After scanning through things, here's the sort of statement that I think would be more accurate and put things to bed on the OP:
"With regards to hemo specs, at the T4 and T5 levels the hemo debuffs can make up for the loss of personal dps when dealing with a single target, provided there is sufficient melee in the raid to use the bebuffs. On a single target, the hemo debuff usage can be great enough that it beats a combat spec in overall raid dps contribution. However, in cases of split dps fights and trash pulls, debuff usage can drop and the overall value of the hemo bebuff will be reduced. As a result, hemo is a more "situational" spec - it works extremely well on a single target and may exceed combat in overall dps contribution in these cases, but combat specs are more consistent and reliable performers in all pulls.
Since the hemo debuff does not scale with gear at all, once you reach the upper T5 level (and most definitely at T6) hemo specs are not worth using. Likewise, there is little value to having more than one hemo spec rogue in the raid."
I would deem that to be somewhere between misleading and wrong, and generally agree with the OP and the fact that it is rightfully ranked as an inferior spec. The first post clearly states:
In a 25-man raid, the Hemo debuff may contribute a substantial chunk of raid DPS, such that one Hemo rogue in the raid may make up for his loss of personal DPS. However, by tier 6, even a single rogue providing the debuff may not be worth the loss of personal DPS, and certainly it will not be worth having any more than one Hemo rogue in a raid regardless.
Basically in a best case scenario you can pull even, however, if for example all the other melee die, you will be doing less raid DPS because your personal DPS is lower. At no point would I consider Hemo significantly higher to warrant on any level suggesting it is superior to combat, because you have to take into account the variable value of charges, wasted charges (they happen... aka you Hemo 2-3 times on the GCD, or you Hemo right before the boss dies etc.).
Basically the original post is right, your splitting hairs to try to validate work you did that had already been done, and feel like you contributed something, only your work was inaccurate and incomplete, just leave it alone.
As to why I hoped that thread had died, try reading the last 5-10 pages, and I think you will get a pretty good idea why it was locked and resulted in at least one person getting banned.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Well, my best guess for the Hemo debuff is around 120-140 DPS now.
You missed a number of things with your napkin math.
1) No misses has already been addressed. But even dodges only cost you 20% energy as 80% is returned with serves to divide and dodge rate by 5. So really, you are talking about a 0.8% miss/dodge rate for calculations (assuming 2 pts Weapon Expertise).
2) The Hemo damage bonus is also modified but damage multipliers and crits. This means such things as the backstab % bonus or Warrior Execute factor in. And as noted, is depreciated by armor reduction.
3) These are difficult to quantify but one could probably take a WWS or combat log parse. Take an average of all physical attacks and proportion them to Hemo use and get a decent estimate. Then apply raidwide global damage modifiers and such and get a better estimate. To my knowledge, no one has actually done that.
The DPS spreadsheet has an estimate for the debuff which is on by default for Hemo builds. It uses a wide variety of assumptions, should be in the ballpark but I'm certainly not going to say it hits the bullseye. Someday I might revisit it, but I'm currently focusing on things that can be more precisely determined. For now, it says "estimate" and that's what it is...
And one last thing, before you just add 120-140 DPS to your WWS parse you must realize that you are using some of your own charges. Probably better to call it 100-120 DPS if you are going to add it.
Edit: And as a final aside, I have no problem or issue with how this is presented on the front page. I consider the statements as doing perfect justice to the relevance of Hemo spec. Just clarifying the specifics a little more.
So for what it's worth, the time you really need to drop hemo in my opinion is when you set foot into Hyjal. And the reason is not because you start moving into Tier 6 gear slowly and inexorably. It's because you really start losing the benefit of your hemo charges. Too often there isn't enough physical dps on the mob and you are renewing hemo before the charges are used up. And for the first time in a long time, your performance on trash is going to matter.
Since you are also going to begin getting tier 6 gear in the coming weeks and your spec is going to begin to fall behind, you may as well go ahead and respec combat at that point.
Basically the original post is right, your splitting hairs to try to validate work you did that had already been done, and feel like you contributed something, only your work was inaccurate and incomplete, just leave it alone.
No, I am not attempting to validate my work. As a matter of fact, I went back to my original posts and DELETED the text due to bad assumptions. And I disagree with the OP and your "combat is inherantly always better" based on what was presented in the hemo thread between the flames, as well as statements like:
Originally Posted by Arindelest
The spreadsheets do a decent job of calculating it, and as far as general rules we already have one: Hemo is usually better at T4, roughly equivalent in T5, and flat-out worse in T6.
If Arindelest is correct (and the hemo thread and other comments here seem to suggest this), why isn't this on the OP to make the matter clear? I don't come here to "validate" my work - I'm as satisfied to see it ripped to shreds as I would have been if it had been accepted as reasonable. Why? I've learned one heck of a lot in a short time!!! I'm now seriously considering dumping hemo to go to combat maces until I can go swords.
As for your examples... if all the melee is down, your raid is in deep do-do to begin with. Having a slight dps advantage with a combat spec likely won't be enough to save the day. Similarly... wasted charges at the end of a boss fight? How many combat rogues have had unused combo points when a boss/mob dies? Or had a rupture still ticking? Overall, even a full stack of 10 wasted charges at the end of a boss fight... is 420 damage missed over the course of an entire boss fight. Not enough to say emphatically "combat rulez alwayz" as a combat rogue could sneeze while at the keyboard, miss timing on a SS, and see a 5cp rupture reduced to 4cp. Regarding wasted charges during a boss fight due to GCD spamming... that is an interesting issue. It would be one heck of a challenge to model - I may need to pull out a new napkin.
Dontmindme and Mideci - thank you very much for your responses. Having a number to play with will indeed clarify things for myself and others, and the comment on Hyjal... extremely useful. This is exactly what I was looking for, and will undoubtedly be useful to others.
What is it about the difference in spec/damage/speed/etc. between Combat Swords and Combat Fists that makes Fists have a lesser DPS rating?
I've been looking around at different item databases, the AH in-game, etc... and from what I can see, Fist weapons are either higher top end damage, or are slightly faster (sometimes the same speed) than swords. So where is does the downfall come into play?
Sword Spec is 5% chance of an extra attack, right?
Fist Spec is an additional 5% crit chance?
From what I can tell, my Sword Spec doesn't proc that extra attack very often at all. Like, never. (Well, obviously not never.)
So what am I missing here? Is it really just that chance of an extra attack that puts it over the top?
What is it about the difference in spec/damage/speed/etc. between Combat Swords and Combat Fists that makes Fists have a lesser DPS rating?
I've been looking around at different item databases, the AH in-game, etc... and from what I can see, Fist weapons are either higher top end damage, or are slightly faster (sometimes the same speed) than swords. So where is does the downfall come into play?
Top end is generally considered irrelevant, since it just means there is a lower bottom end, and the average will in fact average out over time.
Sword Spec is 5% chance of an extra attack, right?
Fist Spec is an additional 5% crit chance?
From what I can tell, my Sword Spec doesn't proc that extra attack very often at all. Like, never. (Well, obviously not never.)
So what am I missing here? Is it really just that chance of an extra attack that puts it over the top?
You aren't looking very hard. Look at any WWS Report and you can clearly see how often Sword Spec actually procs, it is in fact 5% of the time.
It isn't just the additional attack, it is the fact that a Sword Spec Proc from an OH Sword Hit results in a MH hit, which does significantly more damage (2.6 Speed vs 1.4 speed, aka 80%+ more damage), and it isn't modified by the OH Penalty, and those attacks can crit.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Just for clarification, can sword spec extra attacks proc Mongoose? DST? Windfury? I am aware they cannot proc extra extra attacks, but I don't recall seeing the other procs being discussed.
Assume you have a 2.6 speed MH and a 1.5 speed OH for swords. Over the course of 60 seconds, you will have about 23 MH sword attacks, and 40 OH attacks, or a total of 63 sword attacks. For the sake of napkin math, let's reduce that by 15% to 54 attacks due to hit rating, boss dodge, or whatever. With a 5% chance to proc, in 60 seconds it is reasonable to assume that you will have at least 2, and more likely 3 extra MH attacks (2.7 extra attacks on the MH is the "average" in this napkin math example). So... is 2.7 free MH attacks per minute better than 5% crit? Remember, each freebie MH can crit, and this is what makes the sword spec so nice.
In response to your other question... fists being slightly higher top end damage or faster. The slightly higher top end damage is nice, as it can make your hemo/SS hit harder and your crits a little bigger. But if it has a higher top end damage but the same dps/speed as the equivilent sword, it will also have a lower minimum damage, so the fist will hit softer at times than the sword would. In the end, if the speed/dps are the same, there shouldn't be much difference in straight damage between a fist and sword (before spec comes into play!). As for faster fists... regardless of spec, people have found that a slower MH weapon works better as your SS/hemo hits will be bigger and make up for the "machine gun effect" of a faster weapon. So... if it's a slower speed weap with a higher top end damage... it might be nice, but most likely not. If it's a faster weap... probably not.
Speaking of slower weapons... imagine what would happen to the dps rankings if Blizz tossed a 2.6spd dagger at rogues... Combat daggers might actually wtfpwn combat swords.
Speaking of slower weapons... imagine what would happen to the dps rankings if Blizz tossed a 2.6spd dagger at rogues... Combat daggers might actually wtfpwn combat swords.
Well, 1) We both know Blizzard will never do that and 2) normalization means that that might not change things as much as you'd think.
Regarding the earlier debate: What you're seeing here, more or less, is the exact reason why the wording is vague in the original post. It's because there isn't really a consensus on what the right answer is. You have several established members of the community who understand the intricacies of the matter coming up with different conclusions. To be sure, the answers are all fairly close - variations on a theme, if you will - but the exact nature of when it's more powerful and when it's not depends on who you ask; thus, about the most general thing you can say without people arguing it is more or less what's already said - "it's reasonably comparable, but by T6 it falls behind".
Just for clarification, can sword spec extra attacks proc Mongoose? DST? Windfury? I am aware they cannot proc extra extra attacks, but I don't recall seeing the other procs being discussed.
Prevailing theory seems to be that Sword Spec extra attacks can proc anything a normal attack can proc except another Sword Spec extra attack. I recall seeing a parse where there was a triple extra attack proc. I forget whether it was Sword Spec/WF/Sword Spec or WF/Sword Spec/WF. I appears the mechanic just prohibits the same extra attack from proccing twice in a row.
Yes, Sword Spec attacks can proc WF attacks, but not Sword Spec attacks. Similarily, WF attacks can proc Sword Spec attacks, but not another WF. WF / SS attacks can proc DST, Weapon enchants (Mongoose, Exec), etc. Basically, its another auto attack which cannot proc an extra attack of its own type.
You CAN however go from Auto -> WF -> SS -> WF etc. If you happen to be using a Blinkstrike for whatever reason, the burst potential grows even more.
I'll be honest, I don't raid often, but I love to run heroics. This brings me to my question: what is the rogue hit cap when dealing with mobs with a maximum level of 72? I imagine that there is some sliver of a percent of hit rating that just isn't needed when you downgrade from level 73 raid bosses.
On the same matter, and probably the better question, what would be the hit cap for level 70 trash mobs?
The dual wield penalty against a level 72 mob is 25% on white attacks, and 6% miss on specials. As such, you need a minimum of 6% hit to ensure your specials don't miss (easily done with 5/5 Precision and 16 hit rating, or about 95 hit rating without precision). On a level 70 mob, the dual wield penalty is 24%, and 5% miss on specials. A raid boss is 28%reg / 9% specials... so the hit caps for 70 and 72 mobs aren't massively lower than a raid boss.
Since the hit cap is about 360 with 5/5 precision (or about 440 without precision) on a raid boss, dropping back to a level 72 mob is a hit cap of about 310 with precision (or 390 without). Hit cap on a level 70 is a bit lower than that... but realistically, you should gear for the highest level mob you expect to be hitting.
Given that heroics are "mini-raids", the basics required for a Kara level raid are a good level to aim for. This is 200 hit with 5/5 precision, or 280 hit without precision. Due to the lower level mobs in heroics, you can probably run with 160hit and 5/5 precision or 240 hit without precision and do fine... but honestly, the more hit the better in most cases. And on the occassions you do raid, you'll want the higher level hit to ensure you are effective dps.
After using this thread for all it's worth, and reaching approximately 90-95% of my max possible buffed DPS (based on figures in spreadsheet), I'm wondering how I can get the last 10% on a boss like tidewalker. I find myself particularly unsure what to do with time while I'm waiting for either my rupture or slice n dice to tick out. If I'm on a boss and have 5 combo points, a rupture which is up, and a slice n dice which is also up, what do I do? Is it best to simply sinister strike repeatedly until the rupture ticks off (essentially missing out on combo points), or should I be refreshing the rupture and losing the damage it would have done had I let it tick out?
So, the first thing to keep in mind is that the spreadsheets assume 100% time on target; so if you get, for instance, graved on Tidewalker, you probably won't be able to hit the number. Also note that Rogue DPS has a lot of variance, so you can easily be 50-100 DPS under one week and 50-100 DPS over the next without doing anything different.
Regarding energy management: my general approach is to wait for energy to regen a bit before throwing whichever finisher is up next; you can safely let energy tick up to 60 or so without being in danger of capping out. But using 2/5 T4, you will generally end up burning some SnD time - and that's okay.
So, the first thing to keep in mind is that the spreadsheets assume 100% time on target; so if you get, for instance, graved on Tidewalker, you probably won't be able to hit the number. Also note that Rogue DPS has a lot of variance, so you can easily be 50-100 DPS under one week and 50-100 DPS over the next without doing anything different.
Regarding energy management: my general approach is to wait for energy to regen a bit before throwing whichever finisher is up next; you can safely let energy tick up to 60 or so without being in danger of capping out. But using 2/5 T4, you will generally end up burning some SnD time - and that's okay.
Yes I've noticed that I'm not able to reach the number the sheet provides, though I still feel it's a good benchmark so to speak, so that I know how well I'm performing based on my gear/spec, not everyone else's. So waiting for either rupture/SnD to drop off is better than simply spamming SS in the interem, good to know...thank you.
Also, are there any macro's you suggest? I keep thinking one would be nice to pop my trinket, hit BF, etc., but I'm not sure as I've never used a macro before. Thoughts?
Also, are there any macro's you suggest? I keep thinking one would be nice to pop my trinket, hit BF, etc., but I'm not sure as I've never used a macro before. Thoughts?
I use a big red button macro along the lines of "/castsquence reset=120 Bloodlust Brooch, Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush"
That pops BB and BF essentially simultaneously, since the trink isn't on the GCD, then AR. If you don't use all three within 2 minutes, it resets to the beginning.
So for what it's worth, the time you really need to drop hemo in my opinion is when you set foot into Hyjal. And the reason is not because you start moving into Tier 6 gear slowly and inexorably. It's because you really start losing the benefit of your hemo charges. Too often there isn't enough physical dps on the mob and you are renewing hemo before the charges are used up. And for the first time in a long time, your performance on trash is going to matter.
Since you are also going to begin getting tier 6 gear in the coming weeks and your spec is going to begin to fall behind, you may as well go ahead and respec combat at that point.
I think this is a pretty accurate in regards to hemo vs combat. As someone that is currently raiding in ssc/tk I can tell you that I'm competitive (this is before hemo debuff is factored in) with damage as mace spec + hemo. I consider myself the Utility rogue for the raid.
The main idea I'd like to push across in this thread is to other rogues that don't really find cookie cutter combat appealing, that yes you can do very well as hemo spec (with all the bells and whistles) at least till hyjal.
The main idea I'd like to push across in this thread is to other rogues that don't really find cookie cutter combat appealing, that yes you can do very well as hemo spec (with all the bells and whistles) at least till hyjal.
Yeah, you can do well with it.
But you comparing your dps to there is failing to account for differences in player skill. And therefore, like all non-theorycraft "I did this vs. so and so" posts, doesn't really tell people much except that you are a solid rogue vs. your guildmaters.
The theorycraft tells people the objective reality.
Hi everyone. I've been reading these forums a bit since I started raiding. I have a question that's been bugging me since I've seen the loot come out from 2.4. I'm not sure if this is the best topic for this question, but it's the most relevant one I could find. Anyways...
I am a rogue specced 5 Fist Spec / 5 Sword Spec. My guild is 2/6 SSC, and currently working on Morogrim and ZA while farming Kara, Gruuls, and Mag.
Currently the best weapons I've been able to get my hands on were the [Gladiator's Right Ripper] / [Gladiator's Quickblade]. I don't like PVP enough to farm a different set of gear to run Arena for S2/S3. I've been waiting for some good PVE weapons and it seems 2.4 might help with that.
The first thing I have my eye on is [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. Now, the weapon is a bit fast for a mainhand, but it has way better PVE stats and an overall larger DPS. Now, for an offhand, I was considering [Quickening Blade of the Prince]. Of course staying 5 Fist Spec / 5 Sword Spec, and a sword being required for the extra chance to proc combat potency.
But I also started considering [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery]. Again, way better stats and standard DPS than my current offhand or the [Quickening Blade of the Prince], but I'm assuming the lost of the additional attack for the extra 5% crit would actually lower DPS by a significant amount, right?
On the other hand, how would a straight Sword spec with [Talon of Azshara] / [Quickening Blade of the Prince] compare to Vanir / Quickening Blade? I believe the Vanir combo would out-dps it despite the Talon's faster speed, correct?
I think, based on my limited understanding of theorycraft, my options are basically between Vanir / Sword and Vanir / Vanir. Now all along I've considered Vanir / Sword to be the way to go, can someone confirm this would be the highest DPS?
I think, based on my limited understanding of theorycraft, my options are basically between Vanir / Sword and Vanir / Vanir. Now all along I've considered Vanir / Sword to be the way to go, can someone confirm this would be the highest DPS?
The combo that gives the highest dps is the set of gear and talents that give you the highest dps number you can get in one of your friendly neighborhood rogue spreadsheets.
I think, based on my limited understanding of theorycraft, my options are basically between Vanir / Sword and Vanir / Vanir. Now all along I've considered Vanir / Sword to be the way to go, can someone confirm this would be the highest DPS?
a sword being required for the extra chance to proc combat potency.
Just wanted to pick out this phrase. Sword spec attacks proc extra MAIN hand attacks. A sword in the offhand will proc sword spec, causing your MH to attack again, not your OH. While this means that the OH sword spec procs won't let you get more combat potency, they will be swinging a substantially slower weapon which is not affected by the dual wield penalty. Also, since the extra attack is considered an auto-attack, it is not AP-normalized. Thus, a fast 1.4 or 1.5 speed OH sword is effectively generating 2.6+ speed MH attacks which benefit a whole lot more from your AP.. and can then proc WF .
I thought a long time over this question I have. Crit hits can not be dodged parried missed or glanced, so is crit something like hit. So if you have enought crit you will have less dodge, miss, parry and glancings.
I can recall a theory from past which says the same thing. So than if you have much hit, you will drop you crit chance down because you have a chance on more white normal hits. That means that to much hit is not good for your DPS because your critrate is dropping.
My question now is, is it true or not? Becasue i have now 359hitraiting with hitfood and that now 3 Id's and i have 6-10% less crit in all fights as before. If its only onetime I would say I had no luck but 3id's now? :/
03/07/08, 2:43 PM
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