Elitist Jerks Roguecraft 101

01/11/08, 4:19 PM   #901
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa

Mal'Ganis
That's an extraordinarily long post you've made to prove that you're an idiot. Your entire math about "only 41 out of 100 swings can crit" is flawed, as you are neglecting the fact that in your own combat table, 1% of all swings will crit whether you have 41% chance to land an attack or 42% chance to land an attack. Adding 1% crit increases the damage of 1% of your attacks by 100%, meaning that no matter how much hit you have, you're adding 100 damage over the course of those 100 swings on average.

The spreadsheets given are not sources for my information, but rather they are referenced in my post and are useful additional tools for rogues to use. This entire forum is my source. I'd recommend you spend a great deal of extra time browsing it before you consider posting again.

 Originally Posted by leebis Vulajin...you seem like a nice guy...sort of
Don't fool yourself.

Last edited by Vulajin : 01/11/08 at 4:26 PM.

01/11/08, 4:20 PM   #902
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson

Night Elf Rogue

Doomhammer
Incorrect. You're right that not all swings can hit; what you're missing is that white attacks work on a one-roll system, not a two roll system. That is, the game doesn't check to see if an attack hits, and then compute whether those 75% of attacks that hit are crits or not; it makes a single roll that is used to check for hits, crits, misses, dodges, parries, glancing... the works. What does this mean? It means that gaining 1% crit means an extra 1% of your total attacks - all 100 of them - will crit. Hence, 1% crit causes 1% of your attacks to do double damage instead of regular damage, while hit causes 1% of your attacks to do regular damage instead of no damage. Hence, neglecting RED for a moment, 1% Crit and 1% Hit have *exactly* the same effect on your white damage.

However, both crit and hit also have additional effects; crit increase your yellow damage, while white does not; but hit generates extra procs (Poisons, WF, Combat Potency, Mongoose, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.) while crit does not. Hence, the true value of crit and hit must these more complex interactions into effect; to do so, we usually use spreadsheets, as doing the napkinmath starts to become unmanagably complex.

 So, we've established that adding hit gives you more expected crit damage over time. So, the value of +1% to crit is determined by how much +hit% you already have! Vulajin...you seem like a nice guy...sort of...but we've concluded now that the static, unchanging values you've given in the "gear selection" section of your original, thread-starting, supposedly definitive post are utterly worthless.
As noted, we haven't, in fact, established that, but you are to some extent correct that the static values in the initial post aren't universally correct; the value of stats *does* depend on the value of other stats, even if it's not for the reason you cite. Which is why, just 2 paragraphs above the table, he specifies the gear and buff level that he used to derive this table. It is not exact for all rogues; however, a little experimentation indicates that it's a reasonable approximation for a wide range of rogues. For instance, my gear level is significantly above that which is used in the table, so my weightings are a bit different; I have 2.27 EAP per Agi instead of 2.21, 2.53 EAP per hit instead of 2.31, .32 EAP per Armor Pen instead of .29, and so on. So if I were to use Vulajin's numbers, I'd get a slightly different answer; on the other hand, those numbers are still within 10%, so a lot of the time I'd get an answer that was close to right anyway.

Fundamentally: it's true that those numbers are not precise for all players. However, they're a reasonably ballpark value for all but the best and worst geared rogues, and thus are a valuable ballpark figure for those people who want to whip out a quick answer. And for those that want a more detailed analysis, Vulajin has provided helpful links to the spreadsheets from which they can get them.

 So at some inflection point, for most rogues, they should stop adding hit and start adding crit and attack power only. I'm not sure what that inflection point is for me, but we can be damn sure it only arrives after one accumulates A LOT of hit. Tons. The real pros at Nihilum (that guild whose members are consistently and oh-so-arrogantly derided on these forums) say 290 hit rating or more....sounds plausible.
As has been discussed repeatedly in these forums: playing 60 hours a week when new content comes out does not make you fundamentally more knowledgeable about how to play the class. Hence, while I give all the respect in the world to Nihilum for it's progression, I don't consider them a credible source for theorycrafting based purely on that fact - and given that these forums focus on theorycraft, we neglect their assertions with good reason when they're wrong.

Fundamentally, the notion of getting 1 stat up to a given level before starting to stack another is flawed. Lets say you were at 290 hit, and had the choice of adding 1 hit or 1000 AP. Which is better? Well, obviously the AP. What if you had the choice of adding 50 hit or 1 AP. Which is better? Obviously the hit. My point is that at all levels of gear selection, the absolute value of your current stats is not what you should be basing gear selection on. Instead, one always should look at what you're giving up and what you're getting in exchange. Every time I here someone say "I know item X is better, but I'm going to use item Y because I need the hit" I cringe. If item X is better, it's better, and you should use it! It may be the case that because of your current stats you have low hit... but if you get more damage from continuing to stack AP and crit, then that's what you should do. Hit, Crit, AP - these are all just numbers. What you really want to optomize is DPS; hence, regardless of whether you have 30 hit or 300 hit, you should be selecting the gear that gives the largest possible DPS contribution, regardless of which stats it's coming from.

 Conclusion: Your static stat value analysis is no better than shadowpanther's. It seems like you've forgotten about, or worse, never learned at all, the basics of the attack table. Static values for any stat, for any class, are worthless, so please consider revising that section of your post.
You're right, it is no better than Shadowpanther. That's because Shadowpanther uses the same values that Vulajin has posted. And while these static values are not correct for all rogues, that doesn't make them worthless; they're still a useful tool for making rough approximations of gear quality. For items of comparable quality you may need a more detailed analysis than it can provide - which is why we have spreadsheets. But if any rogue, at any gear level compares the T4 helm to the T5 helm to the T6 helm with those numbers, they're going to get the right answer. So from that perspective, they're not useless.

I do admit, however, that it might be worth slipping in an extra sentence or two to clarify that these are estimates, and that more exact values can be found from the spreadsheet.

Regarding the attack table jibe: unless you have discovered something that has eluded the combined efforts of these forums over the past 2+ years (and if you have, please let us know), it is, in fact, you who are unclear on the nature of the attack table; Vulajin is stating the best known results on these topics.

1) We're not Wikipedia
2) The point of this page is to use as a reference. If there were good sources for all this information, this post wouldn't be necessary. So it's an aggregration of wisdom that is sprinkled across hundreds of posts, not all of which are still easily accessible; hence citation, even if it were desirable, is not always possible.
3) He has references at the bottom that describes where he got this information anyway.

 Spreadsheets are not a source. Sorry. One of the spreadsheets you cite as a source recommended that I drop my hit from 313 to 240, which had disasterous consquences for my dps (not to mention my gold). Those who read those spreadsheets and allow themselves to be influenced by them do so at thier own peril.
The spreadsheets, if used correctly, represent the best, most accurate summary of theorycraft that this community has been able to put together. If you don't like them, that's fine; however, I fail to see how you can disdain both spreadsheets and static stat weightings in the same post, given that spreadsheets are how you get dynamic stat weightings.

Regardless: if you don't like the spreadsheets for whatever reason, what source would you recommend using instead? They're the best, most accurate, most detailed source of calculations for Rogue DPS that I'm aware of. If you have a better source, by all means, please let us know.

 3. I think I speak for many people when I say, what is ~80 (your meta-gem value)? It makes no sense to me, and because it's a static value, it's worthless, not to mention meaningless.
It's an approximation, drawn from the spreadsheets and other calculations. Yes, it's an estimate, and, as a static value it's not 100% accurate. However, it's a reasonably estimate for people seeking a rough value for it's quality.

Long story short: you have some disagreements with Vulajin's points, which is fine. You are, of course, welcome to express any opinion you so desire. Unfortunately, what you're saying is incorrect - or at least, in direct violation of some well-established results - so unless you have evidence indicating that you are correct and the rest of us our wrong, I would appreciate it if you would not state your falsehoods as fact. Thanks.

 01/11/08, 4:45 PM #903 Left Don Flamenco     Palladium Draenei Paladin   Darkspear Leebis, did you read much of the rest of the thread? I think you think you understand the attack table's implications, but you really don't... especially since there are about a million factors going in to a DPS increase other than just hit vs. crit. Even assuming the simplist case, Vulajin is right in stating that +1% hit and +1% crit do the same thing for white damage. Using your numbers (which I don't even think are correct for glancings anymore)... 34% miss/dodge 25% glancing (0.65 multiplier) 0% crit (2.00 multiplier) 41% hit (1.00 multiplier) Over 100 hits you do ((25*0.65) + (0*2.00) + (41*1.00))*WeaponDmg = 57.25*WeaponDmg in damage Adding 1% hit, you do ((25*0.65) + (0*2.00) + (42*1.00))*WeaponDmg = 58.25*WeaponDmg Adding 1% crit, you do ((25*0.65) + (1*2.00) + (40*1.00))*WeaponDmg = 58.25*WeaponDmg IE, exactly the same increase. Also, percent increase in your DPS is actually more than 1% in both cases: (58.25 - 57.25)/57.25 = 0.0175 = 1.75% increase in white damage EDIT: Although, he makes a good point in saying that an illustration of the hit table (or a link to one) might help new rogues understand what is actually going on when they attack a mob. It's just that his understanding of the attack table isn't correct.
01/11/08, 4:54 PM   #904
Shaker
AUGH CHAMPION TIME

Human Rogue

Elune
 Originally Posted by Aldriana ... 7 commandments of rogue DPS. In roughly descending order of importance: 1) Don't die. 2) Don't do anything that risks wiping the raid. 3) Maximize your time on target 4) Don't let your energy cap out. 5) Don't let SnD drop 6) Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5. 7) Use your cooldowns.
On a similar subject, however, I think this merits being put in the first post, as a "playstyle" guide isn't really included, and this is probably the best simplification that I've seen that accurately describes what you can best do to up your DPS as a rogue from a "while playing" perspective.

 01/12/08, 2:16 AM #906 leebis Glass Joe   Darkassassin Undead Rogue   Non-US/EU Server On spreadsheets Yes, spreadsheets are nice, and the people who put the hard work into them should be commended. However, people are fallible. I won't mention any names but someone who designed one of the spreadsheets recently admitted, alarmingly, that they had miscalculated the value of expertise in the spreadsheet (the very same sheet that Vulajin uses as his "reference").
01/12/08, 2:18 AM   #907
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson

Night Elf Rogue

Doomhammer
 Originally Posted by leebis Wow. Are you saying that crits cannot miss or be dodged? If crits cannot miss or be dodged, then you are correct. If crits CAN miss and be dodged, then I am right. I've always understood that crits can miss. In other words, you can miss AND crit at the same time. But you can't HIT and MISS at the same time. Look at my post again for details (I've tried my best to make it simple, though I fear I have been unable to explain myself in a way that is easy to understand).
Crits cannot dodge or miss. A single roll is used to determine both hits and crits. Hence, if it falls in the "this attack is a critical strike" range of that roll, it is not in the "this attack misses" or "this attack is dodged" range. We understand what you are trying to argue, and it was a commonly held theory for a time. But over a year and a half ago it was proven incorrect; as far as anyone has ever been able to tell, it works as Vulajin described.

Edit

Regarding your point re: spreadsheets. It's true, they can have mistakes. As you note, I recently found a bug in the value of expertise in mine. Are there other bugs in it? Probably. But at this point it has been around long enough and subject to review by enough different people that I feel reasonably confident that any remaining bugs are relatively minor. For instance, the Expertise bug? It was overestimating the value of Expertise by about 10%. In terms of practical difference - that is, determining the correct ordering of items - this makes precisely no difference whatsoever. There is no item in the game where the value of Expertise used by the 0.9.1 spreadsheet would given an incorrect value by more than 3 AP - which is under the claimed accuracy of the spreadsheet anyway. But using those estimates, you would still correctly conclude that the Vashj belt is the best belt in the game, Brooch of Deftness is utterly useless relative to Choker of Vile Intent, Shoulderpads of the Stranger are good for when you can get them, and so on.

My point? Yes, the spreadsheets can - and do - have mistakes in them. However, because they are also the most focused, compact, direct application of theorycrafting around, they're also the most used, meaning that they are likely to be more accurate than anything else. I am more confident that there are no major bugs in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet than I am any other piece of code, or estimate, or *anything* else in the game. To be frank: that's the main reason I made it available to people. I wrote it for my own use in the beginning, and the primary reason I cleaned it up and released it to these forums was so other people could look at it, try it, and find any mistakes I may have made. After 6 months of this, I am now reasonably confident that the majority of the mistakes are gone.

Compare this to pretty much any other calculation available for theorycrafting - say, an alternate source for stat comparisons. Well, it's either a) much less sophisticated, and thus less accurate for that reason, or b) comparably sophisticated, and thus just as likely to contain bugs. But if we then have to choose between that program, which is not in wide use, and one of the established spreadsheets, which *is* widely used, which is more likely to have had most of the bugs found and removed?

So, in the end, is the spreadsheet perfect? No. Does it have bugs? Definitely. Even if it didn't have bugs, would it be 100% accurate? Nope. However, even given these flaws, is it still the best source of numerical theorycrafting available? Yes. Flaws or no, it's the best tool we have. So disparage the numbers from it if you like, but, fundamentally, we don't have any better ones - so the numbers from the spreadsheets are the ones we use.

Last edited by Aldriana : 01/12/08 at 2:36 AM.

01/12/08, 2:41 AM   #908
Latito
Don Flamenco

Human Rogue

Lightbringer
 Originally Posted by leebis Are you saying that crits cannot miss or be dodged?
Yes.

 Originally Posted by leebis If crits cannot miss or be dodged, then you are correct.
Thankyou, we are right. (for auto attacks)

 Originally Posted by leebis If crits CAN miss and be dodged, then I am right.
They cannot, you are wrong. (for auto attacks)

 Originally Posted by leebis I've always understood that crits can miss. In other words, you can miss AND crit at the same time. But you can't HIT and MISS at the same time. Look at my post again for details (I've tried my best to make it simple, though I fear I have been unable to explain myself in a way that is easy to understand).
We understood you, but you were wrong. Do you understand that?

 Originally Posted by leebis Are we debating whether crits can miss? I hope not.
You are attempting to debate this.. and will lose. Simply go to any lvl 70 mob and beat away on him for 5+ minutes. You will note that:
miss = 25 - precision - hitRating/15.77
dodge = ~5
glance = 0 (equal lvl target)
crit = crit shown in character window
hit = whatever is left

Try it.. really. Maybe you'll shut up and stop posting information which goes completely 100% against 2 years worth of combat logs from thousands of players. If it happened to change in patch 2.3.2 and you discovered it - awesome, congrats. But I doubt it.

 Originally Posted by leebis Aldriana, sure, you're not Wikipedia. But EJ has a lot of respect in the wow community. People believe that you've really done your homework. So you've got to show that. Vulajin's post has the appearance of a definitive summary of the choices every rogue needs to make. And I think he needs more evidence. The fact that the evidence is scattered across these forums should make it very easy for him to link us to that evidence whenever he makes a debatable claim.
 Originally Posted by Aldriana 1) We're not Wikipedia 2) The point of this page is to use as a reference. If there were good sources for all this information, this post wouldn't be necessary. So it's an aggregration of wisdom that is sprinkled across hundreds of posts, not all of which are still easily accessible; hence citation, even if it were desirable, is not always possible. 3) He has references at the bottom that describes where he got this information anyway.

 Yes, spreadsheets are nice, and the people who put the hard work into them should be commended. However, people are fallible.
Do you have a better resource? ANYTHING done to attempt to model DPS will be done by people. By your statement, nothing would ever be worth using.

 Originally Posted by leebis (see Aldriana's thoughful response above for an example of a respectful rebuttal).
Not everyone has the patience to deal with people who THINK they know everything, yet are quite wrong and themselves have NO PROOF OF ANYTHING.

 Originally Posted by leebis I won't mention any names but someone who designed one of the spreadsheets recently admitted, alarmingly, that they had miscalculated the value of expertise in the spreadsheet (the very same sheet that Vulajin uses as his "reference").
Yes. He typed something wrong, found out within days, alerted people, and fixed it. I think they call that a "Development Cycle". Develop, QA, Bug Fix. Pretty standard stuff. If you dig around, you can find posts of people able to match the spreadsheets predicted DPS within 1-2% on fights like Teron and Morogrim. I'd say its pretty accurate.

Enough of this being polite stuff though.. you are WRONG. This thread is for a collective set of commonly agreed upon information which has been tested and proven to be correct to the best of our knowledge. You, with ZERO evidence, are attempting to state "I always thought it was like this though..". Well news flash, you thought wrong. If you have questions, I'm sure people would be happy to answer. If you want to blatantly state random crap as if it were fact, go to the official blizzard WoW forums. Hell, go look at page 1-2 of the Mutilate thread for an example of someone who posts false information, stated as fact.

This may be the Elitist Jerks forum, but attempting to act all elitist while being wrong just makes you look like an idiot. There are plenty of jerks around here who will point that out. And I for one applaud them.

 01/12/08, 11:42 AM #909 Devil Warrior Von Kaiser   Dev Worgen Death Knight   Llane A great example to show that crits can't miss is to go fight the Banshees in Hyjal, who toss on that lovely curse that decreases your hit chance by an exorbitant amount. You will notice that pretty much EVERY auto-attack hit that hits, will be a crit, and you will have barely any non-crit white hits, if any (depending on your crit rate).
01/12/08, 12:46 PM   #911
Balkoth
Piston Honda

Human Priest

Greymane
 Originally Posted by leebis You can call me an idiot if you like, but the real idiot is the Blizzard rep quoted above.
No, you're the idiot. Read exactly what he said. Crits are calculated over ALL attacks. That means the listed crit rate is your crit rate among ALL attacks. If you hit 80% of the time and have a 25% crit rate, that means you'll have 55 normal hits and 25 crits, NOT that you'll get 60 hits and 20 crits. You are reading what he said incorrectly and calling him an idiot.

The brightest light casts the darkest shadow.

 01/12/08, 2:30 PM #912 Dontmindme King Hippo   Dontmindme Dwarf Rogue   Icecrown Minor correction: I noticed the 2nd Shadowstep talent build example listed only uses 60 points. I'd assume the extra point is going into DW Spec... As an FYI, I'm using the list of example builds as the default saved talent options in the next version of the DPS spreadsheet. Thanks for the hard work compiling those.
 01/12/08, 3:46 PM #913 Spline Glass Joe   Spline Human Warlock   Frostmane Searched the thread, couldn't find any mention of this: Does Blade Twisting put the Daze debuff on boss mobs and other mobs that can't be slowed? I'm wondering if getting this talent for the purpose of boosting the tank's Heroic Strikes is worth the talent points. Hunters would be grateful, too.
01/12/08, 3:57 PM   #914
saedo
King Hippo

Night Elf Rogue

Gorgonnash
 Originally Posted by Spline Searched the thread, couldn't find any mention of this: Does Blade Twisting put the Daze debuff on boss mobs and other mobs that can't be slowed? I'm wondering if getting this talent for the purpose of boosting the tank's Heroic Strikes is worth the talent points. Hunters would be grateful, too.
If they're immune to daze, then they won't get the daze debuff.

01/12/08, 5:34 PM   #915
• Vulajin
Vula'jin the Void, blessed by the loa

Mal'Ganis
 Originally Posted by Dontmindme Minor correction: I noticed the 2nd Shadowstep talent build example listed only uses 60 points. I'd assume the extra point is going into DW Spec... As an FYI, I'm using the list of example builds as the default saved talent options in the next version of the DPS spreadsheet. Thanks for the hard work compiling those.
Correct. This, and several other recently suggested changes/corrections, will be addressed in the next revision of the post, which should be done within the week.

 Elitist Jerks Roguecraft 101

 Similar Threads Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post World of Roguecraft Episode 1 frmorrison Public Discussion 49 08/27/06 1:52 AM