Roguecraft 101 - Page 8

• Vulajin · 10/18/07, 12:22 PM

I believe that, over the next day or two, I'll begin updating the first post with some preliminary 2.3 information. So far what we have is a pretty good chunk (if not all) of the new items that will be available, a new weapon enchant on which I feel like I need more data before I can reach any conclusions, and of course, the expertise change, for which we're sort of relying on the assumption that Blizzard isn't changing the base miss rate against a raid boss. If they're not, the 363 hit cap holds. Otherwise, who knows.

Everything will go in a separate section near the top, since it's what people seem to want to know about lately, and none of it is considered final yet. As always, please double check anything I post for accuracy.

Regarding the 5% DPS difference with daggers: I caution everyone not to get too caught up in numbers like that. Such a number is, by necessity, an approximation. Swords, daggers, fists, and maces all scale slightly differently with gear; as a result, the difference will vary slightly. 5% difference assumes a particular level of gear (I believe I did that comparison using the same assumed T4 level of gear I used for the stat weights) that certainly may not be true for everyone. That's why I always stress double-checking any "rule" given here with the spreadsheets.

roq · 10/18/07, 12:31 PM

Originally Posted by Talda

I have ever since been on Combat Daggers until the start of S2, I changed to Maces for more Arena viabilty then. On raids without t4, having no t5 4 bonus yet, the cycle 3s/5r worked for me fine there.
Now I am back to daggers again, still searching for the perfect cycle, and I have to confess that 5s/5r never works out for me, after 5s building up cps again I have about ~7 to 8s left until snd runs out, so it probably is about 5s/2r at max for me, even having t5 4bonus now.
anyone any ideas or experiences?

Run 1s/3r. It works fine as long as you have the 2 piece t4.

Vulajin, as for your combat Daggers section about SnD. It looks fine. I don't see anything wrong with it. Currently i am a huge supporter of the 1s/3r cycle as you are suggesting, and used to run 3s/5s/5r before i had the set bonus.

Autolycus · 10/18/07, 1:09 PM

In Reguards to the attack cycle, I find myself using shiv quite often as opposed to sinister strike when i notice the timer on my deadly poison stack getting low, so i can keep it at 5 poisons. I also use shiv at the beginning of the fight to get my SnD up quicker. Is this acceptable practice to switch this in and out of the attack cycle like I am, or should i just be sticking solely with sinister strike?

saedo · 10/18/07, 1:24 PM

I'd like to suggest a section on Rupture.

It may be a no brainer to use it for some of us, but I know some rogues that know little about DPE, assumes Evis is better cause they can see 3K crits once in a while, and thinks Evis scales better.

Kellhus · 10/18/07, 1:45 PM

Originally Posted by mmaker

Well if you play 10 min, 50 more dps is 30k damage. And 30k in 10 min is not much imo

The reason you should pick dagger over sword even if swords has higher dps is simple because its 10 times more fun, atleast for me. The only thing i wanted to say was that people seems to choice swords over other speccs because of the "awesome" dps instead of asking themself what
they think is fun. If nihilum had dagger rogues when they took illidan world first, its good enough dps for me atleast

In a rogue theorycraft thread, the entire idea is maximizing your damage by understanding the supporting math. Choosing not to for fun is fine, knock yourself out. But it does sort of defeat the purpose of a thread centered on, as stated above, maximizing your damage.

For any rogue who takes the current spreadsheets as valid, daggers does less damage then swords - end of story. This doesn't say daggers doesn't do "enough" damage, however. It simply says swords does more, by however small/large a margin your spec/gear/playstyle creates.

and the 5% thing wasn't something I was taking as gospel -- I responded to a post that used it, and I was just making my point referencing it.

• Vulajin · 10/18/07, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Autolycus

In Reguards to the attack cycle, I find myself using shiv quite often as opposed to sinister strike when i notice the timer on my deadly poison stack getting low, so i can keep it at 5 poisons. I also use shiv at the beginning of the fight to get my SnD up quicker. Is this acceptable practice to switch this in and out of the attack cycle like I am, or should i just be sticking solely with sinister strike?

Personally, I never Shiv to save DP stacks, but I've never actually done any math to support my practice. So here comes some math:

Looking at my handy spreadsheet here, I can see that over any given span of 12 seconds, I have roughly a 4% chance not to proc DP. So let's assume that means I have a 4% chance to need to Shiv every 12 seconds. Let's completely ignore any other ramifications with respect to my cycle. This means that on average, I'll Shiv once every 300 seconds.

Using my current gear, [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade], my SS damage is roughly 1184, while my Shiv damage is roughly 426. So let's say I'm trading exactly one Sinister Strike for one Shiv every 300 seconds to keep DP up 100% of the time. That's 758 damage given up every 300 seconds.

Now, with my current gear assuming never Shivving, DP deals about 72 DPS. If I increase my DP uptime to exactly 100%, the DPS increases by 3.36. Over 300 seconds, that's an increase of roughly 1007 damage. This assumes 3/5 Vile Poisons. With 0/5 Vile Poisons, it's 899 damage.

So, if you only Shiv in the case where DP is in imminent danger of falling off, then you will gain approximately 0.5-1 DPS. In my opinion, this isn't even remotely worth the kind of micromanagement it would take to make sure you're only Shivving when you aren't going to get a proc and that you always have the GCD to Shiv at that last possible second to refresh the stack.

In other words, never Shiv. Ever. If you need to get SnD up quickly at the start of the fight, use a 1-2 CP SnD before starting your normal cycle. Don't Shiv for it. The speedier gain in CP is nowhere near worth the loss of DPS.

Originally Posted by saedo

I'd like to suggest a section on Rupture.

It may be a no brainer to use it for some of us, but I know some rogues that know little about DPE, assumes Evis is better cause they can see 3K crits once in a while, and thinks Evis scales better.

Perhaps I'll throw in a blurb at the start of the CP cycle section.

Fands · 10/18/07, 2:43 PM

First, I'd like to say thanks for the great post on maximizing DPS, anytime a new rogue asks I send them here.
I have a question about the change to WF a while back. For me at least (ToA and Arena2 OH, 297 hit) the dps spreadsheet shows that GoA in combination with 2 poisons is actually higher dps (1.5 dps) than WF + poison raid buffed. It also shows there is almost no difference (0.05) between what poison goes on the MH and OH. Are both of these now generally the case? I'm curious as I usually pick my melee group make up and its generally 1 enh shammy, 2-4 rogues, feral druid or dps warrior. Should I stick with GoA regardless of group make up?

• Vulajin · 10/18/07, 2:49 PM

Originally Posted by Fands

First, I'd like to say thanks for the great post on maximizing DPS, anytime a new rogue asks I send them here.
I have a question about the change to WF a while back. For me at least (ToA and Arena2 OH, 297 hit) the dps spreadsheet shows that GoA in combination with 2 poisons is actually higher dps (1.5 dps) than WF + poison raid buffed. It also shows there is almost no difference (0.05) between what poison goes on the MH and OH. Are both of these now generally the case? I'm curious as I usually pick my melee group make up and its generally 1 enh shammy, 2-4 rogues, feral druid or dps warrior. Should I stick with GoA regardless of group make up?

Windfury is definitely still better for you, but definitely by a much smaller margin than it used to be. My spreadsheet gives me about a 12 DPS loss switching from WF to GoA+IP. Rule of thumb: if there's a warrior in that group at all, you should have your shaman dropping WF. You also want that warrior in the group because Battle Shout is a gigantic DPS increase, particularly if talented. The feral druid is probably the most dispensable member of the group, so if you need to choose, go with enhance shaman + rogues + fury warrior and have the shaman drop WF. If the group doesn't have a fury warrior (e.g. enhance shaman + feral druid + 3 rogues), then dropping GoA might be better for the group overall.

path411 · 10/18/07, 2:51 PM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

On raid buffs: the ideal party for a rogue is typically feral druid + fury warrior + enhance shaman + rogue + rogue. The biggest DPS buffs for a combat build are Battle Shout (5/5 improved), Unleashed Rage, Blessing of Might (5/5 improved), Grace of Air/Windfury (see further below), Leader of the Pack, in that order. If your raid is short on paladins, Salvation > Might > Kings. If your raid doesn't have an enhancement shaman, a resto shaman in the group dropping totems will do just fine (Unleashed Rage is the big difference, Enhancing Totems and Improved Weapon Totems have very little impact).

I would ask why is Salvation rated higher then Might and Kings. Maybe on bosses where an aggro wipe is present in a form of phase or multiple mobs, but on a single target boss I never have problem with threat due to simply Vanishing around 70-80% and then again around 20-30%

Originally Posted by Vulajin

On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll generally get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with the shaman in your group. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem is probably preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom.

I have always shown more DPS from practice and the spreadsheet from DP on MH and IP OH if no Windfury is present. Am I simply missing something again?

Keyne · 10/18/07, 2:53 PM

Originally Posted by Autolycus

In Reguards to the attack cycle, I find myself using shiv quite often as opposed to sinister strike when i notice the timer on my deadly poison stack getting low, so i can keep it at 5 poisons. I also use shiv at the beginning of the fight to get my SnD up quicker. Is this acceptable practice to switch this in and out of the attack cycle like I am, or should i just be sticking solely with sinister strike?

I can see using Shiv to reapply DP if it prevents the stack from falling off, as DP falling off is a Very Bad Thing. However, I don't see how Shiv'ing at the start of combat gets SnD off any 'faster'. As I understand it*, SS and Shiv invoke the same GCD, and both award one CP with which to get SND up, which I understand are the only factors that affect how fast SnD can be used. If Shiv and SS are equal in this regard (getting SnD up), you should use whichever skill is higher DPS (or DPE or whatever).

* My conclusion here admittedly is not ironclad, as I am not an expert rogue. (I'm still leveling her, and thus still learning the ins and outs of roguery.) My conclusions, like any good conclusion, is based off assumptions. If my assumptions are valid, then my conclusion is valid (read as: use SS, not Shiv at the start). If I am somehow misinformed on my assumptions, please let me know, as I enjoy learning...

Mideci · 10/18/07, 3:05 PM

"I can see using Shiv to reapply DP if it prevents the stack from falling off, as DP falling off is a Very Bad Thing"

No it really isn't so terrible. It doesn't happen often and when it does it'll be back soon. All the models assume that deadly poison will do a certain amount of dps based on how often it's applied and its damage value.

You don't need to break the cycle to reapply DP as was demonstrated above (it might provide some infinitesimal dps boost but for most of us at the cost of our rhythm).

As for shiv-ing early, shiv requires a lot less energy than SS does. So if you are obsesses about getting SnD up -- and as the fight goes this is the thing you *must* have up at all times -- then you can shiv your way to some combo pts and SnD with more time on the counter faster than you can do the same with SS. I suppose it depends on your cycle and how you many CP is normal for you before you SnD. If it's a higher number, this might make sense with the proviso that it's still out of rhythm: First pass, 4x shiv, SnD, start real cycle vs. First pass, <normal SS, SnD, start real cycle.

• Vulajin · 10/18/07, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by path411

I would ask why is Salvation rated higher then Might and Kings. Maybe on bosses where an aggro wipe is present in a form of phase or multiple mobs, but on a single target boss I never have problem with threat due to simply Vanishing around 70-80% and then again around 20-30%

Do you have Salvation on you when doing that?

Salvation is obviously not quantifiable, but it has huge intangible value. On Hydross, Leotheras, Lurker, and Al'ar, at the very least, Salvation has great benefit due to threat wipes or having to DPS adds quickly without pulling aggro on them. Additionally, on Morogrim and Void Reaver, it's easily possible to have threat issues as your gear scales up (since tank threat scales slower than DPS). On Vashj, I would consider Vanishing for threat a liability, since you never know when you may need it on phase 3 to escape being rooted in toxic spores.

Originally Posted by path411

I have always shown more DPS from practice and the spreadsheet from DP on MH and IP OH if no Windfury is present. Am I simply missing something again?

Different spreadsheets give different results. However, both the gear spreadsheet and my personal spreadsheet put IP/DP above DP/IP.

• Aldriana · 10/18/07, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by path411

I would ask why is Salvation rated higher then Might and Kings. Maybe on bosses where an aggro wipe is present in a form of phase or multiple mobs, but on a single target boss I never have problem with threat due to simply Vanishing around 70-80% and then again around 20-30%

Perhaps your tanks are better than the ones I've dealt with, but having played with about 5 different tanks in two different guilds, in most cases I'm generating 90% (or more) of the aggro of the tank even with salvation on. Without salvation, then, I'd be generating something like 125% of his aggro, and thereby would need to spend a lot of time holding back to avoid pulling aggro, even with vanish. Consider: it's 5 minutes between vanishes. If one is dealing 125% of the aggro of the tank, it takes the tank 6.25 minutes to generate this much aggro. Hence, your first vanish would need to occur 75 seconds into the fight to avoid pulling aggro before the 2nd vanish. Thus, one would need to spend the first 75 seconds of the fight dealing less than 80% of your damage potential, which is just a huge waste of damage. Also, there's more potential for accidentally pulling aggro, which is usual fatal and thus an even larger loss of DPS.

I'm not going to say that there aren't combinations of really good tanks and undergeared rogues that render salvation unnecessary; but I do think the general rule that salvation is the most important rogue buff is correct.

path411 · 10/18/07, 3:35 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Perhaps your tanks are better than the ones I've dealt with, but having played with about 5 different tanks in two different guilds, in most cases I'm generating 90% (or more) of the aggro of the tank even with salvation on. Without salvation, then, I'd be generating something like 125% of his aggro, and thereby would need to spend a lot of time holding back to avoid pulling aggro, even with vanish. Consider: it's 5 minutes between vanishes. If one is dealing 125% of the aggro of the tank, it takes the tank 6.25 minutes to generate this much aggro. Hence, your first vanish would need to occur 75 seconds into the fight to avoid pulling aggro before the 2nd vanish. Thus, one would need to spend the first 75 seconds of the fight dealing less than 80% of your damage potential, which is just a huge waste of damage. Also, there's more potential for accidentally pulling aggro, which is usual fatal and thus an even larger loss of DPS.

I'm not going to say that there aren't combinations of really good tanks and undergeared rogues that render salvation unnecessary; but I do think the general rule that salvation is the most important rogue buff is correct.

Maybe I wait too long to start DPS, but I normally I can blow AR/BF right around 85-90%, vanish after and be good on threat. (I am mainly basing this off of Gruul since that's the furthest we have down so far =/)

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Do you have Salvation on you when doing that?

Salvation is obviously not quantifiable, but it has huge intangible value. On Hydross, Leotheras, Lurker, and Al'ar, at the very least, Salvation has great benefit due to threat wipes or having to DPS adds quickly without pulling aggro on them. Additionally, on Morogrim and Void Reaver, it's easily possible to have threat issues as your gear scales up (since tank threat scales slower than DPS). On Vashj, I would consider Vanishing for threat a liability, since you never know when you may need it on phase 3 to escape being rooted in toxic spores.

We are on a shortage of Paladins and normally rogues just get might/kings.
Yeah, I can see salv very useful in all of those fights with adds/threat wipes. (We just did our first attempts on Lootreaver this week and once we get it down I'll definitely be needing salv )

I'm hoping that I've been doing fine from having a tank that can threat well instead of a lack in my part, haha.

• Aldriana · 10/18/07, 3:49 PM

Well, okay, on Gruul, I can see not needing salv; your DPS is interrupted enough that it's hard to keep good, tight cycles up. Also, it has been my impression that rogue DPS scales faster than tank threat, so what's true in T4 may not be true in T5 and T6. On uninterrupted sustained fights like Tidewalker and Gorefiend, I have found salvation to be essential.