I think this is a pretty accurate in regards to hemo vs combat. As someone that is currently raiding in ssc/tk I can tell you that I'm competitive (this is before hemo debuff is factored in) with damage as mace spec + hemo. I consider myself the Utility rogue for the raid.
The main idea I'd like to push across in this thread is to other rogues that don't really find cookie cutter combat appealing, that yes you can do very well as hemo spec (with all the bells and whistles) at least till hyjal.
Back before patch 2.3 I used to top most meters as trispec hemo, with a personal dps usually ahead of the others melees, and I've done the same as mutilate too on several ssc/tk/hyjal bosses. Still doesn't change the fact that I'm contributing even more as combat swords. Yes, there are others specs that certainly might be viable depending on your frame of reference, but there really isn't much choice if you want to min/max.
With competent tanks you should be abusing ar+bf on trash long before you enter hyjal. Faster trash clears = more bosses.
I thought a long time over this question I have. Crit hits can not be dodged parried missed or glanced, so is crit something like hit. So if you have enought crit you will have less dodge, miss, parry and glancings.
I can recall a theory from past which says the same thing. So than if you have much hit, you will drop you crit chance down because you have a chance on more white normal hits. That means that to much hit is not good for your DPS because your critrate is dropping.
My question now is, is it true or not? Becasue i have now 359hitraiting with hitfood and that now 3 Id's and i have 6-10% less crit in all fights as before. If its only onetime I would say I had no luck but 3id's now? :/
You have an interesting understanding of the hit-table.
It is correct that crits can not be dodged, parried, missed or glanced, but this is because a crit is a converted hit. Hit rating neither lowers your crit-rate nor does it lower your overall-dps. It adds to your white-dps and as a result increases overall dps. Seems you got either an addon that has a wrong understanding of the hit-table and showing wrong percentual results or you are having, as you already said, bad luck.
I thought a long time over this question I have. Crit hits can not be dodged parried missed or glanced, so is crit something like hit. So if you have enought crit you will have less dodge, miss, parry and glancings.
I can recall a theory from past which says the same thing. So than if you have much hit, you will drop you crit chance down because you have a chance on more white normal hits. That means that to much hit is not good for your DPS because your critrate is dropping.
My question now is, is it true or not? Becasue i have now 359hitraiting with hitfood and that now 3 Id's and i have 6-10% less crit in all fights as before. If its only onetime I would say I had no luck but 3id's now? :/
Define "before." What you are seeing could be the result of putting a lot of emphasis on hit rating at the expense of agility or crit rating. In other words, what are the gear differences between your "before" state and the "now" state for which you have 3 instances in your sample size (assuming id = raidID)?
Also, to punctuate koaschten's point regarding the attack table, allow me to illustrate what he was saying (it may also be helpful to other readers not familiar with the attack table). Consider that you swing your sword in a normal white hit against a boss. The result of your swing, in order of priority, is as follows:
1. Attack Misses
2. Attack is Dodged
3. Attack is Parried
4. Attack is Glancing (cannot crit)
5. Attack is Blocked
6. Attack is Critical
7. Attack is Normal
Now, assuming that you are attacking the boss from behind, the ability of the attack to be parried or blocked is eliminated. With the changes to weapon skill, you will always have a 25% chance to glance against a level 73 boss. Furthermore, it is generally accepted that a boss has a 6.5% dodge rate. Thus, your attack table looks like this:
So, as long as your swing does not miss, get dodged, or glance, then it has the chance to crit. If your character's crit rate is in excess of the residual percentage left after these other options then you are in a state of being crit capped (this is really hard to achieve). Thus, if you keep the same crit rate and simultaneously decrease your miss rate, you should actually see more crits. In practice, though, we see a lot of trade-offs in our gear choices and I suspect that what you personally are seeing is that you have decreased your miss rate at a large expense of your crit rate (Ooo I want that 10 hit rating instead of 20 crit rating or 15 agility, etc.). Using a spreadsheet for gear decisions is a helpful, unbiased way of taking into account all of the stats on items to determine what is truly better. Hit is good but it is not everything. ;-)
My Gear changed from S3 Mainhand and OffHand Sword to Illidan Mainhand and Mother OH, hyjal Exalted ring to Akama Ring. Thats all. And can you tell me a good spreadsheet? I had two in past but i formated my PC completly and cant remember where i got them from exactly.
I've spent the last 2 days reading this forum... very very nice community with very interesting infos about WoW Mechanics. During my research I haven't read much about my spec 31/0/30... I guess there is more in here, but these are the only few things I've found about it (this page and the next one):
I've seen that most people played it with a combat equip, but from my experience the spec Hemo Seal Fate need specific items, many of which can be bought throug PvP (bg, arena and badges). I've also seen that this is not a very popular spec in PvE, nor in PvP. I've always been playing it and I've only moved few talents to try and always improve my personal dps.
This spec is focused on saving energy and generating combo points. Equip and gems must provide the highest crit change possible and that's why I've socketed every single gem with +crit rating (except 2 sockets, to meet the meta socket requirements). The most important thing is to reach the yellow damage hit cap and possibly not exceed it.
I'm dressed with some Vindicator items, Dory's Embrace, Gladiator Shiv, Merciless Slicer, two clafts and few drops from Karazhan. We've been playing in TK (Void, Solarian), SSC (Hydross, Lurker), Grull Lair and ZA for quite a long time and I'm still waiting for some interesting drops for my spec (always oriented to highest crit and highest AP).
At the moment, unbuffed, I have 1792 AP, 31,41% crit chance, 145 hit rating (with no precision), no expertise, but about 750 Armor Penetration (due to Serrated Blades plus passive item stats). I've enchanted Mongoose only on the main hand and thinking about the offhand (now enchanted with +20 Agility). I also need to use DP on offhand and main hand to keep it up with 3/5 Improved Poisons.
In raid I'm usually one of the top dps. Our top dps, other than me are a Full Fire Mage, one Affliction Lock and 2 Combat Rogues. On bosses like Grull my advantage is a very hight DOT Uptime that allows me to keep a high dps even during the Ground Slam (I'm usually the first in this king of chart, before every lock and shadow priest). The crit chance during the encounter can modify very much my totale damage. An example: this evening at the Void I had a crit chace of 31% with white damage and just 26% with Hemorrage... this means fewer number of combos and lower total dps, about (1,4% less than the top dps combat rogue). My actual crit chance should be 34%-35% buffed with no feral druids in the party. Some crit reduction is normal due to the combat system for yellow damage: every dodge o parry reduces my total hits and the related total crits. When crits reach 35% I'm usually the first or second in the total dps.
My cycle is usually 5r/5r/5r/5e... very simple. I just rupture and see how much energy and combos I can get before refreshing it. I dont' use SnD and may try it out soon. But first, I need to choose the best combination with Poisons and related talents. I don't know how good it is, but with my armor penetration, on Void, I had an everage crit with 5 combos Eviscerate of 2460 damage and the top crit of 2900 damage. On trashes I crit even more, about 3200 damage. These high numbers are in part coused by the talent Dirty Deeds which increse my damage by 20%.
Let me know your thinkings about this spec and tell me what kind of test I should run if you're as curious as me to compare combat rogues vs seal fate hemo rogues, please. Thank you.
...
Let me know your thinkings about this spec and tell me what kind of test I should run if you're as curious as me to compare combat rogues vs seal fate hemo rogues, please. Thank you.
P.S.
Sorry for my english. :P
So, in the spirit of full disclosure, i'm also running as 31/0/30 right now. Its a very, very fun build, with what I consider to be a dynamic, tight, interactive play style. It's somewhat unpredictable- which i particularly enjoy, after mindlessly spamming SS for months as combat.
however.... it simply *will not* produce as much sustained DPS as a combat centric build, or even as a tri-spec hemo build, even if played absolutely perfectly- and, regretfully, if i'm reading your post correctly, you are not getting the best performance out of your (already sub-par) build.
you've stated that you generally run 5r/5r/5r/5e. by doing this, your (mostly likely) breaking three of the seven commandments of rogue DPS:
Don't let your energy cap out.
Don't let SnD drop.
Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.
the cycle you've outlined above may be maximizing your rupture uptime, but are you running SnD at all? if your not, your missing out on a significant portion of your DPS.
When I raid as 3x/0/3x, i normally use what i call a 2+R/2+S cycle- meaning, I rupture as soon as I have at least 2CP, and I SnD when I have at least 2CP. typically, I use a macro something like this:
/castsequence Rupture, hemorrhage, hemorrhage, Slice and Dice, hemorrhage, hemorrhage
this ensures that every rupture and every SnD will be at least 2cp, but in practice, most are much more, due to procs from relentless, or 4pc t4, or either of the hemos critting. If i find myself in the odd position where I have CP and rupture is still ticking and SnD has plenty of time, I "burn" the 5cp on a CB-evis and start over again.
this build, and the cycle that i've put in place with it, is fun. Its somewhat effective, as well. but, at the end of the day, it simply cannot compete with combat, due to:
dual weild spec - this is known to be the most efficient way to spend points to improve your dps. >50% of your DPS is white damage, half of those swings are OH swings, and this dramatically increases the DPS of those swings. improved SnD - SnD is an incredible dps boost, but it costs energy to maintain. this talent lets me spend less energy keeping SnD up and more energy doing DPS. combat potency imo, this is the "crown jewel" of combat- basically, rogue dps is based on energy generation, and this (coupled with the correct speed OH weapon) is the best mechanism for gaining energy. precision increasing hit increases the amount of OH hits that you have, which increases combat potency, which increases your dps. its a wonderful virtuous cycle.
if your out to have fun, stick to your current spec. If you want to stick to your current spec and improve your DPS, try to incorporate SnD, at a minimum. If you want to bring the best possible DPS to your raid, respec combat, or at a minimum, incorporate as many of the talents listed above into your build.
this build, and the cycle that i've put in place with it, is fun. Its somewhat effective, as well. but, at the end of the day, it simply cannot compete with combat, due to:
dual weild spec - this is known to be the most efficient way to spend points to improve your dps. >50% of your DPS is white damage, half of those swings are OH swings, and this dramatically increases the DPS of those swings. improved SnD - SnD is an incredible dps boost, but it costs energy to maintain. this talent lets me spend less energy keeping SnD up and more energy doing DPS. combat potency imo, this is the "crown jewel" of combat- basically, rogue dps is based on energy generation, and this (coupled with the correct speed OH weapon) is the best mechanism for gaining energy. precision increasing hit increases the amount of OH hits that you have, which increases combat potency, which increases your dps. its a wonderful virtuous cycle.
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?
Other people told me "You need more hit rating", but, from my point of view, a critical has many more advantages (Seal Fate procs, BM Trinket Procs, Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus and the possibility to improve Yellow and White damage at the same time (also thinking about a crit like a double hit).
I don't use SnD at all... well... I might start now and see what happens. I don't use it simply because I didn't Improve it and then consider it a waste of energy. I personally didn't know anything about cicles... from a newbie point of view a 4or less CP finisher is a risk of not getting the Relentless Strikes proc.
My cicle is not exactly has I wrote... that was a sort of example... I usually do an Eviscerate (CB Crit if available) as soon as I can keep up ruprture. I'm gonna try these days some of your suggestions. I've already seen some increase in damage from using SnD at a poison/bleeding immune boss like the Void. Last night my damage was divided in 47,7% Melee (147k), 32,2% Hemorrage (99k) and 20,1% Eviscerate (62k). I've calculated the energy cost of 33 Eviscerates, thn for how long I could keep up SnD with that energy (over 16 minutes on an encounter of less than 8 minutes) and then calculated how many Eviscerates I could still do with the rest of the energy. The result for an average Eviscerate plus an additional 30% of melee damage bring me to an increase of 13k damage over a total of 308k that would be without SnD. That's an additional 23% damage. I can't wait to try it out!
Things become different when we come to a non-immune poison/bleed boss... I recall that in these case my average melee damage don't get over 40%... I don't have any number to see how good SnD could be in this case, but I will see.
You said you're using my same spec. With 145 hit rating which poisons would you use and where? Where would you put the 3 poisons talents you have availble (3/5 Vile or 3/5 Improved)? Would your suggestions work without using SnD? Please tell me and thank you again for help! ^_^
P.S.
I found you on the armory and let me express my opinion about your talents and mainly about your equip (check me on wow europe armory if you are curious and let me know your opinion). We have pretty similar specs, but you just have 1/2 Quick Recovery... that talent really helps out in raid and in PvP too. I have it 2/2... think about it. Your hit rating is the highest I've ever seen! You'd do very well in combat sword spec. The biggest problem is your crit chance... I have almost 32% in PvE equip and over 30% in PvP... Seal Fate need you to crit... it's not just some extra combo, it's the way it's meant to be played! Vindicator's Belt, Neck and Ring really help increasing your crit rating... and don't forget you sockets. These items also help in PvP... I've seen your arena rating is pretty low... maybe you should find a lock to play with. I can just say that in a 2vs2 arena against a lock and priest discipline I did 50k damage trying killing that damn lock... this spec is really fun and in my opinion is awesome both PvP and PvE. In my calculation I never mentioned the Hemo debuff... I usually just talk in term of personal dps.
Last edited by Coffin Burier : 03/11/08 at 6:52 AM.
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?
Other people told me "You need more hit rating", but, from my point of view, a critical has many more advantages (Seal Fate procs, BM Trinket Procs, Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus and the possibility to improve Yellow and White damage at the same time (also thinking about a crit like a double hit).
I don't use SnD at all... well... I might start now and see what happens. I don't use it simply because I didn't Improve it and then consider it a waste of energy. I personally didn't know anything about cicles... from a newbie point of view a 4or less CP finisher is a risk of not getting the Relentless Strikes proc.
...
See, these paragraphs show that you have some fundamental misunderstandings about the rogue class.
A crit does have advatages compared to a hit, but crit rating is (in general) not better than hit rating. Crit rating is valued such that it takes nearly 50% more crit rating to produce 1% crit than it does hit rating to produce 1% hit. Thus, you get more bang for your buck from stacking +hit. (This is true even for a 3x/0/3x spec such as yours, although less so than for a combat spec.) So, your criticals would have to be 50% better than your hits for crit rating to be better than hit rating. Your case is, interestingly, one where the value of crit rating actually does approach or surpass the value of hit rating, mostly because you ignore white damage overwhelmingly in your gearing and play style.
Second, I have never seen a rogue where SnD should not be the first priority finisher. Even in your case, where white damage will make up a much smaller chunk of your output than many other classes due to your abysmal hit chance and the lack of DW spec, the DPS spreadsheet will tell you that your optimal cycle is 5 SnD + 4 Rupture. If you deal a mere 250 base damage per second white damage (something most rogues achieve with their main hand only), then over the course of 30 seconds SnD is worth 2250 damage. If you deal twice that (which is the more common scenario), then SnD is worth 4500 damage as a finisher. Not only that, but it increases your poison uptime and your chance for certain procs to occur. Your absolutely best case Ruptures are dealing only 2500 (2000 AP + Mangle with your spec) over 16 seconds. More likely, you are looking at ~2200. Since it is relatively easy to keep up SnD + Rupture (even with your spec), you have to ask yourself which is higher: 2500*2 (best case) or 2500 + ~4500?
Third, saying you know nothing about cycles implies that you haven't really read much of this thread or the other, or if you have you haven't really processed it adequately. I would encourage you to read carefully about and then use the spreadsheet called "Rogue DPS Spreadsheet" linked here:
In particular, pay attention to issues surrounding the "Hemo Debuff Estimate". Using the spreadsheet simulator, with your gear (which is arguably at an on-par or higher itemization level than my current gear), you would deal ~10% less DPS than me in an identical raid setting even if we assume all your Hemo charges are getting used by the raid and we are counting those towards your DPS. If we look at your personal DPS only, you would be doing ~22% less than me.
In any case, if you like it, play it. Just don't come in and try to convince us of the "efficiency" of it or any such nonsense. It's been examined, many times, but it just doesn't come close to any other spec in terms of sustained raid DPS. (Heck, even 11/9/41 Shadowstep is superior to it in your current gearset.)
If you like the playstyle of 31/0/30, I would encourage you to try 41/20/0 or 43/0/18 Mutilate sometime. It will have a similar playstyle while delivering vastly superior damage output.
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?
It's my belief that slight flucutations in stats between chars have less impact on damage output than many other factors (see Aldriana's rules of being a rogue). In other words, you may *think* your stats are better due to your higher crit, higher AP, whathaveyou, but you may deal significantly less damage than another 31/0/30 rogue due to your stat allocation and finisher choices (not using SnD is a big one).
To be perfectly honest, I don't believe us telling you that you may have an underperforming build will change your mind, so I think you'll have to do some tests for yourself. First gather a very solid collection of WWS data (for a full raid or two) in your current spec and post it here so we can at least see how you currently perform. Then compare that to:
a) your build but weaving in SnD
b) your build with a +hit focus weaving in SnD
c) another build entirely, perhaps combat or mutilate, played the way the opening post in this thread dictates
Not all of those changes are easy to accomplish, such as regemming for +hit just for a "test", but I guarantee you'll notice significant improvements in your PvE damage.
I am not factoring in PvP at all, which requires a different focus of stats. If you're looking for one single build that will put you in the top percentages of both PvP and PvE, you'll need to start building two separate sets of gear with PvE focused on +hit.
On an aside, like others have posted here, play whatever build makes you the happiest and play it however you like. However, imho, your posts are directed toward min/maxing, so expect a fair amount of input from people telling you that the choices you've made don't match the min/max data so rigorously obtained through years of theorycrafting. In other words, expect some criticisms
Last edited by Professor Hurt : 03/11/08 at 1:08 PM.
In any case, if you like it, play it. Just don't come in and try to convince us of the "efficiency" of it or any such nonsense. It's been examined, many times, but it just doesn't come close to any other spec in terms of sustained raid DPS. (Heck, even 11/9/41 Shadowstep is superior to it in your current gearset.)
I agree with you 110% there. I've been coming to these forums and reading them for quite a very long time now. You've taught me just about everything I need to know rogues (I always knew about the slice n dice, learned about rupture being more dps over evisc).
The posters here have done a lot of amazing analysis and theory crafting and I sincerely thank you all for that.
In short this is a game and you may play it however you wish. If you want to absolutely maximize your dps then you will gear and play in the styles outlined earlier in this thread (page 1).
Coffin - First off, when it comes to things like this I am not a nice person, and have very little tolerance for people who come here thinking they know what they are talking about but have not taken the time to find out they really don't have a clue. If you can't take harsh personal criticism, stop reading now.
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier
I've spent the last 2 days reading this forum... very very nice community with very interesting infos about WoW Mechanics. During my research I haven't read much about my spec 31/0/30... I guess there is more in here, but these are the only few things I've found about it (this page and the next one):
I think you need to spend another couple days reading more, because it is covered, however it is not covered in depth because it is an inferior spec for raid DPS, Arenas, PvP, and every other form of play. Basically to quote A Knight's Tale, "You have been weighed, You have been measured, and You have been found wanting". The spec isn't good, it is never going to be good based on any different combination of gems, stats or gear (however, even there you failed miserably - ideal gear would require the Ashtongue trinket and all Agility Gems in Red Sockets and Agility/Hit in Yellow, NEVER EVER EVER use Crit gems, it is like branding "I am an idiot" on your forehead for anyone with a clue).
I've seen that most people played it with a combat equip, but from my experience the spec Hemo Seal Fate need specific items, many of which can be bought throug PvP (bg, arena and badges). I've also seen that this is not a very popular spec in PvE, nor in PvP. I've always been playing it and I've only moved few talents to try and always improve my personal dps.
It isn't popular because it is a bad spec, that produces inferior results, and when your only job is to do DPS, doing shitty DPS is a bad thing. Arena/BG items are only worth using for PvE when you are so far behind the progression curve that welfare epics have surpassed the ones you can earn with skill, BG/Arena items waste a huge amount of stats on Stam and Resilience, which have essentially 0 value in PvE, therefore these items are not "ideal" or "needed" for 31/0/30, instead they are simply better then the T4 gear that you have access to.
This spec is focused on saving energy and generating combo points. Equip and gems must provide the highest crit change possible and that's why I've socketed every single gem with +crit rating (except 2 sockets, to meet the meta socket requirements). The most important thing is to reach the yellow damage hit cap and possibly not exceed it.
No, the spec is focused around dealing damage, every rogue spec is focused around dealing damage, yours is simply focused on dealing less damage while providing no added benefit. Crit gems are a horrible choice for a rogue, at no point with any spec are you advised to use Crit Gems, if you want to go for a Seal Fate Build the focus switches slightly to Agi over Hit, but never to crit.
I'm dressed with some Vindicator items, Dory's Embrace, Gladiator Shiv, Merciless Slicer, two clafts and few drops from Karazhan. We've been playing in TK (Void, Solarian), SSC (Hydross, Lurker), Grull Lair and ZA for quite a long time and I'm still waiting for some interesting drops for my spec (always oriented to highest crit and highest AP).
Yep, T4 and welfare epics. Let me make this clear, there are no "interesting drops", there are good items and bad items, the good items are good for every spec, the bad items are bad for every spec.
At the moment, unbuffed, I have 1792 AP, 31,41% crit chance, 145 hit rating (with no precision), no expertise, but about 750 Armor Penetration (due to Serrated Blades plus passive item stats). I've enchanted Mongoose only on the main hand and thinking about the offhand (now enchanted with +20 Agility). I also need to use DP on offhand and main hand to keep it up with 3/5 Improved Poisons.
Ok, so you have gutted your hit rating, and thus your white damage, to get up to 31% Crit, and you are too cheap to put a good enchant on your OH, oh, and you use MH Poisons... very nice, not to mention you have 3/5 Imp Poisons and you are using the same poison on MH AND OH... even better, first off you should be able to keep up Deadly at 5 stacks with it just on your OH, even without using S&D, but with S&D you should have no issue. Also, Windfury is the MH buff of choice, not a second Deadly Poison.
In raid I'm usually one of the top dps.
Wow... your raid must really, really suck, I mean the fact that you are even in the top 10 tells me that the rest of your raid also thinks they are rare and unique flowers and probably is full of Arcane Mages, Smite Build Priests, Fire Warlocks, Duel Wield Elemental Shaman, and the like. The fact that you do reasonably well in a group of failures, does not mean your spec is good, or that you are good, it simply means you are "less bad" then the people you play with.
Our top dps, other than me are a Full Fire Mage, one Affliction Lock and 2 Combat Rogues. On bosses like Grull my advantage is a very hight DOT Uptime that allows me to keep a high dps even during the Ground Slam (I'm usually the first in this king of chart, before every lock and shadow priest).
DoT Uptime? You realize your Rupture lasts just as long as properly spec'ed rogues, same with your poison... and for a normal rogue they combine to be about 10-12% of your damage? So your "advantage" is so negligible that it isn't even worth looking at, grats on not looking at the numbers, and making horribly wrong assumptions.
The crit chance during the encounter can modify very much my totale damage. An example: this evening at the Void I had a crit chace of 31% with white damage and just 26% with Hemorrage... this means fewer number of combos and lower total dps, about (1,4% less than the top dps combat rogue). My actual crit chance should be 34%-35% buffed with no feral druids in the party. Some crit reduction is normal due to the combat system for yellow damage: every dodge o parry reduces my total hits and the related total crits. When crits reach 35% I'm usually the first or second in the total dps.
I don't even have the patience to go into why this is wrong, just assume that it is either wrong or irrelevant.
My cycle is usually 5r/5r/5r/5e... very simple.
And very simply, horribly wrong. Not using S&D is a massive failure for a rogue, spec'ed or not, it is the first finisher you use, and you keep it up 100% at all costs.
I just rupture and see how much energy and combos I can get before refreshing it. I dont' use SnD and may try it out soon. But first, I need to choose the best combination with Poisons and related talents.
We already know you aren't using the best combinations of poisons and talents, duel Deadly is not the best for anything.
I don't know how good it is, but with my armor penetration, on Void, I had an everage crit with 5 combos Eviscerate of 2460 damage and the top crit of 2900 damage. On trashes I crit even more, about 3200 damage. These high numbers are in part coused by the talent Dirty Deeds which increse my damage by 20%.
BIG NUMBERS!!1!!!11!1 I do big numbers, that must mean I do good DPS... WRONG. Your high end crits don't mean anything, your sustained, repeatable DPS is what is most important.
Let me know your thinkings about this spec and tell me what kind of test I should run if you're as curious as me to compare combat rogues vs seal fate hemo rogues, please. Thank you.
Your spec and gear show that you have a complete and utter lack of understanding of the finer points of the rogue class, you will get absolutely destroyed by an equally skilled and geared Combat, TSH, Mutilate, and probably even Shadowstep Rogue. The test you should run is go to Dire Maul, and beat on the ghosts behind the King for 1-2 hours, record your DPS, go regem and respec to Combat or Tri-Spec Hemo, try again, notice the huge DPS Gain, profit.
Sorry for my english. :P
Your English is fine, next time apologize for not searching more and finding out why this spec sucks.
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?
So you aren't talented enough to play with a correct spec, so you are trying to find a way to justify playing with an inferior one? How about you take the time you spent making these posts, and learn how to properly gem/gear/play as Combat. You aren't going to prove anything, the numbers simply don't work and you are using an inferior spec, you can min-max the spec all you want, but the results are still going to be inferior.
Oh, and my unbuffed stats: 2093 AP, 278 Hit Rating (normally use +20 food), 30.29% Crit, 16 Expertise, ~630 Armor Penetration (+ Warp-Spring and Madness Procs).
Other people told me "You need more hit rating", but, from my point of view, a critical has many more advantages (Seal Fate procs, BM Trinket Procs, Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus and the possibility to improve Yellow and White damage at the same time (also thinking about a crit like a double hit).
Your Point of View is wrong you could possibly argue for Agi being slightly better then hit for a SF build, but Crit is simply too expensive from an itemization budget point of view.
I don't use SnD at all... well... I might start now and see what happens. I don't use it simply because I didn't Improve it and then consider it a waste of energy. I personally didn't know anything about cicles... from a newbie point of view a 4or less CP finisher is a risk of not getting the Relentless Strikes proc.
This is your fatal flaw, you came here acting like you had a clue, and you don't, lurk more, post less, you have a lot of learning to do, everything in that statement is wrong.
My cicle is not exactly has I wrote... that was a sort of example... I usually do an Eviscerate (CB Crit if available) as soon as I can keep up ruprture. I'm gonna try these days some of your suggestions. I've already seen some increase in damage from using SnD at a poison/bleeding immune boss like the Void. Last night my damage was divided in 47,7% Melee (147k), 32,2% Hemorrage (99k) and 20,1% Eviscerate (62k). I've calculated the energy cost of 33 Eviscerates, thn for how long I could keep up SnD with that energy (over 16 minutes on an encounter of less than 8 minutes) and then calculated how many Eviscerates I could still do with the rest of the energy. The result for an average Eviscerate plus an additional 30% of melee damage bring me to an increase of 13k damage over a total of 308k that would be without SnD. That's an additional 23% damage. I can't wait to try it out!
This type of math doesn't work, you leave out too many variables for it to come even close to being accurate. Use a spreadsheet, it will help you immensely.
Things become different when we come to a non-immune poison/bleed boss... I recall that in these case my average melee damage don't get over 40%... I don't have any number to see how good SnD could be in this case, but I will see.
Well if you had some hit rating and used S&D like a good rogue, it would be more. Combat typically sees 60-65% of damage from melee, and Tri-Spec Hemo can get over 70%, the fact that your white damage sucks is due to the fact that you are missing almost 20% of the time, and getting dodged another 6.5%, so you are hitting on less then 75% of your swings, and you are hitting at 75% of the speed of a rogue using S&D.
You said you're using my same spec. With 145 hit rating which poisons would you use and where? Where would you put the 3 poisons talents you have availble (3/5 Vile or 3/5 Improved)? Would your suggestions work without using SnD? Please tell me and thank you again for help! ^_^
Use 3/5 Improved, you will need it with your lack of hit. Use S&D, regem to get some more hit.
I found you on the armory and let me express my opinion about your talents and mainly about your equip
You don't get to express an opinion, you have shown yourself to be completely clueless regarding all things rogue.
I've seen your arena rating is pretty low... maybe you should find a lock to play with. I can just say that in a 2vs2 arena against a lock and priest discipline I did 50k damage trying killing that damn lock... this spec is really fun and in my opinion is awesome both PvP and PvE. In my calculation I never mentioned the Hemo debuff... I usually just talk in term of personal dps.
Wow a 1759 rating, you must be the expert on PvP and Arena... just stop now.
I haven't broken this out in a while, but you deserve it:
what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
I was starting to write a post which was going to contain pretty much everything Hanos had to say.. and then when going back to grab some quotes noticed he had finished so I just stopped.
That said, I'm in complete agreement with Hanos (and the several other rogues who have posted). Coffin, your spec is trash, your cycle is idiotic, your gear is wrong. Cease and desist.
Take the advise of 2 rogues who are near the top of the world in terms of damage output. You are wrong, we are right. If you were on my server, I'd put on my T4, join you for a raid or two and top your damage by likely 50% or something stupid. Get a spreadsheet, realize the dps you are losing. Note that the Gear spreadsheet doesn't even model some of the talents in a 31/0/30 build - they are just THAT bad.
For reference: WWS Scoreboard Check out Teron Gorefiend - #4 without either warglaive and no Darkmoon Faire buff. I know what I'm talking about. Hanos/Nessala knows what he's talking about.
In other news, I've updated the first post again. I removed the spec ranking charts entirely, I felt they were misleading and pointless because they only applied to a very specific set of gear and buffs and even then only in one particular spreadsheet model. Most of spec choice boils down to what kind of weapons you have anyway, and I can't make swords drop for anyone. I also fixed up the EP weights, it's no longer a dubious section, and I reduced the number of examples since, honestly, how hard is it to figure out the EP system?
Not that I'm disagreeing with either Latito or Hanos (although I do think they probably could have phrased things a little more politely) - I just wanted to make a brief comment regarding WWS Scoreboard. Now, I'm not saying it isn't a fun point of comparison, and I'm not saying it doesn't take good gear and skill to get onto it. However, I think the larger influence - by a lot - in terms of who is on the scoreboard is a matter of who's guild is most willing to do the insane group buff/heroism/etc stacking necessary for the most ludicrous number. This is particularly true in Hyjal where UF stacking trumps just about everything else; but even on Teron, if your guild is willing to give you a Fury Warrior w/Solarian's Sapphire, a totem-twisting Enhancement Shaman, a Feral Druid, and a Ret Pally (or whatever) as your group + rotate 3-4 heroisms to you + keep Imp FF + CoR up on the boss (and so on), that's going cover a lot of ground in terms of gear/spec minutiae; thus, I'd caution people not to take WWS *too* strongly as a matter of skill.
And now, much as it pains me to do so, I do actually have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues and (sigh) agree with you - you have actually managed to bungle your gear and spec to the extent that SnD doesn't actually make sense.
You currently have 1792 AP, 31,41% crit chance, 145 hit rating, a 98 DPS MH, and a 91 DPS OH. 1792 AP increases your raw DPS per weapon by 128. With a 19% miss chance, a 6% chance to be dodged, glancing blows, and your 31% crit chance, your expected unmitigated damage per hit is pretty much equal to your base damage (1-.19-.06-.06+.31 = 1). Thus your MH autoattack does 226 DPS, and your OH autoattack does 219/2 = 110 DPS, for a total of 336 DPS. A high-armor boss with only Sunder and Faerie Fire as armor debuffs, plus your 750 passive armor pen, has an effective Armor Value of about 3700; thus, your autoattacks do 74% of your unmitigated damage; hence, each second of autoattacking does 249 DPS. Thus, a 5-pt SnD - which effectively gives 6.3 seconds of extra autoattack - gives you a benefit of roughly 1569 damage.
Rupture, on the other hand, does (1000 + .24 * 1792) * 1.3 (Serrated Blades) * 1.3 (Mangle) = 2417 damage, which is actually quite a bit more.
Now at this point, you might be saying "okay, sure, I believe that *unbuffed* rupture might be better, but surely there's no way with raid buffs this continues to be true". Well, regretably, it is. Lets say we throw in an extra 5% crit and 1000 AP for buffs. This increases the damage of Rupture by 1000 * .24 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 406 to 2822. It increases base SnD damage with each hand by 71.5 DPS, or about 107 DPS between the two hands, taking raw DPS to 443; the multiplier on this to get to unmitigated damage is now 1.05 (due to the extra crit) giving 465; reducing this by armor gives autoattack DPS of 344; times 6.3 seconds per SnD is still only 2167 damage. Closer, to be sure, but still inferior.
So, the takeaway is: yes, given your bizzare spec and ridiculous gear choices, you have actually succeeded in bumping Rupture over SnD as the superior finisher, so you are correct to not use it. But you'd still gain a heck of a lot of DPS by resocketing hit/agi and speccing combat, TSH, or Mutilate.
And for those of you who were wondering: a rogue with normal gearing would have at least another 10% hit plus DW Spec, which boosts the SnD damage in the buffed case to ~2750; and Imp SnD adds another 45%, bumping it up to almost 4k. So with the conventional specs (Combat, TSH, etc.) SnD is still clearly better. It's just that if you have pathetically low hit and Serrated Blades but not DWSpec or Imp SnD, Rupture catches up.
Not that I'm disagreeing with either Latito or Hanos (although I do think they probably could have phrased things a little more politely) - I just wanted to make a brief comment regarding WWS Scoreboard. Now, I'm not saying it isn't a fun point of comparison, and I'm not saying it doesn't take good gear and skill to get onto it.
I have to agree with this. Basically high WWS parses are a full guild effort, you have to stack the raid for the fight in a way that you can't use for an entire clear.
I was lucky enough to get my guild to do one high DPS run at Teron, and by that I mean we actually got everyone to use consumables for a fight for once (farm status = taking it easy), we only did it once, we didn't have our A Team online, and the raid wasn't fully optimized and I still hit almost 2600 DPS.
However, especially on a fight like Teron where the value of Heroism is so high due to now short it is, you could perform exactly the same in 2 different raids and see a 700+ DPS difference just due to kill time and Heroisms. Guilds like Vis Maior, Abananax and Disbanded that actually make a guild effort at it are going to be out of reach of the best geared and played person in a guild that doesn't.
It would be really interesting if there was some completely independent DPS benchmark like the old Patchwerk, but currently you have to dig through the parses and break them down to get anything approaching an accurate comparison.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Fair enough, Ald. I certainly agree - Buff stacking is going to be the biggest source of damage difference for anyone on WWS Scoreboard. Granted you certainly need to know what your doing and have good gear to get on there in the first place.. a rogue with chained Unholy Frenzies is just plain going to do more damage than one without. As for Teron, I realize my guild is a big in the "extreme" end of things what with taking 3 healers and all and optimizing groups quite heavily for dps. That said, the warrior in my group does not use a Solarians Trinket, I get 1 Bloodlust and no Imp FF. And even so - most of that you can pick out from WWS if you read between the lines. But yea, I'm not saying I'm the best, just trying to add a little bit more credibility that "I'm right because I say so". And yes, WWS Scoreboard IS fun. Not a lot left to do otherwise at this point . Maybe I shouldn't of opened that can of worms though..
As for the Rupture > SnD stuff.. wow. I'm not sure what surprised me more, the fact you put in the time and effort to work that out (ok, 3 minutes vs countless hours on the spreadsheet.. guess I shouldn't be surprised at all) or the fact someone managed to find a build and gearset where Rupture actually beats SnD.
On the topic of politeness - sure, we could be more polite. But really if someone is doing something that wrong it often takes more than a polite "Sorry, I think you could do better if you tried XYZ" to get them to realize there is a pretty good reason why their "amazing discovery" isn't covered anywhere. I'd be happy to help someone improve their performance - I do so quite regularly for other rogues on my server (friends, guildmates, alts of friends, rogue-friends of friends, etc). If however you're going to try and pitch the idea that your vastly inferior spec is somehow viable, I feel as though I owe it to other potentially unsure rogues to shut down that inferior spec quickly and abruptly.
In other news, I've updated the first post again. I removed the spec ranking charts entirely, I felt they were misleading and pointless because they only applied to a very specific set of gear and buffs and even then only in one particular spreadsheet model. Most of spec choice boils down to what kind of weapons you have anyway, and I can't make swords drop for anyone. I also fixed up the EP weights, it's no longer a dubious section, and I reduced the number of examples since, honestly, how hard is it to figure out the EP system?
As always, feedback is welcome.
Im just wondering what changes happend or coming that change the EP weights of t6 (16/41+4) EP so dratic?
On the topic of politeness - sure, we could be more polite. But really if someone is doing something that wrong it often takes more than a polite "Sorry, I think you could do better if you tried XYZ" to get them to realize there is a pretty good reason why their "amazing discovery" isn't covered anywhere. I'd be happy to help someone improve their performance - I do so quite regularly for other rogues on my server (friends, guildmates, alts of friends, rogue-friends of friends, etc). If however you're going to try and pitch the idea that your vastly inferior spec is somehow viable, I feel as though I owe it to other potentially unsure rogues to shut down that inferior spec quickly and abruptly.
I couldn't agree more! Basically these boards are viewed as a place where people can come to get the right answer, where stuff has been tested, and we can back it up with facts, not ideas and feelings. People who come here and ask about a spec or a gearing decision are greeted warmly, and receive all the help they could want, hell we even plug their gear into the spreadsheet for them. However, people who come here and start making statements, based on napkin math, feelings and personal opinion, and stating things like "HAI GUYZ, LOC WAT I DID, I R 1377!1!@!", and talking about how "This is the best way to play this spec, and this is ideal", if we don't curb stomp it early and hard some poor rogue will come along, read it, go "Cool, I want to try that", and end up getting shafted by bad info.
I like to think I have helped a ton of people with spec and gear advice, explained mechanics, etc., however I will be the first to admit that I my not the nicest of people and unlike Ald, I let my feeling/personality show a little more, and posts like the ones he made make my blood boil (someone else did the same thing a couple weeks ago - with similar results).
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
More stats simply make everything worth more, I am assuming you are comparing the values at different tiers of gear. Try adding 100 crit rating, 400 AP, and 100 Haste to either spreadsheet and see what happens to the EP Weights. Everything still has the same relative vlaue, it is simply worth more.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
Im just wondering what changes happend or coming that change the EP weights of t6 (16/41+4) EP so dratic?
The last version of the EP charts used a lackluster set of buffs and also left out [Dragonspine Trophy] from the "model" gear used to calculate them. As always, the EP values are general guidelines, if you have any reason to doubt their applicability to your specific gear and raid buff situation (note that I've listed out the raid buffs that were used this time), you should consult the Gear Spreadsheet.
In other news, I've updated the first post again. I removed the spec ranking charts entirely, I felt they were misleading and pointless because they only applied to a very specific set of gear and buffs and even then only in one particular spreadsheet model. Most of spec choice boils down to what kind of weapons you have anyway, and I can't make swords drop for anyone. I also fixed up the EP weights, it's no longer a dubious section, and I reduced the number of examples since, honestly, how hard is it to figure out the EP system?
As always, feedback is welcome.
With Spinels now being vendor-purchasable, it's probably now feasible to socket them in stuff; I might thus rewrite the section on epic gems a bit to allow this option.
Originally Posted by Latito
As for the Rupture > SnD stuff.. wow. I'm not sure what surprised me more, the fact you put in the time and effort to work that out (ok, 3 minutes vs countless hours on the spreadsheet.. guess I shouldn't be surprised at all) or the fact someone managed to find a build and gearset where Rupture actually beats SnD.
To be honest, I was originally doing some numbers to try to add some evidence to the parade of criticism - to date we'd been spending a lot of time asserting that he was wrong, but hadn't actually supported it with too much evidence. Which is not to say that we were wrong, just that I figured a more analytical slant might help get the point across. I was as surprised as anyone when the numbers worked out the way they did, and had to go back and change the tone of my post after I finished the calculations.
I'd also note that it's more the spec than the gear, per se; specifically, the combat of Serrated Blades (increased Rupture damage), none of the talents that boost SnD damage (no Imp SnD, no DW Spec, no Precision, no Combat Potency, etc.), and none of the buffs that help SnD (notably WF). This is probably going to be a fundamental property of middling-subtlety no-combat builds - if you ran the numbers on the ever-popular 43/0/18 spec I imagine you'd get a similar answer. In fact, I almost wonder if 43/0/18 might not to better with a Rupture/Eviscerate cycle than an SnD/Rupture cycle. Not that it's a great build anyway, but it's perhaps worth thinking about.
Anything related to 2.4 (such as increased availability of epic gems) is intentionally still left out of the first post and will be added in the near future, since it seems like Sunwell testing is nearing its end (at least, I hope, would hate to see a Kil'jaeden kill on PTR).
Anything related to 2.4 (such as increased availability of epic gems) is intentionally still left out of the first post and will be added in the near future, since it seems like Sunwell testing is nearing its end (at least, I hope, would hate to see a Kil'jaeden kill on PTR).
Ah, okay, no problem, then. I suspect we still have another ~2 resets to go on PTR, as in order to tune Kil'jaeden they probably will let some people fight him. Whether or not they tune him to be killable or not is an open question, but given that M'uru still needs some serious balancing I'd guess they'll give us at least another day or two to mess with him and then move on to testing Kil'jaeden.
Oh, and re: the rudeness thing. I wasn't so much criticizing, per se, as commenting. Some of us have more abrupt styles of critique than others, and that's fine. And I really have no objection to deflating the egos of people who believe that they know better than the combined efforts of the theorycrafting community over the last two years. It just seemed perhaps a bit over the top in this case, as his original post, while certainly sorely misled, wasn't *quite* asserting that we were all idiots - it reads (to me) more as "hey, I tried this, it seems to sort of work, why hasn't there been any discussion of it?" more than "you all are idiots". And the response - particularly Hanos's lengthy post - struck me as getting a bit repetitive on the "you're an idiot" point. This is not to say that he isn't sorely misled; simply that I think he'd probably get the point after the first half dozen assertions to that effect. It's certainly a little more over-the-top than *I* would have gone, but I'm not really objecting.
03/10/08, 9:00 AM
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