Roguecraft 101 - Page 78

vyedma · 03/14/08, 11:39 AM

Ideally you'd want put the rogues & warriors in a group together with a shaman, and the feral druids and hunters together with a different shaman. If you only have 1 shaman the rogue/warrior group would get priority.

If you don't have enough to fill two groups the rogues and warriors should get first priority in the group, and the hunters can share with a caster or healer group.

In our raids we sometimes end up with a bastard group with a hunter or two, a feral druid, a spriest, and a mage or lock.

Tarquin · 03/14/08, 11:46 AM

With the four melee mentioned above, I'd put the shaman, rogue, and feral in a group with an OT prot warrior and probably one of the hunters to round it off, and drop Windfury. Just stick that prot warrior on the first kill target for trash pulls or adds during a boss fight - he'll have less survivability, but more threat generation. If your enhance shaman can learn to totem twist, even better; extra DPS for the feral and hunter, and extra avoidance for the prot war.

Oh, and stick the orphan hunter in a shadow priest group if you can.

Sinsei · 03/14/08, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Myrx

Bloodlust doesn't stack anyways as far as I know. What you're seeing is 1 x Bloodlust, and 2 x Unholy Frenzy.

Thats definately just 3 unholy frenzy's. Nobody else in the group has lust icons, or glowing hands, or slightly bigger characters.

On a second note, you see how many potency procs flying around? lol He prolly couldn't spend it fast enough. But yeah that's Aurora on Mal'ganis.

--

BTW I finally had a good Gorefiend attempt this week as combat. If you remember the 1880 WWS as Hemo, I did 2025 as Combat Mace/Sword last night.

I could see getting a little closer to combat dps as hemo, maybe within 3-4%, but potency is a clear winner.

Hanos · 03/14/08, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by patcherke

Tarquin, what group would you suggest, given the fact that we only have 2 decent rogues, 2 skilled hunters, 4 druids (2 healing, 1 feral, and 1 boomkin) and a max of 2 dps warriors. (that is if they can all come)
Most of the time the only melee we got is the 4 melee in the group mentioned above, and 2 or 3 (tanking) protection warriors.

(Okay I know, our guild might be short on melee dps, we are working on it. We do have more melee than mentioned above, but those are not skillled and geared enough yet for T5 instances at this moment.)

I take your advice if it concerns the mentioned group, but if there is no fury warrior, is grace of air better then?

Melee Group:
-Rogue
-Rogue
-DPS Warrior
-DPS Warrior/Feral
-Shaman

Basically the Feral is nice to have unless you have 3 rogues or 2 DPS Warriors, as they are a higher priority. If you only have enough melee for one group, you probably want to stack all of in there, the Feral is the first one you pull out to put with the hunters.

Lookaasheq · 03/14/08, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hanos

There was significant testing done back at the start of TBC, we know for a fact that 28% is the duel wield miss rate. A lot of the early testing by rogues was flawed due to the effect of weapon skill at the time, where most rogues were getting 10 weapon skill from talents that was providing a significant amount of hit.

You have the right idea, just the wrong numbers, 5% isn't the duel wield number for even level mobs, it is the miss rate when using only 1 weapon:
* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 70 character with a 350 Weapon Skill:

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
* v. Level 71 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
* v. Level 72 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25%
* v. Level 73 mob: 9.0% / dual-wield: 28%

You can no longer raise your weapon skill above 350, but this also explains why the first 5 points of weapon skill were so valuable, because it got you within 10 points of the bosses Defense skill, and effectively gave you 3% to hit.

\o/
Thank you very much, was very helpful.

weka · 03/15/08, 12:32 AM

At one point in time, there was a working AEP addon, Jubei's AEP | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse ; I was curious if it would be worth resurrecting this for the modern rogue, or if there is a similar addon that is up-to-date.

JohnLocke · 03/15/08, 1:05 AM

Pawn - Inventory/Item - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More! should do the trick.

koaschten · 03/15/08, 7:37 AM

Originally Posted by JohnLocke

Pawn - Inventory/Item - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More! should do the trick.

Which should be especially useful as if i recall correctly the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet genereates copy&paste code to get the AEP Values from the sheet ingame into pawn.

netslayer · 03/15/08, 1:14 PM

I've got a couple questions, first off ive read these forums for atleast 2 years very good job on all the theorycrafting.
My issue is lately ive noticed on wws reports im having my special attacks missing my hitcap for specials is definately above the cap around 250 with precision. it seems like 1 or 2 times I go to apply my rupture its missing which hasnt happened til lately. here is a link to my armory as well hope at the time it has my raid gear equipped feel free to critique all you want lol. The World of Warcraft Armory some of my choices made are due to none dropped items ect they will be pretty apparent. thank you.

Zavior · 03/15/08, 1:17 PM

WWS shows dodges in the 'misses' section as well if my memory serves. Hit wont lower your attack's chance to get dodged, expertise will. Surprise attacks will make your finishers undodgeable, but it doesn't help for other specials.

netslayer · 03/15/08, 1:21 PM

thats what I figured just wanted to make sure its the dodges then affecting my sinisters strikes. since ive got the belt of 100 deaths ive noticed a difference in it not happening as often.

saedo · 03/15/08, 1:22 PM

On WWS, you have to click on the attack to get a drop down menu which gives you details on what was dodged, missed, parried, blocked, etc. Click along the line, not the name of the attack itself, which would only bring you to one of the abilities page.

netslayer · 03/15/08, 4:01 PM

yup ive got it now I didnt realize wws would add the parry and dodge to the miss % was a little worried. but my misses from my specials are alot more then the other 2 rogues still unless due to haste procs im swinging more so my misses are more.

saedo · 03/15/08, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by netslayer

yup ive got it now I didnt realize wws would add the parry and dodge to the miss % was a little worried. but my misses from my specials are alot more then the other 2 rogues still unless due to haste procs im swinging more so my misses are more.

Well, compare the miss % instead of actual misses. But it could all just be RNG luck.

Spoonrogue · 03/15/08, 10:13 PM

All very good information. Thank you so much!

Stinkiee · 03/16/08, 1:51 PM

After reading through all the pages in this thread i found a interesting discussing about mace+sword spec.

I decided to test it out myself and used the rogue dps spread sheet and had some pretty interesting results.

Using the spec 16/45/0 with mace+sword spec i actualy came out with 25 more dps (1,84%) than with the classic combat swords, as a human rogue(+5 expertise).

I used my own gear and vengeful weps. Buffed stats according to the spread sheet was:
3226 AP
3392 armor pen
35.9% crit
20.73% hit

Anybody got some thoughts at this, or can tell me what i did wrong if i did anything wrong.

Sorry if it has already been discussed and i havnt seen it(was a bit sleepy at some points while reading the thread).

• Vulajin · 03/16/08, 1:58 PM

So, just as a general rule, I would suggest that if the DPS Spreadsheet gives you results that differ greatly from what I've posted in this thread or what you get from using the Gear Spreadsheet, the answer is either:

1) You have used the DPS Spreadsheet incorrectly.

OR

2) The DPS Spreadsheet is wrong.

I would advise cross-checking all results against the Gear Spreadsheet if you're in doubt. Unless you're looking at something that we've never even talked about before, it's not likely that you're discovering some new and exciting twist to a problem we've already solved.

Sorry to be harsh, but seeing the sheer number of cases in which the DPS Spreadsheet is just plain wrong these days really worries me, given how many people still use it as their primary DPS/gearing tool.

Stinkiee · 03/16/08, 2:44 PM

Well okay, as u said i prolly havnt discovered something new, but the main point of my post is the "bug" with humans. When you got both a sword and a mace you get 10 expertise, its not a very old change so could be something you havn't discussed. But the reason is probaly one of the two you pointed out.

Anyway thanks for the fast reply.

• Vulajin · 03/16/08, 2:48 PM

Originally Posted by Stinkiee

When you got both a sword and a mace you get 10 expertise, its not a very old change so could be something you havn't discussed.

That's actually a display bug.

Stinkiee · 03/16/08, 2:56 PM

Ahh that's probaly the reason nobody discussed it before:P Thanks for pointing that out.

netslayer · 03/16/08, 5:48 PM

when switching from bloodelf to troll on the dps spreadsheet its showing blood elf as a .57 dps upgrade. is there a reason for this? i know its minor but im just wondering.

• Vulajin · 03/16/08, 5:50 PM

Arcane Torrent provides you 30 extra energy per 2 minutes (~0.25 per second, average) if you're fighting something with mana. Berserking is weak by comparison.

lordshitzu · 03/16/08, 5:59 PM

I have a question about patch 2.4, I've been looking over these and the WoW forums and can't find any mention of this, maybe I'm searching for the wrong terms.

The notes say:
Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.

Isn't Heroism/Bloodlust a % based haste spell? Doesn't this mean that heroism will become basically useless to rogues, since we should have SnD/Blade Flurry up at all times? Or will ONE non-self spell still stack with any self-buffs?

sambjo · 03/16/08, 6:07 PM

Originally Posted by lordshitzu

Isn't Heroism/Bloodlust a % based haste spell? Doesn't this mean that heroism will become basically useless to rogues, since we should have SnD/Blade Flurry up at all times? Or will ONE non-self spell still stack with any self-buffs?

The change only means that Power Infusion won't stack with Bloodlust/Heroism. Rogues are unaffected.

Originally Posted by Drysc

The following changes have been made for a future PTR update:

* Bloodlust/Heroism will, again, stack with Icy Veins.
* Bloodlust/Heroism will not stack with Power Infusion, however.

The new rule being used to govern these changes is “non-self % based haste spells will not stack with each other”.

koaschten · 03/16/08, 6:12 PM

You answered your question yourself by quoting the notes... NON-SELFBUFFED stuff won't stack.