• Vulajin

What on earth are you talking about?

You are forgetting that after the Rupture, you have to again build up points to use your next Slice and Dice. Letting Slice and Dice drop would be violating one of the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. If you don't have T4 2pc, 2s/5r will allow Slice to fall off before you can refresh it. 3s/5r is doable and is used by quite a large number of rogues, but 4s/5r is more reliable if you are worried about Slice falling off in the absence of procs.

You are also forgetting that Combat Potency procs shorten the amount of time needed to generate the CP for your next finisher. On average, 1s/5r is the best usable cycle with T4 2pc, and 3s/5r or 4s/5r are best without it (until late T6, at which point you may choose to use 5s/5r).

 

hannigaholic

Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?

 

◊ Hanos

What? No, it isn't. It might be close, but it isn't better for a combat rogue in any know situation or combination of gear. Please do spread misinformation like this.

I am sure someone else will address this as well, but it comes down to the value of finishers, Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes. Doing a 5 point finisher means your finisher is free because you will always get 25 energy, and you have a 60% chance to get a combo point, this means you get in more Sinister Strikes, which is generally going to be more DPS. Also in your example what you have to factor in is what happens if one of your SS's is dodged, then you lose S&D uptime. A 4 point finisher still gives you an 80% chance to get 25 energy, so an average of 20 energy (15 for 3, 10 for 2, 5 for 1).

Letting S&D drop isn't a good option, and having planned downtime is even worse. You have to remember that Rupture is only a small % of your DPS, and the spreadsheets are designed to model the relative value of increased Rupture uptime versus additional Sinister Strikes etc.

Not really, because you forget to factor it 25 energy from Relentless Strikes, an 80% chance you will get atleast 1 additional Combo Point from Ruthlessness, and the fact that you will hit approximately 1 time per second with your off hand, so in 18 seconds you will regen 45-60 energy (on average) from Combat Potency. 1s/5r is only viable with Combat Specs for this reason.

PvP = The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things

 

◊ Hanos

The part about that statement being completely and utterly wrong. No spreadsheet or current modeling supports that, so I think we are at a bit of a loss regarding where you are coming from.

PvP = The Reason We Can't Have Nice Things

 

hannigaholic

According to the DPS Spreadsheet it is in fact better using my gear and a Combat Swords build

--edit--

In fact I've just downloaded the version using the full T6 gear and GoA/IP comes out on top for that also, so I'd appreciate it if you don't assume that I'm basing this on nothing, thank you very much.

That said, the Gear Spreadsheet puts WF totem at around 35dps* higher than the GoA/IP combo so it could just be a glitch in the DPS sheet.


*It's over 100dps higher if you leave both WF/Improved WF turned on, as it was when I downloaded the sheet, and change to Goa/Improved GoA

 

• Latito

You are looking at Unbuffed DPS. Unbuffed doesn't include WF (or GoA) into the calculations, considering you are not a Shaman. It does however include IP, since you give that to yourself.

This problem occurs at least once every couple pages.. someone thinks they made some grand discovery that somehow WF is inferior.. when really they just don't know how to read.

WF > GoA + IP.

 

hannigaholic

Frankly I don't appreciate being told I'm an idiot by people who are too lazy to go and look for themselves. The DPS sheet may well be wrong but buffed dps (unless 1700+dps is suddenly possible unbuffed and has jumped into the buffed dps box) is increased by dropping WF totem.

Go check for yourselves.

 

Ashran

A combat sword build (20/41) with 4 points spent in improved and / or vile poisons + considering improved grace air totem leads to this situation in the RogueDPS_2_4_0_3 spreadsheet. There are too many parameters (gear, buff, boss armor...) to give a number, but the increase for my personnal case is about 0.6% buffed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

- link to Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Left

Turn on one or the other, not both. (IE, use WF or Improved WF, but not both.) The sheet models them as two separate effects, so you are in effect double-dipping those abilities if you have them both turned on. This may help explain your oddball results...

 

Trazhenko

The DPS sheet does indeed say what he says it does, and as he mentioned later, the gear sheet disagrees.

For my gear/spec/typical buffs, changing WF to IP7 and turning on GoA(improved) nets me a whopping 0.29 DPS increase in the buffed DPS column (and +14.45 DPS if I change it to Flametongue, YAY).

However, using the same gear/buffs and making the same change of Wf(improved) -> IP7 and adding imp. GoA nets me a 47 DPS loss on the gear sheet.

I can't say who is wrong, but after raiding on a rogue for almost 3 years, I'm tempted to side with my experience, which says that WF is noticeably better than GoA + IP.

One thing I did notice, is that toggling WF on and off in the DPS sheet only changed the field "other DPS". I'd think that both "melee DPS" and "finisher DPS (i.e. SnD)" would go up when you add WF. Actually, if WF on the DPS sheet was increased by 35% (2pc T6 SnD), it would almost match the gear sheet. I wonder if that's the problem.

 

Left

Although, he's right... oddly enough, IP + GoA comes out as 0.19% ahead of WF in the current version of the DPS spreadsheet using default gear and buffs. Should be even higher for a Mutilate spec. Strange...

EDIT: I'm even showing this for my early T5 gear using the current version of the DPS sheet. Gear sheet has it sitting at ~30 DPS back. Something is funky with the DPS sheet here... either that or we need to re-evaluate all our assumptions.

 

• Aldriana

I spent a few minutes looking at this discrepancy, and there are two fundamental modeling differences between the two sheets. I believe the Gear sheet has the correct behavior (obviously), but perhaps it's worth doing some external testing to verify.

1) The Gear sheet assumes that WF attacks can proc stuff - Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, and the like. Since you are now getting 20% more MH attacks, the proc rate on these goes up and increases your damage slightly.

And, the larger effect:

2) The Gear sheet treats WF as a buff with a duration, and thus increases the AP of a suitable proportion of your other attacks to encompass this fact.

Now, I haven't actually tested either of these lately, so that might be worth doing; but my impression is that this is how it works. Regardless: between these the value of WF is increased by about 30 DPS in the Gear sheet relative to the DPS sheet, which is why one shows IP/GoA as comparable and one does not.

 

Fingerlickin

I am fairly new to playing a Rogue but I have a Druid and a Priest that I've had for years and I read these forums quite often. I'm working on an addon for my rogue to make life easier and I have a few questions for you guys. The addon is using the mob's estimated armor from the TargetArmor addon, the mob's debuffs from blizz's api, and the mob's health from the MobHealth addon to calculate Eviserate vs. Envenom damage and display which ability to use. I'm also trying to figure out how to get info from EnhTooltip to override that decision with Rupture if the mob is not immune.

My question is how much armor does a mob need to have to make Envenom more effective than Eviserate? Also, does Envenom gain the full benifet of misery and storm strike?

 

saedo

In general, envenom is not used at all. Deadly Poison ticks will give more dps. Envenom is only really used as the last 1% move when deadly poison won't tick through. And on that matter, Evis is also generally not used. If the mob is bleedable, Rupture is used.

 

• Vulajin

My personal spreadsheet does account for 1), but does not account for 2), and still puts Windfury 33 DPS ahead of GoA+IP for my gear/buff setup (early T6+full raid buffs).

I like the DPS spreadsheet, but the idea of it suggesting that GoA is superior in any fashion to Windfury leaves me really scratching my head.

 

robfang

In 2_4_0_3 version of the dps spreadsheet (as well as in the older versions) GoA+Deadly Main hand+Instant Offhand is better than WF+Deadly Offhand for all gear levels if 3 or more points spent on either poison talents.

In T4-T5 gear, the discrepancy is around 1% of your total damage while in T6 gear, the discrepancy is negligible.

Edit: The above values are for Combat Swords build. You can expect any dagger build or shadowstep build (due to sinister calling) favor GoA more over WF.

Edit2: According to my calculations, with 2.6 speed MH, 1,5 speed offhand and with slice and dice up;

Untalented,
Main Hand deadly poison provides 59,6 dps
Offhand instant poison provides 22,6 dps

The values match quite well with the poison dps values of the spreadsheet.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the poison dps calculations of the last version of the spreadsheet. If we disregard the slight possibility of miscalculation of dps provided by WF or GoA, we can assume that GoA+Poison on both hands is better than WF+Deadly poison offhand. At least until you get a Warglaive in each hand.

 

Dontmindme

I took a quick look at the Windfury DPS sheet modeling...it's not so bad, but there are deficiencies.

1) It's modeled under the old assumption that no extra attacks will proc other extra attacks which has been proven false. So it's missing synergy with Sword Spec especially.

2) It uses 2 as a crit factor instead of the true buffed crit multiplier.

3) It fails to add other overall damage multipliers to the Windfury damage (like Murder).

4) It doesn't feed back into the proc mechanics (but then again, proc mechanics are just beginning to get converted from estimates, so not much of an issue yet).

Since each of these are underestimating the result, it's probably safe to assume for now that Windfury still edges out IP/GoA. We'll see by how much when it gets fixed and the rest of the accurate proc mechanics go into place.

 

Ylliak

Our typical melee group looks like this:

Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Warrior
Enhancement Shaman

In most situations there is aboslutely no point to discuss wheter WF is superior/inferior to IP+GoA, because if your Shaman is skilled he will rotate totems and provide both buffs.

And then - without question - WF is superior.

 

Ashere

Late reply, I know, but:
Even with a hemo build, it takes 17.5 seconds to build up 5 combopoints for a finisher. With a Ruthlessness Proc, this is only 14 seconds.
On avarage, a Combat build with Combat Potency will be slightly ahead of the hemo build at this. Especially at higher level hasted gear (proc per strike for the win there). So 20 seconds is really a worst worst case scenario. On avarage, a Combat build will be closer to requiring only about 16 seconds to build 5 combopoints, about 10 with a Ruthlessness proc and very good Combat Potency proccing. These are rough numbers, but you get the idea.
So yes, some people will gamble on getting their procs right. If they do get their procs, it's rewarding, if they don't the effect is marginal.

 

Discombobulator

Oh high HP trash with 5% or less HP Envenom is better than Evi but that about all the raid utility it has atm.

 

◊ Shaker

I guess nobody else has mentioned it, though it might be in the mut thread, but +15% chance to crit with mut, and elementals won't be defaulted immune to poisons (though ones immune to nature damage will be). Looks like they're trying to bring Mut back in line.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

• Aldriana

It helps, certainly, but I think Mutilate is still a bit behind even with the change. Bumping Mutilate from (say) 30% crit to 45% crit will up it's expected damage by about 10%; assuming Mutilate was, say, 40% of your damage before, this is then a 10% increase to 40% of your damage, or about a 4% increase to Mutilate DPS (plus whatever you get from the extra combo points, an effect I expect to be fairly small). Thus, for a 1500 DPS rogue, this change would add about 60 DPS to Mutilate, which is larger than the estimated gap between Combat Swords and Mutilate. Additionally, Mutilate still has heavier positional dependency which will limit it's DPS in some circumstances.

So, fundamentally speaking: it helps, to be sure. And it might even be close enough that we now need to devote some attention to modeling it. But I suspect on the whole it still runs behind Combat swords at equal itemization.

That said, itemization needn't be equal; for instance, if you lack Warglaives but can get a Crux of the Apocalypse and a Shiv of Exsanguination (or some such) one might fight that the damage rivals any combat swords setup you can get without Warglaives.

 

◊ Shaker

Yeah, I agree that it isn't quite up to Combat Swords, but I think at this point it's not nonsense for one of your rogues to talk about doing a dagger spec, if only to soak up the plentiful number of high end daggers. I mean, sure, Warglaives are better, but unless your guild is really lucky, you're going to be looking at what, 2 sets max?

We're a bit more casual, but for me, given that it distributes weapons a little more cleanly, and that one of my raiders just honestly likes the playstyle better, this last change was enough for me to green light him into giving it a try.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Bendelat

Wouldn't the combo points be a bit more than fairly small? In the mutilate thread there are comments saying that stacking agility and crit over hit once geared provides for much larger dps gains than expected by gut. Mutilate already has massive combo point generation. If relentless procs and a high crit rate you can end up doing mutilate, 4pt finisher, mutilate, 4pt finisher, repeat, for as long as you keep critting.

That keeps up Find Weakness's buff, and provides significant energy generation. That seems to be fairly large and it should scale. Am I missing something?

 

Dorvan

Well, you're not going to be able to maintain a pure 1 Mut/1 finisher rotation (assuming a 4+ CP finisher rotation, I suppose going pure 1 Mut/1 finish regardless of CPs might be worth looking at come to think of it)...with 30% crit pre-Mut talent you'll have about a 70% chance to generate 3 CPs with each mutilate. Combined with a 60% proc chance on Ruthlessness and you're looking at being able to do 1 Mut/1 finisher about 40% of the time (perhaps as high as 50% with 4-piece T4). Still, that's a a nice bump over the 30% chance you've got without the talent.