Incorrect. You're right that not all swings can hit; what you're missing is that white attacks work on a one-roll system, not a two roll system. That is, the game doesn't check to see if an attack hits, and then compute whether those 75% of attacks that hit are crits or not; it makes a single roll that is used to check for hits, crits, misses, dodges, parries, glancing... the works. What does this mean? It means that gaining 1% crit means an extra 1% of your total attacks - all 100 of them - will crit. Hence, 1% crit causes 1% of your attacks to do double damage instead of regular damage, while hit causes 1% of your attacks to do regular damage instead of no damage. Hence, neglecting RED for a moment, 1% Crit and 1% Hit have *exactly* the same effect on your white damage.

However, both crit and hit also have additional effects; crit increase your yellow damage, while white does not; but hit generates extra procs (Poisons, WF, Combat Potency, Mongoose, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.) while crit does not. Hence, the true value of crit and hit must these more complex interactions into effect; to do so, we usually use spreadsheets, as doing the napkinmath starts to become unmanagably complex.

As noted, we haven't, in fact, established that, but you are to some extent correct that the static values in the initial post aren't universally correct; the value of stats *does* depend on the value of other stats, even if it's not for the reason you cite. Which is why, just 2 paragraphs above the table, he specifies the gear and buff level that he used to derive this table. It is not exact for all rogues; however, a little experimentation indicates that it's a reasonable approximation for a wide range of rogues. For instance, my gear level is significantly above that which is used in the table, so my weightings are a bit different; I have 2.27 EAP per Agi instead of 2.21, 2.53 EAP per hit instead of 2.31, .32 EAP per Armor Pen instead of .29, and so on. So if I were to use Vulajin's numbers, I'd get a slightly different answer; on the other hand, those numbers are still within 10%, so a lot of the time I'd get an answer that was close to right anyway.

Fundamentally: it's true that those numbers are not precise for all players. However, they're a reasonably ballpark value for all but the best and worst geared rogues, and thus are a valuable ballpark figure for those people who want to whip out a quick answer. And for those that want a more detailed analysis, Vulajin has provided helpful links to the spreadsheets from which they can get them.

As has been discussed repeatedly in these forums: playing 60 hours a week when new content comes out does not make you fundamentally more knowledgeable about how to play the class. Hence, while I give all the respect in the world to Nihilum for it's progression, I don't consider them a credible source for theorycrafting based purely on that fact - and given that these forums focus on theorycraft, we neglect their assertions with good reason when they're wrong.

Fundamentally, the notion of getting 1 stat up to a given level before starting to stack another is flawed. Lets say you were at 290 hit, and had the choice of adding 1 hit or 1000 AP. Which is better? Well, obviously the AP. What if you had the choice of adding 50 hit or 1 AP. Which is better? Obviously the hit. My point is that at all levels of gear selection, the absolute value of your current stats is not what you should be basing gear selection on. Instead, one always should look at what you're giving up and what you're getting in exchange. Every time I here someone say "I know item X is better, but I'm going to use item Y because I need the hit" I cringe. If item X is better, it's better, and you should use it! It may be the case that because of your current stats you have low hit... but if you get more damage from continuing to stack AP and crit, then that's what you should do. Hit, Crit, AP - these are all just numbers. What you really want to optomize is DPS; hence, regardless of whether you have 30 hit or 300 hit, you should be selecting the gear that gives the largest possible DPS contribution, regardless of which stats it's coming from.

You're right, it is no better than Shadowpanther. That's because Shadowpanther uses the same values that Vulajin has posted. And while these static values are not correct for all rogues, that doesn't make them worthless; they're still a useful tool for making rough approximations of gear quality. For items of comparable quality you may need a more detailed analysis than it can provide - which is why we have spreadsheets. But if any rogue, at any gear level compares the T4 helm to the T5 helm to the T6 helm with those numbers, they're going to get the right answer. So from that perspective, they're not useless.

I do admit, however, that it might be worth slipping in an extra sentence or two to clarify that these are estimates, and that more exact values can be found from the spreadsheet.

Regarding the attack table jibe: unless you have discovered something that has eluded the combined efforts of these forums over the past 2+ years (and if you have, please let us know), it is, in fact, you who are unclear on the nature of the attack table; Vulajin is stating the best known results on these topics.

1) We're not Wikipedia
2) The point of this page is to use as a reference. If there were good sources for all this information, this post wouldn't be necessary. So it's an aggregration of wisdom that is sprinkled across hundreds of posts, not all of which are still easily accessible; hence citation, even if it were desirable, is not always possible.
3) He has references at the bottom that describes where he got this information anyway.

The spreadsheets, if used correctly, represent the best, most accurate summary of theorycraft that this community has been able to put together. If you don't like them, that's fine; however, I fail to see how you can disdain both spreadsheets and static stat weightings in the same post, given that spreadsheets are how you get dynamic stat weightings.

Regardless: if you don't like the spreadsheets for whatever reason, what source would you recommend using instead? They're the best, most accurate, most detailed source of calculations for Rogue DPS that I'm aware of. If you have a better source, by all means, please let us know.

It's an approximation, drawn from the spreadsheets and other calculations. Yes, it's an estimate, and, as a static value it's not 100% accurate. However, it's a reasonably estimate for people seeking a rough value for it's quality.

Long story short: you have some disagreements with Vulajin's points, which is fine. You are, of course, welcome to express any opinion you so desire. Unfortunately, what you're saying is incorrect - or at least, in direct violation of some well-established results - so unless you have evidence indicating that you are correct and the rest of us our wrong, I would appreciate it if you would not state your falsehoods as fact. Thanks.

Yes, spreadsheets are nice, and the people who put the hard work into them should be commended. However, people are fallible. I won't mention any names but someone who designed one of the spreadsheets recently admitted, alarmingly, that they had miscalculated the value of expertise in the spreadsheet (the very same sheet that Vulajin uses as his "reference").

Copied from wowwiki.com:

In June of 2005, a Blizzard representative made the following statement:

"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."

Was the "crits can miss" myth born on this day?

Vulajin...my MATH wasn't flawed enough to produce a wrong theory. My assumption that "crits can miss" was flawed. What was also flawed was your ability to figure out exactly how had missed the mark. If crits can miss, then just about everything I said is true. But crits CAN'T miss (I always thought it was a nonsensical idea that one could miss a critical strike, but when I first started playing the game, that's what I read and so I believed it. I think the fact that people miss CB evis all the time added to the confusion.)

I'll say it again for the new players reading this thread and looking for the facts: A MISS AND CRIT CAN'T HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.

You can call me an idiot if you like, but the real idiot is the Blizzard rep quoted above.

I still contend that:
1) Vulajin needs more citations.
2) The Gear Selection section needs an overhaul.
3) An attack table with an explanation is needed (or a link to one).
4) Perhaps a "myths and realities" section would be a nice addition. There is A LOT of misinformation out there, things like "there's always a 1% chance to miss!", "mutilate is better", and my favorite, "crits can miss".

If they're immune to daze, then they won't get the daze debuff.