Hey to someone who knows rogue GEAR and JUST stuff like that

ok i know the basics of the whole thing you guys wrote it was very helpful but i had the thought what if a rogue grabbed druid tanking gear? and dodge and stamina chant and gem it up to where your upwards high 30%-low 40% dodge range with high hp and high armor for like pvp you would be sacraficing lots of ap and lots of crit and what not but you would have surviveablility which rogues never had we wouldn't be soo squishy. and even though we are sacraficing all that if we just had weapons with killer dmg like merc. glad swords or what ever you would still pump out a good amount of dmg on things. so i was just wondering if it would work like im thinking it would?


and to add to it im judging some of this off the druid tanking gear in 2.4 from badges

You'll probably be a decent feral tank. In bear form. When rogues get it. Until we do, this doesn't serve our main and only role as dps in raids.

You will probably be better served asking those questions in the PvP forum. This thread is primarily about rogues and raiding.

Hello, I am currently in the process of dusting off my programming skills a bit and decided I might try implementing a rogue combat simulator.

What I'm hoping (though not really expecting) is that there might be a single location out there from which I would be able to collect most of the necessary constants and formulas, etc. Between wowwiki, this thread, and the Accepted Theorycrafting thread also on this forum I can find most (likely all) of what I need, just hoping that it might be all condensed as a single list of "Rogue Mechanics" or something of the like somewhere.

If anyone knows of such a thing I would greatly appreciate being pointed in the direction of it.

Thank you all guys. I just wanted first to share informations about this spec and how I thought it would work better. I never doubt that in Combat Sword spec I would fairly increase my damage over other rogue or mage or lock. I'm here also to learn more about a spec I never tryed to play (it may helps my raid mates... a simple example... other rogue eat +20 Agilty instead of +20 Hit Rating).

I don't want to talk badly about my guild... but I just have to let you know that we had I pala retry in our dps roster... with a dps lower than the main tank, but we had it... due to a "fun" political of our Guild Founder. We also have two arcane/fire mages... the strange thing is that they only play in PvE. My guild mates lack in dps and that has never helped me comparing my dps with their. As someone of you said, I may not change my spec, cos I love it even if it sucks. I'd just like to take the best out of it. I already knew crit rating is not the best way to use my available sockets, but I consider it necessary to reach a decent crit rating (it start to be good at 30%, but would be far better at 35%)... Seal Fate becomes useless if you don't crit. I'd like to have enought agility to reach 35% crit chance, but I don't have it.

Two more things... I wrote my stats just to let you know how I oriented my stats (chosing every single drop carefully and waiting for it to drop). I also posted my Eviscerate numbers just to let you understand how much damage increase I reaceave from the armor penetration (cos you all know that Eviscerate damage is not increased by AP). I never thought that seeing big numbers means you're doing a great dps... I actually never see my numbers, due to my close point of view... I only read them in Recount.

This evening I tryed to use SnD at Hydross... that worked greatly! I used to only use Hemo and Eviscerate, but I have to admit that a cicle 5s/5e worked perfectly with an almost perfect timing (the first T4 bonus really helped in this). It was nice to see that at the end of the game I was the first melee for total damage. The percentage of melee damage has been incresed to 55%, then 13% Eviscerate and 32% Hemo.

I also tryed to use IP in main hand and DP in off hand on trash mobs (without SnD)... it was hard to stack DP... never seen more than 4 stacks, the same stacks that very often I've never been able to refresh.

I'll try and let you know more as soon has I have time to take a look at the Spreedsheet (that was the first thing I found on this forum, but wasn't what I was looking for at the beginning).

P.S.
Just to let you know... in PvP I do pretty well with a lock. Arena Rating doen't really help understanding how good this spec can be in PvP... the biggest problems are mine low equip (I've started doing arena recently and don't have one single Veangeful or Merciless Gladiator item (except for the Throuwing Axe) and the fact that on my server we usually meet full Veangeful equipped characthers at 1600 rating. I hope it is not like this in every server cos it's really unfair.

Well actually... it does increase with AP:

Sorry, but wrong again.

I have many +hit rating items (just in case of combat respec) and may try them with SnD to see if an SnD could be more efficient than Rupture. For now I'd just like to try and see what is the best combination of Poisons/Talents keeping my usual gear on and without using SnD... do you think I would still need Improved Poisons 3/5 with DP/DP? Unlyckily we have only one Shaman Resto in our guild and he is usually with dps casters or healers, due to Mana Spring Totem. Could we have a better use of this class even if it's Resto (I don't know much about shamans)?

As you can see, I've surprised you in some way... well... Aldriana did! :P

I also have 5/5 points in opportunity just to increase my Garrote damage and yes, I've tryed to increase my bleeding as better as I could (the +10% AP talents in Subtlety tree is one of the last changes in my spec, not just to increase Melee and Phisycal damage, but bleedings as well). That's why I mentioned my DOT uptime diring raids, before.

Sorry if I've exposed my opinions in such an entusiastic way... before saying anything I should have write : "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!". To clarify... I would never suggest my spec to anybody other than me.

And finally... thank you for the info about Eviscerate. I really didn't know anything about that AP increase. I remember when is was clearly wrote on the abiliy: "Damage is increased by attack power". When I didn't see that anymore (after a past patch) I thought that AP wouldn't increase AP anymore.

I'll let you know more as soon as I read the spreadsheet. Thank you again!

P.S.
Is there any discussion about the spec Combat Potency/Hemo? It should be 0/40/21. I've been surprised that the 3 branches spec you mentioned before (Hemo/Ass/Improved SnD) is such a good one (even if it's not the best).

If you search around I'm sure you can find extensive comparisons of both it and the 0/39/22. It is inferior to TSH for most people.

It's another spec that just doesn't work.

0 Assasination = no Relentless Strikes, Ruthlessness, or Malice - the bread and butter of raid specs. Very difficult to maintain a decent cycle without these. I've tried raiding AR/Prep (0/31/30 - an experiment in avoiding respecs for raid)... and it was frustrating trying to maintain any sort of decent dps cycle (I might have gotten 5s/3r most of the time?). My DPS was easily 10% lower than it should have been, and I learned very quickly the value of the first 11 points spent in the Assassination tree on a raid spec, which is why I spend the 50g to respec every time I raid.

40 combat = pick up Potency... which means you can maintain a better cycle... but you don't have Surprise Attacks, which is just flat out HUGELY useful. Finishing moves can't be dodged = very VERY nice for maintaining a reliable cycle. If you're going to go deep into combat, why ignore the solid 41 point talent in the tree? Not only that, but you've picked up Potency at the cost of Relentless Strikes, Ruthlessness, and Malice. Potency might make up for RS and Ruth... but certainly not 5% lost crit from Malice.

21 sub = hemo. Hemo is great as a cheap 35 energy combo point producer. The hemo debuff is nice. This is OK if you like hemo (many here will say it's crap - I tend to disagree, but am also learning far more of its limitations since messing with combat mace+sword). But if you're going to go 40 points into combat... you'd be better off doing a cookie cutter combat spec than hemo.

In all, you have another "looks good to me" spec that is, quite frankly, very much lacking in every major way. I'm sure there will be others who will be far more in depth on things, as this is just a rough look at how bad 0/40/21 would compare to traditional combat or TSH builds.

Hmm, wow. I guess I may have to rescind my statement about never having seen a rogue where SnD was not the #1 priority finisher.

I was using WF in my set of assumptions; I guess I shouldn't have. (When I pulled his gear over from the armory I just used the DPS spreadsheet buff set that was set up for me, which included WF. That's where the 5s/4r cycle I mentioned came from as well.)

One thing we didn't account for, though, is the difference in poison damage that using SnD will make. Unfortunately, I can't pull up his direct stats at the moment due to armory being bugged out, but I did run simulations for poison damage with and without SnD for 18% miss both in the case of no Vile Poisons and full Vile Poisons. (He has stated he runs 3/5 Improved Poisons, so I made that assumption.) In any case, using SnD to increase weapon speed ups the deadly poison DPS by around 5.5 DPS due to higher average stacking. It's not a lot, but it's still 16*5.5 = 88 damage in favor of SnD that we neglected before. Similarly, over the 16 seconds of Rupture he'd gain a 30% increase in IP procs (if he's using IP) if he was using SnD instead, which is, roughly... (16/(1.5)*(1 - 0.18 - 0.06)*0.36*170)*0.3 ~= 149 damage, which again should be added to SnD's contribution. (Again, I'm assuming 3/5 Improved Poisons here.) For what you have calculated, it's still not enough to make up the gap, but it's getting a lot closer.

On last thing: does SnD, being a % based haste instead of a rating based haste effect, increase the proc chance of things like Mongoose and Executioner, or is their proc chance calculated off weapon speed after all haste effects (percentage and base) have been applied?

Regarding 2pt4 set bonus and addition of my first t5: last night two pairs of the rogue t5 pants token dropped, and to prevent them from being disenchanted, I had to take a pair. Now currently I'm using t4 legs/gloves, so I have the 2pt4 set bonus. My question is this: assuming I get another t5 piece (say gloves for example), do I still lose DPS from the same two pieces of t4? If so, even if I respec for things like improved eviscerate? I'm really not happy about this, and we don't run Mag anymore for me to be able to get the t4 chest, which would be the only other non-downgrade t4 piece I could get to make up for the lost bonus.

I'm pretty sure the answer to my question is that 2pt5 set bonus < 2pt4 set bonus, and that rupture is always better than eviscerate except on bleed immune bosses, but meh...I have to ask the experts.

Also, after doing some research on t5, as well as gear I seem to be getting recently (e.g. bladeangel's money belt, t5 legs), I'm noticing that the higher I get in the "gear chain", the lower my +hit goes (ex: I lose ~26 hit going from t4 legs to t5. I've been socketing with +4/+4 gems, but now I'm wondering if I need to go with +8 hit's. I'm sitting at 262 hit without buffs and without t5 legs. Suggestions here would also be greatly appreciated.

I use the spreadsheet often actually. I don't see how t4 helm is an upgrade. With RED in the helm, t5 pants equipped, I still am -6.99 buffed DPS from where I am right now. Without equipping t5 legs, it's a 8.79 buffed DPS loss.

As far as the shoulders go, with the same glyph and gemming (which I've assumed for the other discussed "upgrades"), it's a 1.46 DPS loss.

What are you doing that you're getting this increase? I like to think that I'm using this right. I've passed both those items several times simply because I was using the sheet and it came up with numbers indicating that those t4 pieces were mild-moderate downgrades. Unless you're saying that I should be getting say, t4 shoulders, because I gain the set bonus again, and 8 stam?

-e- Correction, 11 stam if I get the set bonus.

NvidiaN - by looking at your armory profile, it would seem that a RED in a T4 helm would not be activated for you since you are not fulfilling the requirements of at least 2 blue gems slotted in your gear. That would result in a bit of a dps loss, right there, and I know that one of the spreadsheets tracks what gems you have slotted and will activate or deactivate the meta-gem properties accordingly.

I'm fairly certain that PPM effects work off final attack speed, after all haste effects, both percentage and not, such that using SnD, BF, Mongoose, or any other such thing still does not increase your mongoose/executioner uptime.

Only fixed-% procs will be increased by SnD, and only the ones with no or short internal cooldowns will be increased significantly; off the top of my head, this list basically consists of Sword Spec (which he doesn't have), Combat Potency (likewise), and WF/Poisons. The fact that I neglected the last one in my earlier calculations does in fact mean that SnD fairs a little better, as you've shown; but I don't think poison makes enough difference to totally close the gap; and, frankly, I'm not sure even WF would be enough to make up 500 damage from 1 SnD.

I don't have the spreadsheet handy on this computer ... however, consider the trade-offs on going from your current helm to T4.

Assuming you use glinting noble topaz and RED,
+48 agility (!!)
+3% crit damage
-6 AP
-13 hit rating
-42 crit rating

converting the agility a bit,
1.2% crit and 48 ap ... so you're really netting 42 ap, and losing .7% crit chance ... I think the benefit of the 3% crit damage must outweigh the hit rating unless your gear has you in a very special circumstance that values hit rating extremely highly.

Note: According to fixed AEP values 40 ap > 1% crit, so 42 vs .7% ...

Just to clarify a quick misconception: Hemo itself is a massive DPS increase for one talent point, rivaled only by Relentless Strikes, and much superior to Surprise Attacks. The problem with most Hemo specs is not Hemorrhage itself, but rather the spending of 17 talent points in places that don't actually increase your DPS.

That's why I've been surprised by seeing TSH being a fairly good spec. I think I could never play without Surprise Attacks or Quick Recovery... I have a lv 70 feral druid and that's such a big waste of energy when a finisher get dodged. About gems... for a druid for example, there is no doubt that Agility and some Hit Rating are the gems you need (due to 25 Agi=1% Crit instead of the 40 Agi=1% Crit that you need to have with rogues... and that's why I choosed Crit Rating... anyway... don't try this at home).

I've tryed to run the Spreedsheet. Ok with the respec and many items, but still have problems changing the Main Hand Weapon to sword and then Merciless Gladiator Slicer, changing Backstab to Hemo and changing the original s1/s3/5r cicle to a something more similar to my usual cicles 5r/5r/5e.

This evening I may try your suggestions with poisons at ZA to the bear boss... let's hope there will be enought people to start.

Your mistake is only that you might have taken a step back and said "wait a minute, this is so blatantly obvious a train of thought, surely it has already been considered at some point."

Yes, it has been considered. Since combat rogues are heavily dependent on a lot of different procs (especially Windfury, sword spec, poisons, Combat Potency, and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you have it), hit rating maintains a great deal of its power regardless of whether your special attacks are capped or not.

Also, far more than 50% of your damage comes from white attacks as your gear level increases.

(edit) The EP values were derived from the Gear Spreadsheet, linked in the first post. The calculations are a bit too complex to replicate quickly here.

In summary, (1) you are underestimating the % of damage that is white damage, (2) gem and stat equivalencies on Blizzard's part are different from what they actually mean in practice to various classes and specs within a class, and (3) you are missing a whole crapton of synergy from hit that occurs with combat builds, particularly Sword Spec, Windfury Attack, and Combat Potency. To elaborate on (2), Blizzard sets stat weights one way, but different classes find some stats more valuable than others. Enh. Shamans value crit rating over hit rating; rogues value hit rating over crit rating. Other classes have other weightings, depending on specs and skills.

The analysis is included in the two spreadsheets linked in the first post as well as in the last 76 pages of discussion in this thread, if you care to read it in detail. If not, just take what he posted at face value - it's right.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch. But you see the point.

Right now you are using T4 legs and gloves, however, the T5 gloves are a huge upgrade, but you really want to keep the 2-piece bonus, so if you already have the T5 legs, then picking up the T4 shoulders lets you keep the 2-piece bonus and use your new T5 legs, same if you can pick up the T5 Gloves.

Regarding the helm, you didn't activate the Meta, make sure you have 2 blue or purple gems in your gear in the spreadsheet, I imagine it is a pretty significant DPS increase. I would also allow you to keep the 2-piece T4 bonus with some of the new gear you are getting in T5. The T4 Helm is a great item for a very long time assuming you can wear the shoulders, legs or chest (the gloves kind of suck).

You were clearly right. I did the switching on the gem's and with the t4 helm/gloves, and t5 legs, I ended up with ~15 DPS increase. That is pretty good actually, heh. Guess I shouldn't have passed up t4 all those times. Thanks.

Hello, i am not sure if it has been covered before but should one use Warp Spring Coil over Madness of the Betrayer if you have executioner on mainhand, Boundless Agony and T6 gloves?
Would seem logical to me, but i am not sure how it turns out overall.