I feel kinda dumb after the epiphany I just had; that expertise is worth more after you reach the hit cap for specials because specials can still be dodged at the same amount. Therefore, hit rating goes down, and expertise remains the same. Previously, I did not understand why this was so, since expertise converted at an equal rate to hit.
However, I still don't understand why haste is worth less. I would appreciate an explanation as to why this is.
I feel kinda dumb after the epiphany I just had; that expertise is worth more after you reach the hit cap for specials because specials can still be dodged at the same amount. Therefore, hit rating goes down, and expertise remains the same. Previously, I did not understand why this was so, since expertise converted at an equal rate to hit.
However, I still don't understand why haste is worth less. I would appreciate an explanation as to why this is.
Expertise also lowers the chance for extraneous Parries in addition to the Dodge reduction. Many fights you will encounter such parries. One fight for example is Teron Gorefiend. Any boss that turns to cast on someone opens a window to get parries.
As I've noted before in this thread, especially on Teron (who requires 0 tank movement, and has no frontal cone/cleave abilities), it is relatively easy to position him such that your melee dps are impacted minimally by it.
Basically have him face 90 degrees from the approach (i.e. he's looking at the raid before he's aggro'd, have him facing 90 degrees left or RIGHT based off that initial positioning), and have the melee dps stand at 4 or 8 o'clock (based on which way he's facing). This means he's either facing the tank, or most of the time when he turns to face the raid and cast, he's still not parrying melee. You will still get a few parries when he turns to incinerate/shadow the melee, but that's generally 20% of the raid or so, which is a pretty big improvement.
Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.
However, I still don't understand why haste is worth less. I would appreciate an explanation as to why this is.
Well, the initial answer I might give is: why *shouldn't* it give less? It's a fundamentally different mechanic, what reason is there to expect that a totally different mechanic is going to have the same value?
But, lets take a minute to drill down into specifics. Consider the following hypothetical experiment: lets say I have a 90% hit rate, and no haste rating. I make 1000 attacks. Of these, I generate 900 hits.
If I increase my hit rating by 1% - to 91% - I generate .91 * 1000 = 910 hits.
If I gain 1% passive haste, I now launch 1010 attacks in the same amount of time; thus, I generate 1010 * .9 = 909 hits.
Hence, 1% haste and 1% hit generate different numbers of attacks, depending on your current value of both stats; in particular, the value of haste scales with hit, and the value of hit scales with haste; but neither scales with itself. Thus, the more haste you have, the more hit is worth; the more hit you have, the more haste is worth. However, since your hit chance will never excede 1, nor will your haste multiplier go under 1, this scaling will always cause hit to be more valuable than haste in equal quantity.
Also, haste does not increase the number of PPM procs you get; it does not increase the uptime of any Mongoose, Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc. procs you may have. Hit, on the other hand, does. This is a 2nd major advantage for hit.
There's also any number of second-order effects that may come into play, not all of which are totally understood. These may or may not favor hit or haste.
In the end: they're two different stats that both increase white damage, but do so in different ways; asking why they don't have the same value is like asking why AP and ArPen don't scale equally, because they both increase the damage of each attack. The mechanics are different, so the values can be as well - it's really just that simple.
If I'm reading that correctly, Hydross would thus still be rupture-immune? The only 25-man bosses that appear to be explicitly covered by that are Void Reaver and Doomwalker, though it might effect Supremus as well. Either way, it doesn't seem to me to be a significant enough change in the value of 2/5 T5 that I would expect a change to it.
Hydross will be immune to poisons in nature phase but not in frost phase. Supremus will not be immune to poisons at all it seems. Bleed is different to poisons, so it does nothing to rupture.
"non-corporeal" means ghosts and electric-clouds etc.? It wouldn't affect VR then.
To add to DMM's data, but on a slightly different route.. I "finished" calculating my way through several hundred WWS reports.
I took data from Bloodboil (only non-Fel-Rage to help curb some luck streaks), Najentus, Mother Sharahz, Teron, Anetheron and Archimonde. I used data from all 4 rogues that have raided for my guild in the last ~7 months. While I didn't use a precise formula, anyone who "did bad dps" was excluded. None of the rogues in my guild sucked, so if their dps wasn't in the top 7 or 8 overall, its likely due to death or ghosting or excessive air burst or whatever - small sample data sizes. Note, I generally only took the 5-10 SLOWEST kills my guild has recorded. We're tanking 6 minute Terons, 9 minute Bloodboils, 7 minute Najentus', etc. This was to increase the sample size therefore reducing the margin of error.
I recorded Average Normal hit, Average Glance, # of Hits, # of Crits, # of Glances, # of Misses (the WWS one which includes parry / dodge). I then calculated, per fight, the average % dmg which glances did. This produced roughly ~125 "glancing reduction percent" numbers (one per parse per rogue). I averaged all 125 together. Next I calculated the chance to glance via # of Glance / Total # of attacks. This was done by summing hits, crits, etc up first. So, in the end:
72k attacks, 24.08% chance to glance (24% I would assume) with .. roughly 24.5 to 25% dmg reduction. If someone whos name I recognize wants to look at the excel file, I can provide it via PM request. I'll probably toss you my guild WWS link as well - I listed report date, boss and rogue name on each line.
I'll attempt to help out this weekend similar stuff to what DMM is working on - a more systematic approach to finding exact glance reduction %. Obviously getting an entire range for a given AP will provide a much more exact answer as opposed to an average which includes various AP's, mixing of MH and OH data, etc.
On a side note.. what was your AP, DMM? Could figure out what your theoretical dmg range was on those attacks (after getting armor from kicks :S) was to cut back on some of the rounding issues and "oddities" like the 79.6% reduction which likely was just a low roll on something that was normally rounded up a bit. Were you seeming numbers over the whole range of glancing (from 80% to 90%) or just 80 and 90%? From your wording I am assuming the whole range.. wow thats a lot of random rolls being calculated server-side.
Well AP is 1629. Armor penetration comes to 644. I also have 2 ranks in Murder and they are murderable. The 79.6 is an extreme is in it could have been as low as 79.6% is the roll was at the high end of the scale. But if the roll were at the low end, it's within the 80% window. Yes, the glances cover the whole range. It's too bad there are no 2-2 damage weapons, it would be a lot easier for testing.
A 2-2 weapon would certainly make life easier, but I think if we can gather enough data with a 2-4 speed weapon, we can probably crunch the numbers and make this work. I'm not sure if the 75 you already have will be enough, but it might be; we simply need to look at the statistical distribution of attacks across allowed values. Could you post either a) your raw data or b) the number of attacks you landed that did each amount of damage, for both glancing and regular? Thanks.
Lately I've been testing something for improving my special attack damage, although this might be obvious and something you do every raid. It all started with a jaw-dropping 3.8k-ish sinister strike during a boss encounter followed by alot lesser ones. I do realize this is purely anecdotal but it's the mechanics I want to discuss.
Please note that this sinister strike wasn't during some buff similar to Fel Rage or on a caster-like boss, nor did I have any type of world buff, Darkmoon Faire buff or anything the like. We didn't even have a warrior with Solarian trinket equipped. Although this was a demon in Mt Hyjal and I do have 2/2 glaives I didn't have elixir of demonslaying. We didn't have any special buffs for melee outside of the regular ones. No hemo-rogue, no rogue with Imp EA sacrificing damage with a feral druid for maintank (which is a fun thing really), nothing the like. No Gift of Arthas. Just a regular raid with 5x Sunder and CoR, though I do believe this had to be one of the few raids we bring a blood frenzy-specced warrior.
I started to think about it and came to the conclusion it had to be either a really lucky roll in the RNG with every proc running and the fact I have 200 extra attack power vs demons from the set bonus, or it had something to do with the extra attack power attached to a windfury attack. The later one sounded alot more interesting so I started to check it out. I didn't find anything in the newer rogue threads, although this could be something that was proven ages ago, so I dropped it for a few weeks. Then I found something in the warrior thread http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t18771-protection_warrior/ in chapter VIIIc. Skill Rotations. In the end of this chapter the author claims it is possible to do heroic strikes on the attack that procs windfury attacks as well as the windfury proc, meaning there's a period of time where this attack power boost is subject (in theory) to be used for other instants as well.
I am not deeply acquainted with the exact mechanics of our beloved windfury totem, but I would want to discuss whether there's a period of time when you trigger a windfury attack where your extra AP from the windfury attack can be used for an instant (such as a sinister strike or a finishing move as rupture) or not.
So, I haven't tested this myself, nor have I seen the formal testing of this (which might mean it's time to test it again, but anyway); however, my understanding is that a Windfury proc, despite what the tooltip says, actually does two different things:
1) It grants one extra attack, and
2) It grants a 1.5 second buff that increases your attack power by the amount listed in the tooltip.
What this means is that other attacks can occur during the WF buff, and do in fact benefit from the AP. In practice, as the uptime is small and one generally has latency, trying to time attacks against it is tricky; but it can be done.
It might be noted, however, that 445 AP (or 578, with talent), while certainly nice, isn't going to totally account for megacrits by itself. 578 AP is +41 DPS (or so) - on an instant attack (normalized to 2.4) that works out to about +99 damage, or about 240 damage, premitigation, on a crit. After mitigation, it's going to be about 200 damage. So it turns a 3.6k SS crit into a 3.8k SS crit, but there's clearly other things going on here.
My suspicion is that these megacrits are usually due to all your buffs cosmically aligning and happening to hit all together. WSC, Executioner, and Mongoose all up, during the WF buff, with a roll that happens to be max damage in the first place... and so on. Consider: if we neglect mitigation entirely (which is actually possible if Exec and Mongoose both proc), a 3.8k crit is an unmitigated 1560 noncrit; we have a x1.06 multiplier from aggression, x1.1 from surprise attacks, and x1.06 from Slayer's; this is a base of 1260. You get 98 from SS, plus 398 from a max-roll warglaive hit, means one needs to get 765 damage from Attack Power; this would require 765/2.4 * 14 = 4463 AP. Now, this is a lot, to be sure, but with full raid buffs, the Warglaives set bonus, the WF proc, Unleashed rage, etc., it's within the realm of possibility.
Now, the other interesting thing I noticed today (which probably is worth testing to be sure) is that in the combat log, the beginning of the Windfury buff appears after the WF attack has actually occurred; thus, one is forced to wonder if the WF attack itself actually benefits from the buff, or only any other attacks that happen to occur within 1.5 seconds thereafter. Best way to test is probably 2 low-damage weapons in Blasted Lands, with a shaman to drop totem and heal you - shouldn't take more than a few minutes to see what's happening.
On the WF buff topic - yes, it works as Ald mentioned with a hidden ~1 sec AP buff. Timing Sinister Strikes and Ruptures to fall in there would be.. difficult at best. Considering a WF-buffed Rupture only gains an extra ~100-150 dmg.. roughly the same for SS after Crit and Armor modifications.. its just too tight to accurately and reliably do, for a fairly small buff. That said, as long as you don't cap out your energy it won't hurt to try - although I'm not entirely convinced a person would be disciplined enough to never wait too long and let energy cap out, effectively nullifying any gain (and then some) that they may or may not have obtained. Good luck though!
Logs to back it up: (From some sword spec / WF proc testing 2 months ago, using [Heartless])
1/1 20:19:51.640 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 535. <-- Normal attack
1/1 20:19:54.046 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:19:54.046 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 905. <-- Crit which procs WF, normal AP
1/1 20:19:54.250 You gain Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:19:54.250 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization. <-- My WF attack procs Sword Spec
1/1 20:19:54.265 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 547. <-- Higher AP WF attack (Normal and WF range overlap a bit in this test)
1/1 20:19:54.640 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1278. <-- Definitely has higher AP
1/1 20:19:55.453 Windfury Attack fades from you.
1/1 20:19:56.359 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 490.
and then 20 seconds later..
1/1 20:20:11.046 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:11.046 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 899. <-- No extra AP
1/1 20:20:11.046 You gain Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:11.046 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
1/1 20:20:11.062 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 604. <-- Certainly has extra AP
1/1 20:20:11.453 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 503. <-- Hard to call, but some non-WF hits were in the 430's
1/1 20:20:12.343 Windfury Attack fades from you.
1/1 20:20:13.359 You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
1/1 20:20:13.359 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:13.359 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 455. <-- No extra AP
1/1 20:20:13.421 You gain Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:13.421 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 535. <-- Again, hard to call but probably has higher AP
1/1 20:20:13.421 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1259. <-- Certainly higher AP
1/1 20:20:14.359 Windfury Attack fades from you.
1/1 20:20:15.828 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1112. <-- No added AP (probably)
Slightly off on a tangent, if anyone can figure out what is going on here.. well I'm pretty baffled. Wow Web Stats
Specifically, the events around 20:44'29. My best guess is that the +15 energy lines are actually 1 second delayed and sinister stike proc'd a sword spec, which proc'd WF, which proc'd another sword spec. 2 of which crit and my MH/OH autos missed. I obviously knew SS and WF could inter-proc, and Sinister Strike could proc Sword Spec.. but DAMN thats not an easy one to read, especially when I started by looking at the energy regen procs with the assumption they appear ~0.2 seconds late.
Wow... that *is* wierd. Let me take a crack at this:
A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing)
So, the first thing to note is that there are only 7 hits here; OH hits in lines A , C, and P; MH hits in lines K, N, and O; and the SS in line G. Thus, everything that procs must proc off one of these effects
Now, D and F must be procced by OH attacks (unless there's some wierd unknown mechanic happening here, anyway); the only possible options are A and C, so I guess we're saying A procced D and C procced F. The 1 sec delay is odd, although I'm pretty sure I've seen such things before. now E is procced by... something. My guess would be the SS in line G, but it doesn't really much matter; suffice it to say, a SS proc occurs; this is presumably line H based on the time stamps. Now, the conundrum is the WF in line J; since WF can't proc off SS or OH attacks, the only possible options for the triggering attack are K, N, and O; since N and O are way too late, I think we have to assume it's K. We also get an additional MH attack from the SS proc in row M. These both need to be MH swings. Fortunately, I think there's an easy resolution: you'll note that if J is a natural MH autoattack, neither N nor O can be an autoattack, as they occur within .6 seconds of J. Thus, I think the only reasonable explanation is that N and O are the WF and SS procs (in some order), and I is an OH autoattack (which fits timewise - it's spaced 1.1 to 1.2 seconds from each of C and P) This is weird in that line O is pretty late to be a proc hit, but I see no other explanation.
Thus, we have:
A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) --OH Hit B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --MH Miss C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 --OH Hit D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by A E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Probably procced by G; possibly by C F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by C G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 --SS Hit H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --Sword Spec proc misses I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --OH Miss J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack --Procced by K K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 --MH Hit L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack --Buff generated by J M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by either N or G; I'd guess N N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 --WF Proc hits O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 --Sword Spec proc hits P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing) --OH Hit
The delays do make things confusing, but I don't really see any other sensible interpretation. And I do recall hearing the rule of thumb that procs can be up to 1 second after the triggering attack, so, messy as it is, this seems entirely reasonable.
On the WF buff topic - yes, it works as Ald mentioned with a hidden ~1 sec AP buff. Timing Sinister Strikes and Ruptures to fall in there would be.. difficult at best. Considering a WF-buffed Rupture only gains an extra ~100-150 dmg.. roughly the same for SS after Crit and Armor modifications.. its just too tight to accurately and reliably do, for a fairly small buff. That said, as long as you don't cap out your energy it won't hurt to try - although I'm not entirely convinced a person would be disciplined enough to never wait too long and let energy cap out, effectively nullifying any gain (and then some) that they may or may not have obtained. Good luck though!
Why, thanks. :-) I always said rogue is one of the easiest classes to play good but the hardest to truly master.
I've already found out that it is close to impossible to try to time every SS and rupture to a WF buff, and I don't think it would yield any higher damage output in the end due to the erronously nature that is human. What I'm keeping in mind is that only when certain circumstances apply, one should try to look out for a WF proc before using his or hers energy. These circumstances ends out to be quite strict and there's a few of them so they pretty much outrule waiting for sinisters and ruptures most of the time.
On a sidenote, rupture gets outruled all the time in my book due to the high risk of capping out energy (5 cp's yield 25 energy from RS). Though my gut feeling isn't a scientific evidence I don't believe delaying the cycle yields higher damage in the end either, since I already have a problem with overlapping ruptures when I'm lucky with combat potency gains. Thus I'm focusing in finding the WF-moments for sinister strike instead. By WF-moments I mean when there's no damage to be gained by playing smart except for holding that sinister strike back until either the last second before energy caps out or until WF actually procs.
What circumstances form these WF-moments?
- One has to have below 80 energy and obviously above 40 for sinister rogues, and no tick the closest second that caps out energy alongside with a bad timed combat potency.
- One has to have below 5 combo points, since one is better off using the 5 cp's on a finishing move in most cases.
- The obvious one: if one is below 5 combo points but slice n' dice times out it's clearly better to renew SnD instead of waiting for a WF-moment.
And the last but not the least, one has to have windfury totem.
Let's say we manage to use the WF-moments a few times during a fight we actually would gain quite some damage in the end. I encourage you other rogues to try this as well, it really brings complexity! Too bad practical issues negates the moments to actually play a rogue like this. At current date I only find this playstyle really useful on Anetheron and Teron Gorefiend.
A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) --OH Hit B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --MH Miss C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 --OH Hit D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by A E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Probably procced by G; possibly by C F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by C G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 --SS Hit H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --Sword Spec proc misses I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --OH Miss J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack --Procced by K K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 --MH Hit L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack --Buff generated by J M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by either N or G; I'd guess N N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 --WF Proc hits O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 --Sword Spec proc hits P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing) --OH Hit
I was reading it as: A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) --OH Hit B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --MH Miss C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 --OH Hit D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by A E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by G F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by C G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 --SS Hit H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --OH Miss I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --Sword Spec proc Miss J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack --Procced by K K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 --MH Hit L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack --Buff generated by J M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by N N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 --WF Proc hits O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 --Sword Spec proc hits P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing) --OH Hit Q: 20:44'31.328 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 646 --MH Hit
I have never seen a "You gain 1 extra attack through X" message appear *after* the attack which procs it. The gain is always reported first, then the attack which proc'd it. Generally the 2 lines appear on the same timestamp, occasionally with a small (< 100ms) delay). The actual extra attack always appears with some delay, generally 0.2 to 0.5 seconds after the gain message and attack proc combo.
Further, if you look at my *next* MH attack at Q and do some math:
27.500 + [(31.328 - 27.500) / 2] = 29.414. Since my haste did not change over the period of this example, this pretty much pegs us right line K, validating that hypothesis.
For the OH:
28.187 + [(30.296 - 28.187) / 2] = 29.242. This lands us pretty close between H and I, but closer to H. Further, the previous idea that there is always a delay between proc and attack for extra attacks.. H cannot by a proc'd attack from E/G. Or at least, its way too damn early.
And yes, aylene, rogues certainly are one of the easiest classes to play (SS, SS, SS, SS, SS, SnD, repeat.. 94% dps) and hardest to master.
Hi guys, I have a question that's been haunting me for a couple weeks now.
My friend told me that the best race for a PvE rogue is human because you get 10 expertise for mace/sword because they add up, so you have 2.5% less chance to be dodged on MH and OH attacks.
Now this sounds FISHY to me in that...from what research I have done, weapon specialization doesn't apply across hands, so why should expertise?
Does anyone have any hard evidence of this being true or false? I've tried using the search function through posts to find this so I didn't have to ask, but I couldn't find anything.
OK so for a while i have been using Dragonstrike mainhand and Vengful sword for offhand, i was specced mace/sword
I just got my MH vengful sword so i went double swords
for some reason it seems i did more dps with my dragonstrike mh / sword oh then double swords
is it possible that the haste proc on the dragonsttrike give me more swings then mainhand sword specalization, i havent researched it much i dont know where to start all i know is that the 212 haste that dragonstrike provides per proc for 10 seconds
15.77 haste = 1% more swings
so 212/15.77 = 13.44% more swings for 10 seconds
depending on how much it procs it seems it procs allot like 2-3 ppm or if im wrong what does it proc but if it does lets say u have 13.44% more swings for 20 seconds per minute
is that better than 5% chance to get a sword proc with mainhand
also consider adding in the 5% extra crit damage with mace MH
i dont know the exavt mechanic of sword procs but isnt it only from white dmg so OH procs more sword swings than mainhands right so im getting MH fist dmg with haste and 5% more crit and a sword pro OH
i dont really know how to work this out or if someone has worked this out already but it really seems that i did more dps with dragonstrike mainhand and veng sword offhand with mace/sword spec than double veng swords 20/41 sword spec
if someone can help me out who is good at working these things out please reply
Hi guys, I have a question that's been haunting me for a couple weeks now.
My friend told me that the best race for a PvE rogue is human because you get 10 expertise for mace/sword because they add up, so you have 2.5% less chance to be dodged on MH and OH attacks.
Now this sounds FISHY to me in that...from what research I have done, weapon specialization doesn't apply across hands, so why should expertise?
Does anyone have any hard evidence of this being true or false? I've tried using the search function through posts to find this so I didn't have to ask, but I couldn't find anything.
Thank you.
This is a display error, nothing more. The display is being updated in 2.4 to show individual expertise on each weapon.
This is a display error, nothing more. The display is being updated in 2.4 to show individual expertise on each weapon.
How can you be so sure though?
I guess that's what I'm asking.
I've seen people, especially warriors, say it's real, and other people, especially rogues, say it's a display error.
What makes them draw that conclusion?
I was checking out (in the dps sheet) the impact that different kinds of food had on my dps.
I was looking at a normal raid setup (BoK,BoM, 5 sunders, mark of the wild, imp. hunters mark, Grace of air totem and Strength of earth totem)
I started wit this as a base (saved it at that point)
When I added Hot spicy talbuk to that setup, I came on a negative impact (-0.55 dps) which looked very weird to me.
To be honest, I cannot believe that well fed food can have any negative impact on your dps.
Might be worth a look i.m.o.
My hit rating is 281 (360 if you add the 79 from precision talent) unbuffed.
There's a rogue posting in one of the threads showing WWS logs of him never getting dodged over several instance clears, using a sword+mace combo to cap expertise. If they didn't add up he wouldn't cap expertise. So yes, it's bugged at the moment, but that should be fixed next patch.
Yesterday i was wondering about hit rating cap on raid trashes in order to wear a "trash stuff" ; according to wowwiki it seems to be 3to4% depending on the mob's level Hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
443(hit cap on raid boss) - 63 (15.77x4)= 380
According to theses numbers I got convince that I should'nt surpasse 281 +hit on my character sheet
(+20hotspicy talbuk, +79 talent = 380)
This will allow me not to waste +hit on trashes and wear more ap/crit/ArP ->hope more dps !
With regards to all this windfury stuff, would it not be somewhat trivial for someone with a shaman pal to travel to the blasted lands and do this with a 0.9 or 1.2 dps weapon. That way there is absolutely no guessing whether or not the results being seen are part of the RNG or due to Windfury bonuses.
I mean, I believe that it's probably true based on the evidence shown, but when we're looking at logs that say: 604, definitely extra AP compared to 445, definitely no extra AP, but the weapon used has exactly the damage range listed, then I get a bit uncomfortable.
Granted, those servants aren't 0% armor mobs, so there is definitely *something* going on here that isn't just damage range. I suppose all I'd really need to see is a full combat log of such a parse, but the reality is that it would be so much simpler to use a low damage range vendor bought 1.2dps weapon and be able to look at a combat log and see it plain as day.
Also, haste does not increase the number of PPM procs you get; it does not increase the uptime of any Mongoose, Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc. procs you may have. Hit, on the other hand, does. This is a 2nd major advantage for hit.
This is confusing to me. I'm assuming PPM = Procs per minute? If that's the case, once you have procced X# of times in a given interval, neither effect should increase the number of procs you get, but until that point both should. Hit means more of your attacks actually land, giving you another chance for that proc, but haste means you get more attacks in that interval, thus giving you another chance for that proc. I understand the game doesn't work like my brain, but this seems very logical to me. If what you say is correct, could you help me understand why?
Also, how can you tell something has a PPM instead of um... whatever else it could be? Is it along the lines of Instant Poison that says "Each strike has a 20% chance of ..." vs Dragonspine Trophy that says "Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to ..."? Thus IP doesn't have a PPM (it's based off the number of attacks you make), and DST has a PPM (can only proc X# of times in a given interval)?
And thanks for all the work on glancing hits going on, it's been very interesting reading, and can't wait to see the final word on it all. ^.^
I was checking out (in the dps sheet) the impact that different kinds of food had on my dps.
I was looking at a normal raid setup (BoK,BoM, 5 sunders, mark of the wild, imp. hunters mark, Grace of air totem and Strength of earth totem)
I started wit this as a base (saved it at that point)
When I added Hot spicy talbuk to that setup, I came on a negative impact (-0.55 dps) which looked very weird to me.
To be honest, I cannot believe that well fed food can have any negative impact on your dps.
Might be worth a look i.m.o.
My hit rating is 281 (360 if you add the 79 from precision talent) unbuffed.
Have done some further research on this issue.
It seems to happen in the following combination :
4 piece Netherblade armor set bonus
Sunder armor
Spicy hot talbuk well fed buff
When several raid buffs are up, the drawback happens at the 3rd sunder (0, 1 or 2 sunders still grant me a positive effect of 6-7 DPS)
When no raid buffs are up (except for the sunder), the drawback is at the 5th sunder.
When several raid buffs are up, but no sunder, there is no problem.
furthermore, I thought we could take it for granted that Spicy hot talbuk was the best rogue food in game, as long as you're not near the hitcap of 363.
But it appeared that Ravager dogs (40AP) and agi food (20 agi) gave me a slight bonus compared to Hot spicy talbuk.
Is there a moment, that the extra +hit is bypassed by extra AP or Agi (AP+crit), and if so, what hit rating is that?
This is confusing to me. I'm assuming PPM = Procs per minute? If that's the case, once you have procced X# of times in a given interval, neither effect should increase the number of procs you get, but until that point both should. Hit means more of your attacks actually land, giving you another chance for that proc, but haste means you get more attacks in that interval, thus giving you another chance for that proc. I understand the game doesn't work like my brain, but this seems very logical to me. If what you say is correct, could you help me understand why?
Also, how can you tell something has a PPM instead of um... whatever else it could be? Is it along the lines of Instant Poison that says "Each strike has a 20% chance of ..." vs Dragonspine Trophy that says "Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to ..."? Thus IP doesn't have a PPM (it's based off the number of attacks you make), and DST has a PPM (can only proc X# of times in a given interval)?
And thanks for all the work on glancing hits going on, it's been very interesting reading, and can't wait to see the final word on it all. ^.^
It has to do with the way the game treats proc per minute effects. Basically, the way the game currently functions, when your haste increases, the chance per attack to proc is decreased by a proportional amount to keep a constant PPM. For example:
0% haste, 1 PPM, 100 attacks per 1 minute, each attack has a 1% chance to proc
10% haste, 1 PPM, 110 attacks per 1 minute, each attack has a 0.91% chance to proc
Therefore, either way, you're still going to get 1 proc every minute. However, the game doesn't adjust proc rates based on chance to miss, and a missed attack can't proc something, so hit rating does improve observed proc rates.
As for percentage based proc chances (like poisons and windfury for example), these do benefit from haste.
03/20/08, 5:54 PM
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