Cheers for clearing that up for me =), hope to replace the Abacus with a Warp-Spring Coil soon if Void Reaver would hurry up and drop another one after close to 3 months+ of downing him every week ><.

I wonder, has anyone researched or modeled effects of crit over hit for Mutilate builds?
Seeing how Vashj has been very uncooperative in regards of the belt I was starting to consider Don Alejandro's over my current Belt of Deep Shadows.
Common sense tells me that Deep Shadows is superior (dps wise), but I began wondering if crit might be better for Mutilate due to it's "2" attack nature, or where the cut-off point would be?

From what I understand Mutilate is a two-roll (or is it rather one+two roll system?)
First to check if the attack lands and two "secondary" rolls to check if the attacks are either crits or hits.

Assuming that the only "procs" are Mongoose (WSC+Lethality in my case. DST or MoB would alter the results somewhat I assume) would mean that hit isn't that valued.
So I'm throwing it out here as a idea.



As for the overall mutilate aspect. I'd have to disagree. The suggested spec assumes the usage of dual DP that is highly unlikely as WF is much better (at least with a warrior in the group). Even in case of GoA I would use IP over dual deadly.
I personally use: this build.
Even without Imp. Poisons I rarely find DP falling off and Fleet Footed allows Dexterity or Surefooted enchant.
As I mentioned above, for mutilate hit isn't as important so I prefer Crimson Spinels over Pyrestone/Lionseye where possible.

As far as my understanding goes, first it is determined wether Mutilate hits at all, so 1 roll for dodge, parry (in dead zone or lag situations) and miss. This roll counts for both main hand and off hand. You won't see any missed main hand Mutilate but a landed off hand Mutilate (however, you will see a main hand mutilate hit and no off hand Mutilate at all if the target is already dead after the main hand hit).
Then for each hand there is another roll to determine wether it's a hit or a crit.

This is exactly what I am doing right now but being a little slack about SnD gaps that do creep in. Erring on the side of caution is what I will do from now on.

I have an additional question about the 4 set T4 bonus, 15% chance of being awarded a combo point when a Finisher is used.

I need to furnish proof about this with a combat log ofc but I got the impression I was sometimes getting 2 CPs awarded when using a finisher, 1 from Ruthlessness and 1 from somewhere else (presumably T4). I have no other talents or items which could account for this.

Now I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that the T4 bonus would stack with Ruthlessness but if I wasn't suffering hallucinations then this is not the case.
Is this in fact how it works, the 4 set T4 bonus I mean?

Well say you get airbursted on archimonde with 4cp, usually i then ss-->rup. Do you mean a 4pt snd there would be better?

I would just like to hear more opinions on this. The last I checked on shadowpanther.net, this item is ranked pretty high as a good PVE helm, probably comparable or better then X-11 engineering crafted helm or Deathmantle helm. I have access to Epic gems and Im planning to socket this with 2 Glinting Pyrestones and 1 Rigid Lionseye. Im currently using the X-11 engineering crafted goggles with RED. Am I making a good choice?

Always be careful with the word "stacking," it can mean a lot of different things in a lot of different contexts. In the case of T4 4pc, it has its own chance to proc, independent of Ruthlessness, which means that you can in fact end up with 2 CP from a finisher. The chance of getting 2 CP is equal to 60% * 15% = 9%. The chance of getting 1 CP is equal to 60% * 85% + 40% * 15% = 57%. The chance of getting 0 CP is equal to 40% * 85% = 34%.

If you average out the number of CP gained on a finisher when you have both Ruthlessness and T4 4pc, it comes out to 0.75.

Well, using the weighting system given in the first post and assuming Hyjal gems, Grimgin is worth 40 * 2.2 + 24 * 2.3 + 82 + 23 * 3 = 294.2 (+8 if you socket for the bonus). Netherblade Facemask is worth 28 * 2.2 + 14 * 2.3 + 78 + 23 = 194.8 (+8.8 if you socket for the bonus). So the question is how high you rate Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. Aldriana's sheet puts it at roughly 93.66 AP, meaning that Netherblade is right on par with Grimgrin. This would make Grimgrin inferior to Deathblow and Deathmantle.

Thanks for checking my facts. Next time I update the first post, I'll fix that.

Originally posted by Vulajin
Well, using the weighting system given in the first post and assuming Hyjal gems, Grimgin is worth 40 * 2.2 + 24 * 2.3 + 82 + 23 * 3 = 294.2 (+8 if you socket for the bonus). Netherblade Facemask is worth 28 * 2.2 + 14 * 2.3 + 78 + 23 = 194.8 (+8.8 if you socket for the bonus). So the question is how high you rate Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. Aldriana's sheet puts it at roughly 93.66 AP, meaning that Netherblade is right on par with Grimgrin. This would make Grimgrin inferior to Deathblow and Deathmantle.

I am in a dilemma on this decision because although RED is hard to give up on, the fact that I have to socket 2 blue gems to fulfill its requirement makes me feel as though it cancels out its advantage. Losing 10 hit for 16 stam hurts.

Again, using Aldriana's weighting, you're looking at a meta gem that grants over 90 AP, versus losing 10 hit (which would be about 23 AP worth). RED is huge, make no mistake. Additionally, you can use your two blue gems to activate socket bonuses that you wouldn't otherwise have gotten, lessening the impact of the 10 hit loss.

For what it's worth, Shadowpanther uses a fairly crude raiding system that is a fine "first pass" but not a mathematically correct dps tool. The Rogue Gear and Rogue DPS Spreadsheets take out the opinion quotient and actually measure the worth of a meta-socketed RED or hit or whatnot. They thus gain a level of accuracy the shadowpanther tables don't have.

Thanks for the valuable input guys. Really appreciate it!!

Dont think Sealfate can keep up with Combat Potency toe to toe. Cold blood aint that much substained damage either. QR is nice and all but I would still go full combat instead.

Vulajin,

I would like to understand a little be more on the mechanics of expertise. I've been told that dpsing from behind a raid boss, that you can get dodged and thus the significance of this stat. But, I can't really recall if I have in fact seen a dodge from dpsing behind a target, so I'd like to verify the validity of that statement. Given, that if you cannot be dodged from behind the target this would infer that you are at 0% dodge, and x% miss depending only on your hit rating. Would that make expertise be more meaningful only in situations where you may be moving all around your target and dpsing from the front a good amount of the time? While I'm sure there is already some preliminary number crunching going on the ptr regarding this change, is there an AP equivalency for it at this point? How can I quantify using hit vs. expertise when stat weighing gear in this case? Might I wear a set of gear that includes some expertise up to the cap for a fight that moves around alot and only gear that favors hit when doing simple tank and spank?

Also, in regards to armor reduction or penatration, implicitly, you cannot reduce a targets armor mitigation below 0%, so is there a magic number on how much you should keep in mind if you were to use this stat to your advantage?

Thank you in advance, and I appologize if these questions sound ignorant.

Both white and yellow attacks can be dodged by bosses when you attack from behind.
There are no parries or blocks when attacking from behind.
Attacks from the front can be parried, this resets boss swingtimer increasing dps on tank.

I'm sure you have also experienced doing a rupture on a boss yet you still have all your combopoints. Then you do 1-2 more ss before noticing it, fucking up the cycle and wasting cps and so on... Dodge of DOOM!

Armorlevels varies, so theres not ONE magical number of armorpenetration that acts as a CAP. Believe theres a thread on boss armorvalues, there you can subtract your common armordebuffs on a target, then subtract whatever armorpenetration you have on your gear and youll see if you go below 0.

Combat rogues shouldn't be worried about the rupture being dodged. Surprise Attacks!

Looking at this, and after spending a decent amount of time using the above formulas, I've grown to question them. I know a lot of the AtkEP formulas and AEP formulas vary, but for these, is your "1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP" factor in Combat Potency? Also, is "1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP" derived from using RED?


Few Questions for the crowd:
I've grown very accustomed to constantly viewing this thread for updates. One thing that you haven't touched on is Poisons. I know that DP is approx 45 DPS when fully applied. I've heard that IP is best for your MH, assuming you do not have a Shaman in your group to give WF. Has anyone really done the math on Sharpening Stones vs IP for MH. I'm sure its been done, but can't seem to locate exact numbers anywhere (I do realize that the SS should vary depending on gear, AP, RED, and other factors, vs IP which will/should be constant).

I think that the weightings are very helpful to most raiding rogues b/c your target audience is typically going to be kara geared and spec'd combat. Before reading this post I was stuck on simply obtaining gear that would only help me reach the hit cap, passing on gear that was potentially a huge upgrade to me. After taking advice from this post and using this weighting system, I have found a significant upgrade to my own performance in raids and really appreciate what you have done. As long as ppl understand that these findings are based upon certain assumptions, there really shouldn't be any confusion here. Thanks for your hard work.

I suggest just putting in a note in the original post stating that they were derived from Aldriana's spreadsheet and the spec you used.

Is this sufficient (note: it was already there, but apparently people keep overlooking it, so maybe more is needed)?

I noticed it there, but to me it didn't give enough detail. I assumed it was combat and took factors of a full combat build including combat potency, but I was more interested in the crit number. I have been using 1.55 instead of 1.6 because I don't have a RED (using Maelific), which I believe is correct without RED (trying to backtrack your math).

I love this thread and the boards here. I was daunted by the prospect of a "DPS Spreadsheet" but it's awesome. With all that out of the way...

I'm wondering if a certain section could be added (if it's needed, however brief) of which builds aim for which stats.

I know we all want high AP, Hit, and Crit to a degree, but Mutilate (for example) would probably put more emphasis on crit than a different stat. I'm combat daggers for a change of pace from maces, and trying to figure out how much a backstab is affected by each stat in general... we have so much crit built into our backstabs through talents; would I be off the mark to aim for AP gear in that sense? My mace (Dragonmaw) procced haste, and I went a little overboard stacking other haste items (SSD, Crystalweave Cape), just because i loved seeing that MH speed pushed further and further down (SnD, Blade Flurry, Mongoose, Dragonmaw, Abacus, etc).

A simple paragraph on good ratios to aim for for vaying builds would be the only thing I can think that's missing from the thread.

<3

I don't believe the weighings actually change as much as many think. People forget that one of the main reasons hit rating is better than crit rating is that it takes 10*82/52 for 1% hit and 14*82/52 for 1% crit. This makes hit seeded 1.4 times better than crit before you take into account Combat Potency or anything else. If you look at the weighings: 1.6 * 1.4 = 2.24 which is very close to the 2.3 factor of hit rating.

So, a mutilate build without Combat Potency may tip the scales a little, but I'd venture to guess the weighing won't change more than say 0.2 one way or another, especially since all rogue builds rely on a significant portion of white damage. The same would apply to haste which even without Combat Potency, has a significant effect on one's white damage (where its giving its greatest benefit).