist as well as twin S1 daggers and S1 OH sword)
the reason behind this spec is because i was thinking the hemo buff would help our melee heavy kara group (downed up to curator on a good night but shade and illhoof are whipping us) because we have 2 rogues 2 warriors (tank and fury) 3-4 druids (boomkin(optional), feral tank, 2 healers) lock priest and the occasional hunter when the druid isnt there.. i think the hemo would benifit the group more then constant SS spam
Your misconception about Ruthlessness is that it is rewarding you with energy in the same way that Relentless Strikes does. This couldn't be further from the truth. Rather, Ruthlessness allows you to spend more energy per time on finishers than on regular attacks. More finishers is a good thing, but it comes at the cost of SS/BS/Hemo usage per time.
However, with Relentless Strikes (which works very well in concert with Ruthlessness), you can use Slice and Dice and Ruptures with a proper cycle to spend nearly all of your energy per time on SS/BS/Hemo instead of finishers. This greatly increases your overall DPS (since you're getting the same finishers off and still spending more energy per time towards SS/BS/Hemo) while also lessening the negative portion of Ruthlessness' effect, improving that talent simultaneously.
thank you for the feedback and pointing out my blatant oversight on RS (srry for my nubness im too used to pvp where the combo points dont matter as much as bursting the enemy down as soon as humanly possible)
im personally tired of pvp welfare epics seeing that i own a few of them
i guess the reason behind me not using the 11 points is due to pvp (i was lolstep for leveling and pvp)
its not the normal spec but ive gotten #1 in the groups damage meter raid wide (we all keep personal meters for absolute calculation) since were in kara i figured the improved evis would help me out alot
i personally dislike cookiecutter builds which is why i make these weird specs
and into regaurds to the energy bit with ruthlessness- its just energy saved... i prolly should have worded it better
i personally dislike cookiecutter builds which is why i make these weird specs
Cookie cutter builds exist because they are the BEST. People figure out what is most effective, and that becomes the cookie cutter spec. If you're trying to test other variations to find a NEW cookie cutter build, fine. But just not using a cookie cutter build because you "personally dislike them" is like saying you don't like being the best you can be.
Vary from a cookie cutter build if and ONLY if you think it's an improvement in some way. If you have found some hidden gem that we haven't, we'd love to hear it. And if it's better than what we already have, we'll gladly switch to the new build. Which makes it a cookie cutter build. See the issue with your thinking?
It's different, I won't match 11/28/22, 11/27/23 or 11/21/29, but it's not horribly far behind. But don't underestimate Weapon Expertise, on a per-point basis, WE is better than Sword Spec, and definitely better then Fist Spec. So if you really want both into your fist+sword hemo tri-spec, I'd put only 3 points into each and 2 into WE. (or 5 into sword spec and 1 into fists, but that would be sidetracking the build even further, even if it improves DPS.)
Anyway, I don't want to get into a fight over viability again, so let's keep it at this: if you're happy with it, and your guild is okay with it, then go and enjoy. It's not perfect, that's why there are such things as cookie cutter builds, but it's not horrible either.
5. Gear Selection - Please consider this section of dubious merit until this disclaimer is removed.
In this section, rather than listing comparisons between every piece of gear a rogue could conceivably obtain, I will describe a general-purpose system for comparing pieces of gear against one another. To compare two pieces, you can give each stat a "weight" proportional to its DPS contribution relative to other stats. Let's call this weight Equivalence Points (EP). We'll define 1 AP = 1 EP; that is, 1 attack power is worth exactly 1 Equivalence Point. Now we can use a spreadsheet to determine how much DPS a single point of any stat provides relative to a single point of attack power, and convert those directly into EP values.
To utilize the EP weights, simply take a piece of gear and multiply each stat bonus on that piece by the EP weight for that stat. In case of gem sockets, figure out how you would gem the piece in actual use (instructions for gemming are given in the following section), and multiply the stats provided by each gem by their respective EP weights. Any stat provided that does not have direct DPS value (e.g. stamina, dodge rating, resilience) can be valued at 0 EP. Examples of using the EP weights are provided below.
Tier 4: the following is a table of EP values for sword (16/41+4), dagger (15/41/5), Hemo+sword (11/28/22), and Hemo+Deadliness (11/21/29) builds, assuming a projected tier 4 level of gear and buffs (10-man raid).
Can you explain why the hit rating has a different value for each build? Or agility?
Actually, that is poorly phrased...I know why the values are different, but I would like to know why the values are what they are.
Same section...
On stat weight scaling: each stat's EP value will tend to scale with your gear, talents, and raid buffs. Sinister Calling will increase the EP value of agility by about 15%, while Blessing of Kings will increase the EP values of agility and strength by 10%. Deadliness will increase the DPS contribution of strength, agility, and attack power, which will have the effect of reducing the EP values of any other stats. On-hit procs such as Windfury, Mongoose, Combat Potency, and [Dragonspine Trophy] will all increase the values of hit and expertise ratings, while [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] and Mace Specialization will both increase the value of crit rating. All of the EP weights given above are examples based on a theoretical raid composition and gear/talent setup; for the most exact valuation of stats, you should always consult a spreadsheet.
Some builds don't have Combat Potency, or Sword Specialization, and some builds receive a higher proportion of their damage contribution from special attacks, in which case hit rating loses some of its value.
Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?
I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.
I've never modelled it - so YMMV - but here's my reasoning.
If the tank has enough initial threat - I'll run in and wail away with SS.
If I think aggro will be a bit sketch that a sinister strike crit, then sword spec proc crit might make the boss "angry" with me, then I'll use stealth and garotte them.
In nearly all circumstances - running in and hitting the boss will provide much more DPS than using Garotte.
So - better is a bit subjective - but for me better is "not dead".
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?
I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.
Garrote and Sinister strike are going to be fairly close in Damage per Energy, but how many white hits do you miss while you stealth in? Sinister strike + 2 white hits is going to put you ahead over a garrote
I stealth in and garrotte as a way to force myself to stay out until the tank has threat.
If the extra 1-3000 damage is going to really make a difference to you at the end though, running in and mashing sinister strike will give more damage, as the posters above have noted.
Just as an aside some bosses are pickpocketable so opening from stealth may get you some minor goodies and cash. I've actually gotten a couple of green gems. No big, but still fun.
I also use it as a way to let the tank get threat. I've been known to be a little over eager at times.
Is there an 'optimal' set of professions a rogue should take? I've been reading around and I haven't found any real information regarding what's considered the best professions for personal/raid dps. As for myself, I'm my guilds token TSH rogue, and I currently have Enchanting and Herbalism. Enchanting for the ring enchants and Herbalism for cash. I'm seriously thinking of dropping Herbalism since daily quests net so much cash I don't really need a gathering profession unless I'm using what I gather as mats for a crafting profession. I know most just choose a crafting profession for gear they want (Leatherworking, Blacksmithing for the maces, etc), but it seems like a sink to me because in most if not all cases, crafted items are replaceable with drops or other gear sources. Am I wrong in this?
I've considered Jewelcrafting for the BoP gems, and I'm willing to eat that cost for dps (I did it for enchanting). There's also a passive benefit by taking Jewelcrafting and Enchanting, as you can DIY your own gear instead of paying mats for it. Would Leatherworking for drums be better? The spreadsheets tell me I can gain like ~2+ dps per gem, and ~10+ with Drums of Battle, but am I missing something? Should I wait for Inscription?
Seems like a note on optimal professions would be a handy thing to put on the first page.
Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.
Is there an 'optimal' set of professions a rogue should take? I've been reading around and I haven't found any real information regarding what's considered the best professions for personal/raid dps. As for myself, I'm my guilds token TSH rogue, and I currently have Enchanting and Herbalism. Enchanting for the ring enchants and Herbalism for cash. I'm seriously thinking of dropping Herbalism since daily quests net so much cash I don't really need a gathering profession unless I'm using what I gather as mats for a crafting profession. I know most just choose a crafting profession for gear they want (Leatherworking, Blacksmithing for the maces, etc), but it seems like a sink to me because in most if not all cases, crafted items are replaceable with drops or other gear sources. Am I wrong in this?
I've considered Jewelcrafting for the BoP gems, and I'm willing to eat that cost for dps (I did it for enchanting). There's also a passive benefit by taking Jewelcrafting and Enchanting, as you can DIY your own gear instead of paying mats for it. Would Leatherworking for drums be better? The spreadsheets tell me I can gain like ~2+ dps per gem, and ~10+ with Drums of Battle, but am I missing something? Should I wait for Inscription?
Seems like a note on optimal professions would be a handy thing to put on the first page.
Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.
It really depends on your level of progression. Leatherworking is going to be ideal for most rogues due to Drums, and the benefits your entire group gets from them. You can also get some nice pieces of gear like the Boots from SSC/TK, Shoulders from BT/Hyjal, that are very nice until you can get better, however Edgewalkers are better, and the shoulders off High Warlord are close and T6 is better. Armory isn't working so I am going by Wowjutsu, which says end of SSC/TK, but not in T6 yet. In T7 it looks like LW and JC'ing will be the best with a Best in Slot LW'ing Chest, and a Best in Slot JC'ing Neck, until then, LW'ing and whatever else will be pretty close.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
With the introduction of [Pattern: Carapace of Sun and Shadow] I would suggest Leatherworking, with the caveat that unless you're terribly unlucky on drops and flat out of badges, you'll likely never craft any BoP armor before that. With my gear, the Carapace is 26 AP over [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (the next-best-in-slot) and [Drums of Battle] weigh in at a strong 14 DPS plus group benefit.
With Nether Vortex being BoE and purchasable with Badges in 2.4, [Dragonstrike] would be within your grasp if you took up BS instead. However, indications are that Season 4 will be coming in the "relatively near" (several months) future, making S2 weapons available for honor and S3 for arena points with no rating requirement. LW would probably be the better long-term choice.
I was wondering if there was a version of the 'EP' charts for Mutilate-combat specs.
Sorry, but as the EP weights are based upon the theoretical DPS provided by each stat as calculated by our spreadsheet models of each spec, and considering that the best known Mutilate DPS model is not considered to be anywhere near as strong as those for other specs (read as: Seal Fate sucks and spreadsheet-makers hate it), I can't provide accurate EP values for a Mutilate build.
I would venture that Mutilate builds would experience increased benefits from agility and crit relative to combat builds, slightly reduced benefit from hit and haste, and similar benefit from expertise. I couldn't guess whether armor penetration would be more or less valuable.
But really, this just reiterates how important it is to use a spreadsheet if you want accurate information.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, but you and I both know that there will be a lot of people reading this thread who aren't likely to ever use the spreadsheet.
I think the best way to approach the EP weights is probably to balance an "ideal" raid setup with a "realistic" raid setup. By this I mean that a typical raid is most likely not going to provide the rogue with an enhancement shaman, a BM hunter with a wolf, a DPS warrior, and a feral druid all in the same group. However, enhance+warrior+feral+rogue+rogue is a realistic setup that a typical raid guild would want to shoot for anyway. Full armor debuffs are ideal (FF+Sunder+CoR) and are reasonable to use on pretty much any boss (doing Archimonde attempts with CoR taught me that). I think that two paladins is probably the best assumption to make as well. Basically I assume anything that's reasonable to expect in a raid guild, without assuming any of the "fancy" stuff that can be done to increase DPS (Expose Weakness and Blood Frenzy, drums, haste pots). So the list comes out like this:
Leader of the Pack
Mark of the Wild (5/5 Improved)
Faerie Fire
Mangle
Hunter's Mark (5/5 Improved)
Blessing of Might (0/5 Improved)
Power Word: Fortitude (2/2 Improved)
Bloodlust (x1)
Strength of Earth Totem (2/2 Improved)
Windfury Totem (2/2 Improved)
Unleashed Rage
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor
Battle Shout (5/5 Improved, no [Solarian's Sapphire])
Flak of Relentless Assault
Spicy Hot Talbuk
I'll redo the EP tables in the near future using this spread of buffs.
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed.
So it seems there are two completely different numbers people work with.
This will cause severe problems when theorycrafting or working on spreadsheets, so we need to prove one or the other number.
if u have a choice between Grace of air and Windfury what would be best for dps?
i know that WF is surperior to Instant poison but i wonder if the agi lose is out weighed by the gain of WF
On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with your shaman if you're unsure what will be dropped. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem might be preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom. For all builds, [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] are inferior unless the target is immune to poisons.
Relevant part bolded. I know it's a long post, but you'd think people who had questions would be particularly careful to double-check the sections dealing with their issue before posting.
I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.
I have some questions about the cycles used for finishers :
1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)
A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s
Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)
2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??
02/15/08, 6:36 PM
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