For fist/fist I used this spec, for fist/sword I used this one.
The DPS spreadsheet reported a 20 dps, or 1.4%, increase when using fist/fist. The rest of the gear was my own, top T4 gemmed/enchanted etc.
Disregarding for a second about the discrepency with the 5 points not in combat swords, realizing you can't entirely do that, out of the gate, is it better to purchase the Season 3 equivalent fists then attempt to acquire a main and off sword for combat swords? Also i haven't seen any charts yet comparing swords vs fists from the PTR but what is the overall assessment of the max DPS with these new items? And due to this does this combination of combat fists beat combat swords?
Also, someone commented on possible profession combinations, (i do not remember the page it was originally on), I personally am Max Engineer(390 gnome racial) and Max LW so when 2.4 comes out, I can make 3 pieces of gear
The thing is I miss sword spec akilzon but gain alot more stats (and dps on weapon). Talon has higher max dmg and slower speed for hemorrhage (vs the Vanir's Right fist).
Sorry for not having a working spreadsheet of my own :o
The thing is I miss sword spec akilzon but gain alot more stats (and dps on weapon). Talon has higher max dmg and slower speed for hemorrhage (vs the Vanir's Right fist).
Sorry for not having a working spreadsheet of my own :o
The reason Fist/sword spec is better is because extra attacks with offhand proc the mainhand
I strongly suspect that your dps would be higher with both fists. With a mainhand sword offhand fist, sword spec will proc infrequently, to the point of not being a worthwhile use of talent points. In addition, the damage range on the right fist vs. talon is quite close, 4 points lower isn't a big difference, and the weapon dps is 5 higher - that's like the difference between S2 and S3 weapons.
That said, I don't have time at the moment to plug it all in to the spreadsheet.
After playing around with the spreadsheet, I have tried to formulate a rule of thumb regarding the new fist weapons and a 19/41+1 talent build.
(settings: roguedps 2.4.0.3, my gear: ToA//merc offhand, 4x T5, standard (raid) buffs)
My question is if you got the same results (with other gear combinations) and can confirm them.
With single weapon specialization
The new fist set for badges of justice is an upgrade in terms of your personal dps, even the loss of sword specialization for fist specialization taken into account, if both the following conditions are true:
Conclusion: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] main hand fist combined with [Blade of Savagery] offhand sword and dual weapon specialization specced provides the highest DPS for a deep combat build without warglaives and sunwell plateau loot.
Last edited by schnaxine : 02/23/08 at 11:41 AM.
Reason: item tags added for improved readability
Conclusion: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] main hand fist combined with [Blade of Savagery] offhand sword and dual weapon specialization specced provides the highest DPS for a deep combat build without warglaives and sunwell plateau loot.
Quick question. When you ran the top and bottom cases (ToA + Savagery and Vengeful Slicer + Savagery) did you keep the dual-specialization talent spec? I ask because when using two swords in a mix/max situation you can stick those points from Fist Spec into poison talents in the Assassination tree, which will have a small but non-negligible impact on your dps.
When I ran similar calculations with the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, I found that Vanir's Right Fist + Blade of Savagery (dual weapon specs) was slightly higher than Blade of Infamy + Blade of Savagery (Single Spec) but slightly lower than Vengeful Slicer + Blade of Savagery (Also Single Spec).
Of course we're talking about < 10 dps differences so I think it really comes down to what is practical / available to you.
Ald assuming you have fixed the overvaluing of exec in the newest version of the gear spreadsheet. With full sunwell/dual glaives for 7685 AC on bosses.
Mongoose: 188.2
Exec: 187.108
Now if i lower the AC to 7600
Mongoose: 188.216
Exec: 188.414
From then on exec beats it all the way to 6200 ending at
Mongoose: 188.481
Exec: 212.801
With my current gear:
7685 AC
Mongoose: 179.277
Exec: 175.856
6200 AC
Mongoose: 180.511
Exec: 178.023
So is Sunwell gear the point of inflection between when exec will always outweigh mongoose? Until then mongoose is better?
Depends on exactly what buffs you run with, and to some extent what trinkets you have available to you. Also note that this answer is somewhat subject to what further loots become available in Sunwell.
Anyway, using the default buffs in the sheet and full Sunwell + Warglaives gear, I show Mongoose 9 DPS ahead on 7700 armor bosses (1986 to 1977) and 1 DPS ahead on 6200 armor bosses (2201 to 2200). Using the buffs my guild actually raids with, Mongoose wins by 6 on 7700 armor bosses (2294 to 2288) and 2 on low-armor bosses (2564 to 2562). So for me, at every conceivable level of itemization, Mongoose appears to be better.
This is not to say that there don't exist combinations of gear and buff that will make Executioner better for people; I'm sure such things exist, and I don't want to discourage people from checking for themselves - that's why we have spreadsheets, after all. But for me, at least, Executioner never catches up to Mongoose in terms of DPS given all known sunwell itemization... though the arrival of new trinkets could change the situation.
Now, it also might be noted that this is just a DPS computation. I know many of you disagree with me about this (which is fine), but the fact that Mongoose also gives some dodge should also be remembered. I know in theory we should never be taking hits and thus never need to dodge anything, but, lets face it, these things happen. And having an extra 6+% dodge 40% of the time strikes me as potentially useful in that respect. Is it worth trading a *lot* of DPS for? Certainly not. But personally, even if I wound up in a situation where Executioner was 2 additional DPS relative to Mongoose, I'd probably still use Mongoose, since a .1% reduction in DPS seems a reasonable trade for that amount of dodge.
My guild is just getting into ssc... I do a lot of heroics and run kara for badges. Looking at 2.4 i have decided it is best for me to go fists with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry. The best offhand sword i have atm is Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade, is it best in this situation to go fist/fist with both vanir's or fist/sword with vanir's mainhand and merciless offhand?
My guild is just getting into ssc... I do a lot of heroics and run kara for badges. Looking at 2.4 i have decided it is best for me to go fists with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry. The best offhand sword i have atm is Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade, is it best in this situation to go fist/fist with both vanir's or fist/sword with vanir's mainhand and merciless offhand?
I don't see what you hope to gain by refusing to read even a single page's worth of posts which happen to cover this exact same topic. I notice you edited your post to remove the line of "PS Please run this through your spreadsheet since I don't have one"
I think it would do you good to take plenty of time to read over the first post of this thread, at the bottom there are two links provided to the Rogue DPS and Gear spreadsheets. Take your time playing with these spreadsheets to learn what's the best upgrades for you and after that, try reading the last 3-4 pages of the thread so you won't look like a fool by repeating a question that has been addressed and discussed over the last 10-15 posts.
I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:
We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.
My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???
This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?
I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
A wws log might be helpful here. By a quick look at the armory, he/she seems to be using [Talon of Azshara] while you got season 1 mainhand. I'm not sure if that is enough to make that big difference though.
I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:
We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.
My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???
This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?
I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
I just looked at your specc too... is there any reason you skipped vitality? That extra agility is going to increase your AP and Crit % and I would think that would be more useful than the nerves or steel or even the imp poisons. It might just mean that the other rogue is getting more AP and more crits as a result. Just a guess though.
I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:
We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.
My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???
This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?
I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
The sheet models a static 10 min fight where you just get to stand still and whack away. There are no such fights in the game apart from maybe Morogrim depending on tombs. Hit rating is somewhat overrated in practise
A
Conclusion: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] main hand fist combined with [Blade of Savagery] offhand sword and dual weapon specialization specced provides the highest DPS for a deep combat build without warglaives and sunwell plateau loot.
Since you did not include the 4 points in vile poisons in that the resulting dps is a bit off.
If you were to spec swords+fists, you would lack those points, and in effect a good number in DPS from your offhand poison procs.
Could you test dual swords with 20/41 (4p vile poison) versus the talent build that you linked (with fist+sword offhand) ?
I feel this would give a more realistic view to compare the weapons with, as logically you wouldn't spec 5 points into fist spec if you aren't equipping those.
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Since you did not include the 4 points in vile poisons in that the resulting dps is a bit off.
If you were to spec swords+fists, you would lack those points, and in effect a good number in DPS from your offhand poison procs.
Could you test dual swords with 20/41 (4p vile poison) versus the talent build that you linked (with fist+sword offhand) ?
I feel this would give a more realistic view to compare the weapons with, as logically you wouldn't spec 5 points into fist spec if you aren't equipping those.
I came to the same conclusion; the new 2.4 fist weapon and fist+swordspec is little better on excel than Blade of Infamy+poisonspec (offhand is Blade of Savagery in both cases, and rest of the eq is T6-level). Dropping 4 points from vile poisons is -11dps, putting 5 to fistspec and wielding Vanir's Right Fist gives +15.5dps. So, if you are missing Blade of Infamy, the fist is a bit better, as is S3 MH sword with poisonspec. Numbers are with normal raidbuffs and war+shaman.
The result isn't surprising, as I've been dualspecced before (MH kael's mace/OH S2 sword) and the excel has always followed reality closely enough.
Hey there, can anyone please explain to me, how it comes that Combat Daggers start with only -0,5% compared to Swords in Tier 4 and in Tier 6 even come out after Combat Maces? Is this only due to the weapons available (assuming used spreadsheet to determine every builds dps), meaning the maces are simply better than the daggers?
I came to the same conclusion; the new 2.4 fist weapon and fist+swordspec is little better on excel than Blade of Infamy+poisonspec (offhand is Blade of Savagery in both cases, and rest of the eq is T6-level). Dropping 4 points from vile poisons is -11dps, putting 5 to fistspec and wielding Vanir's Right Fist gives +15.5dps. So, if you are missing Blade of Infamy, the fist is a bit better, as is S3 MH sword with poisonspec. Numbers are with normal raidbuffs and war+shaman.
The result isn't surprising, as I've been dualspecced before (MH kael's mace/OH S2 sword) and the excel has always followed reality closely enough.
Since you did not include the 4 points in vile poisons in that the resulting dps is a bit off.
If you were to spec swords+fists, you would lack those points, and in effect a good number in DPS from your offhand poison procs.
I've used 0/5 vile poisons, 0/2 nerves of steel for fist/sword dual weapon spec and 3/5 vile, 2/2 nerves of steel for combat swords. Sorry, should have added exact talent builds in my previous post, my bad.
I've used 0/5 vile poisons, 0/2 nerves of steel for fist/sword dual weapon spec and 3/5 vile, 2/2 nerves of steel for combat swords. Sorry, should have added exact talent builds in my previous post, my bad.
4/5 Vile would be a better comparison since you are picking up DPS talents by going Fist Spec, so you should compare it to a build where you put those 5 points in the highest possible DPS talents remaining when going Sword Spec. The normal build in my experience is 4/5 Vile and 1/2 Nerves of Steel.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Do we need to start a "Help Me Please?" thread for rogues? The past few pages of this have been riddled with people asking questions that could have been answered in 5 minutes of research. Repeatedly answering these kinds of questions isn't helping someone who actually IS putting in the effort to find information they need.
Do we need to start a "Help Me Please?" thread for rogues? The past few pages of this have been riddled with people asking questions that could have been answered in 5 minutes of research. Repeatedly answering these kinds of questions isn't helping someone who actually IS putting in the effort to find information they need.
Do you need a hug?
I was just curious man relax. It wasn't listed nor does it have a prock or use so I was just looking for some imput.
No go drink a moutian dew, come back and bless me with your eternal rogue knowlege
I was just curious man relax. It wasn't listed nor does it have a prock or use so I was just looking for some imput.
No go drink a moutian dew, come back and bless me with your eternal rogue knowlege
This wasn't directed at you at all man; I don't think I'm the one that needs to relax. I will take a Mountain Dew though!
I was just pointing out that if someone wanted to rack up their first 10 posts by saying "Go download the spreadsheet and see for yourself" in this thread alone, it could probably be done in a day.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Roguecraft 101 could also be titled "Things every rogue should know", and any following posts should be suggestions for additions or debates about the information within. Frankly (and again, I'm not attacking you), posts asking for gear help are just cluttering the thread.
02/23/08, 5:26 AM
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