Damn, if only someone had a tool that could like.. figure that out for you. Wouldn't that be great? Oh wait.. we do.

Step 1: Read the first post [Roguecraft 101]
Step 2: Use spreadsheet [Rogue Gear Spreadsheet] or [[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet]
Step 3: Profit

In general, WSC is the better trinket provided you are not exceeding the Armor Pen cap on a boss. You should still be fine in that regard.

You just... don't... get it...

1) TSH works well because it has the necessary 11 points in Assassination, the core of all Combat talents (except Potency and Surprise attacks), and adds Hemo. The combination of Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes, and Hemo costing only 35 energy is what makes it easy to maintain a solid 5s/5r cycle (without any T4 set pieces). The issue with TSH is the number of points spent to get Hemo that are put into non-dps talents (as was explained a few posts back). But if you really want to understand why TSH is a reasonable spec (although not ideal), read the hemo thread and stop being surprised.

2) Assuming that rogue mechanics work like druid mechanics is dead wrong. Different classes, things work very differently. So demanding Surprise Strikes or Quick Recovery because of how your Druid works? Just plain stupid. Learn more about rogue mechanics and you'll understand why SS and QR are nice... but other talents are far better.

3) Regarding gems. As mentioned in a recent post above... 40 AP is better than 1% crit. By gemming for crit rating instead of AGI, you are losing dps. Hell, since you are using deadliness... it may even be better to gem for AP and use the extra 10% from Deadliness to boost dps more than AGI gems would. Rogue's aren't druids. Don't think that because 40agi = 1% crit that crit rating is better, just because for druids it's easier to get crit from agi. Different classes... different mechanics... VERY different gem and gear needs. As has been pointed out by MANY people, you fail to understand the basics of rogue mechanics... and gem with crit when you should be doing AGI or AP. Stop thinking that a rogue works like a druid, and you *might* start to understand why people are shocked at your spec, gear, and cycle choices. Rogues *like* crit, but they don't *need* it at the expense of AP, AGI, Hit, and other important considerations.

4) If you use the spreadsheet and expect it to spit out your original crap 5r/5r/5e cycle... IT WON'T. Your cycle works better now only because of your truly odd spec and gear choices. As Aldriana pointed out... you have somehow found the ONE spec and gear set that breaks the normal mechanics. And for the record, this is NOT a good thing.

Apparently, you assumed that rogue mechanics worked like druid mechanics when you put your gear/spec together. No wonder you are so off in your understanding of how to play a rogue, and insist on rupture (a bleed effect) instead of SnD (a haste effect that increases white damage - rogues like white damage; druids in cat form... not so much importance on white damage because, well, they work completely differently than rogues!).

I know this is somewhat off topic but today during hyjal trash we had some fun, just wondering if anyone out there with a faster speed record.
(FYI I'm a lefty with a G15 keyboard hence the default UI)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...208_225914.jpg

I was comparing the new badge loot daggers, to see what it would do to DPS.
to my surprise I found out that the offhand was worse then my current OH (Merciless gladiator's shiv) (1 DPS)
To be honest, i cannot get why that is, i would assume that it would be otherwise.

to make the comparison :

Swift blade of uncertainty (SBOU)
103 DPS, 1.5 speed, 24 Hit rating, 44 AP

Merciless gladiator's shiv (MGS):
97.5 DPS,1.4 Speed, 10 HR, 19 CR, 30 AP


OK the MGS has got Crit rating, but the other has got a lot more Hit, of which I think it will make up for the CR loss.
In order to prove this, I altered the stats of the MGS to have the same HR of 24, AP of 44 and CR of 0, which resulted in a gain of 2 DPS.

So the gain of the MGS has to be lying in its speed.

Changing the dps from 97.5 to 103 and the speed from 1.4 to 1.5 results hence in a loss of about 3 DPS. (buffed even 5 DPS)

I hear you say that combat potency does the trick, but looking at the number of attacks per minute, this comes out :
1.5 speed: 40 attacks/minute
1.4 speed: 43 attacks/minute (42.85 to be exact)

I cannot believe that these 3 extra attacks can make up the difference of 5.5 extra DPS.
3 attacks = 3 *20% change to have 15 energy = 9 energy average/minute extra.
If you take an average fight of 4 minutes, that is a meager 1 sinister strike (not even a backstab)

So the difference has to be made somewhere else. Can someone point out where?
Is it lying in white DPS, poison application, did I overviewed a talent, or something else?

It's not me, but i found it @ wow-europe.com:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o...0/hastelol.jpg
0.06 < 0.08 :P

0.1 speed faster approximately equals a 10 DPS increase.

Might be so, but you can't do it with combat potency alone, or am I wrong about this?

I can also see that the speed makes up the difference (experimented with that in the spreadsheet), but how?

I am not stating that the spreadsheet is wrong, I only want to know what does make the difference. (in order to get a better understanding of the mechanics)


For the record : I am a combat dagger rogue with combat dagger spec.

The increase in attack speed (a) creates more combat potency procs, which (b) increase special damage, and (c) increase rupture uptime by compressing cycles slightly. Also, the faster dagger (d) increases deadly poison uptime very slightly and (e) increases the uptime of %-based chance-on-hit effects, such as the AP gain off a crit from [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Tsunami Talisman]. (There are others as well.) The spreadsheets take all of that into account, which is where you see the total increase coming from.

Sure, no one thing you see there is a very large effect, but they add up.

Bloodlust x3 : could have had 4, then he'd be a bit faster.
Mongoose x2
Slice and dice : Looks like he has the 2xT6 set bonus as well.
Blade Flurry
Dragonspine trophy proc
Dual warglaive proc

Don't see a haste potion
Don't see drums of battle. Not sure if these stack with each other.

After 2.4 more than 1 bloodlust, and drums of battle will no longer stack with each other. So, if you plan to break the record, you'll need to hurry.

Bloodlust doesn't stack anyways as far as I know. What you're seeing is 1 x Bloodlust, and 2 x Unholy Frenzy.

There's a lot to browse through so not sure if it has been answered. But I'm just starting to gear myself for raids on my rogue and I'm at a choice to either farm for season 1 sword or wait for spiteblade. I'm just trying to figure out which one would I use over the other? Spiteblade is mine if it drops but I don't want to bother waiting for it if season 1 is better.

As long as your Rupture has already faded from the target apply it ASAP. Be careful, as if you have more AP than when you applied the last Rupture you can overwrite it before it finishes ticking. SnD you should ride out to about 75-80 energy or so before using, assuming it won't fall off in that time, but no higher because you risk losing energy to streak CP procs. One thing I do is after my first SnD I use my AR/BF to super-charge my cycles. After that I don't really have an issue with SnD dropping unless I get absolutely no CP procs.

Just 1 up a spreadsheet's number. Do 4s/5r. The spreadsheet gives you the tightest, perfect scenario, cycle you can do where you sit and dps and everything is proc'ing on average with no major streaks (good or bad). In reality though, streaks happen, and what would be best to do is to weave 3s or 4s depending on situation, but this is a bit more difficult. Just going up by 1 will be the safest route to maintain SnD time.

The DPS spreadsheet takes an averaging approach to energy returns; depending on procs, etc, you may not have the energy to sustain 3s/5r for any given single rotation. On average, though, the sheet has computed that you should be able to sustain it... or close to it.

Some things to remember: the DPS spreadsheet uses a discrete model to check DPS, ie 3s/5r or 4s/5r, but not in between. The Gear sheet uses a continuous SnD model, ie, it can recommend something like 3.7s/5r. The DPS sheet is also looking at the best out of the two cycles; it doesn't guarantee that with a given cycle SnD won't drop. As for Rupture uptime, with a combat build you are pretty much guaranteed to have a Rupture uptime lower than 100%, and that's ok. SnD is the important one.

If you are having an issue keeping the cycle up, try loosening your cycle a bit by using more CPs in the SnD part of the rotation. For example, the sheet recommends 1s/5r for me, but I run with 2s/5r because I that gives me less of a chance for SnD to drop. A looser cycle will reduce Rupture uptime but also reduce risk, so I just use 1 CP over the recommended SnD value. (If you are going from the Gear sheet, round up. 3.7s/5r means that practically speaking, you should run 4s/5r.)

Also, whenever you have to use Eviscerate as a finisher (eg Hydross), remember that it costs an extra 10 energy. You need to make that energy back somewhere. My strategy for making the energy back is to loosen my typical cycle a bit more, which gives more return from Relentless Strikes and lets SnD run a bit longer for extra regen time. For example, I run 3s/5e on Hydross.

Right answer, wrong reason. Anytime you see the terms "high-end damage" or "low-end damage" thrown around, you can be reasonably certain that the statement is incorrect. High-end damage and low-end damage, by themselves, mean nothing.

In terms of *average* damage, which is a more relevant metric, they are actually very close - 237 versus 236.5. This means that the Sinister Strikes will hit almost exactly as hard as each other. And, regardless of whether they do or not, how hard your Sinister Strikes hit, exactly, isn't a very useful metric either. It certainly is a *contributer* in which does more damage, but there are definitely other factors at play. For instance, Siphon of the Nathrezim has higher average damage than the Arena 3 MH Sword; but the Arena 3 MH sword is a vastly superior weapon nevertheless.

The *real* reason why Gladiator's Slicer is better than Spiteblade is that if you work out the amount of damage you do with each, you will probably find that Slicer does a bit more (but don't take my word for it - use a spreadsheet to be sure).

Also, speaking from personal experience: waiting around for a Spiteblade to drop can be a fairly frustrating experience. For instance, I did Kara for about 6 months without ever seeing one drop. So if you have some reasonably alternative you're using right now, you might reasonably wait for it; and if you don't have access to anything comparable or better through other means, you could wait for it. But I suspect neither of those is the case; thus, I would go ahead and get yourself an Arena 1 MH - whether it's actually better or not - because it's something that you're sure to be able to get in a reasonable amount of time, while there's no guarantee that you'll *ever* get a Spiteblade.

May i ask where did you get these numbers ? AFAIK chance to miss same level mob is 5%, bosses are 3 levels above, that means their defense skill is 350 + 3 * 5 = 365, which is higher than my weapon skill (350) by 15.
15 * 0,04 = 0,6% additional chance to miss

5 + 0,6 = 5,6%
5,6 + 19 = 24,6%

Have i missed any major change in these mechanics ?

I think you probably answered your own question right there.

I was reading up on the usage of totems by our shamans.

To be honest, this part is quite confusing to me : if a group contains 1 fury warrior, and 1 rogue, it means that the prerequisite for the Windfury totem is fullfilled (DPS warrior available), but also that for 'Grace of air' (less then half the group is rogue)

am I correct to state that from a 'rogue personal' point of view windfury is better?

Our group consists mainly out of the following composition :

Hunter (BM)
shaman (enhancement)
Rogue (combat dagger)
Warrior (fury)
Hunter/druid (cat form)

So I guess that for the group in total, the grace of air totem is better, because the hunters and/or druids benefit from it more. Is that correct?

But if the group would consist out of warriors and rogues only, the windfury is better, correct?

Furthermore, enabling 'windfury' in the buffs list, does not increase the buffed dps, is that normal ?

I have just noticed that 2 of the epic pvp gems were removed from the list of "must have" gems, i was wondering why that is and if i should not be replacing my rare gems with them anymore.

If there is a DPS warrior in the group, assuming equal gear and a generally equal level of play throughout the party, windfury is always the proper choice. The DPS increase provided to one warrior by Windfury outstrips the DPS increase provided to anything short of a full GoA group otherwise (shammy and 3 ferals/hunters), and if that's the group, your raid leader is doing it wrong.

In the specific example given, Windfury will provide the higher DPS increase; however, as long as a pally tosses Judgement of Wisdom up and is in position to refresh it, your shaman should easily be able to twist GoA/WF.

There was significant testing done back at the start of TBC, we know for a fact that 28% is the duel wield miss rate. A lot of the early testing by rogues was flawed due to the effect of weapon skill at the time, where most rogues were getting 10 weapon skill from talents that was providing a significant amount of hit.

You have the right idea, just the wrong numbers, 5% isn't the duel wield number for even level mobs, it is the miss rate when using only 1 weapon:
* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 70 character with a 350 Weapon Skill:

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
* v. Level 71 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
* v. Level 72 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25%
* v. Level 73 mob: 9.0% / dual-wield: 28%

You can no longer raise your weapon skill above 350, but this also explains why the first 5 points of weapon skill were so valuable, because it got you within 10 points of the bosses Defense skill, and effectively gave you 3% to hit.

Tarquin, what group would you suggest, given the fact that we only have 2 decent rogues, 2 skilled hunters, 4 druids (2 healing, 1 feral, and 1 boomkin) and a max of 2 dps warriors. (that is if they can all come)
Most of the time the only melee we got is the 4 melee in the group mentioned above, and 2 or 3 (tanking) protection warriors.

(Okay I know, our guild might be short on melee dps, we are working on it. We do have more melee than mentioned above, but those are not skillled and geared enough yet for T5 instances at this moment.)

I take your advice if it concerns the mentioned group, but if there is no fury warrior, is grace of air better then?