I am sure this would be nearly impossible to model, but what are people's thoughts on using Shiv to "save" a DP stack that is about to expire? Good move or waste of energy?
I'm pretty much in the waste of energy camp. I don't believe that the extra damage from DP procs is going to make up for the lost damage from dropping down to a Shiv. I don't think it's going to be a huge loss but very unlikely to be a gain.
The only times where I think a poison-stack saving Shiv "might" be useful:
1) For whatever reason you absolutely want to keep your poison up on a mob (like Wound or Mind-numbing).
2) Possibly for Mutilate (if you are using a fast offhand) it might be helpful not to lose the stack since you get added damage from having the mob poisoned. Of course that means no one else has poison up on the mob. Reason for a fast offhand is a slow one would cost too much energy to be worth it.
I shiv on Naj when the bubble is up. No damage, but I still get a combo-point.
I'm uncertain as to whether this works through the BoP on illidari council in a similar way, but if it does, and you use PvP gloves for interruption it could be handy.
Similarly I shiv on Leo to make sure deadly poison is 5 stacked before a whirl. It's a utility move and as such it's dps will always be a loser, but having a full stack ticking during an interruption as oppsed to a partial stack is, in my experience, a not inconsiderable gain.
2) Possibly for Mutilate (if you are using a fast offhand) it might be helpful not to lose the stack since you get added damage from having the mob poisoned. Of course that means no one else has poison up on the mob. Reason for a fast offhand is a slow one would cost too much energy to be worth it.
I don't even think it's worthwhile with Mutilate for several reasons:
Shiv will be normalized at 1.7 with a dagger.
If your poison stack falls off, someone else probably has one up. Even if they don't, or there aren't other rogues/hunters attacking the same mob, you could just sit on your energy for a few seconds waiting for a proc instead of Shivving.
If your energy is about to cap and your mob is unpoisoned, it's better DPE to Mutilate unpoisoned than it is to Shiv.
I'm pretty much in the waste of energy camp. I don't believe that the extra damage from DP procs is going to make up for the lost damage from dropping down to a Shiv. I don't think it's going to be a huge loss but very unlikely to be a gain.
I believe Aldriana did some math on this a while ago, and the result turned out to be an incredibly slight net gain, but clearly not worth the extra effort.
I know such math has been done, but it wasn't by me - I want to say Vulajin or Latito, but I'm really not sure. I'm sure a little searching through the thread would turn it up, though.
I will say that one place where Shiv is useful is when one is responsible for keeping EA up; I've been responsible for that the last few nights, and you do get into situations where unlucky procs put you in danger of dropping either SnD or EA; since both of these are bad, it can be worthwhile to toss a few Shivs in to spike your CP generation if you see you're in danger of this.
Long and short of it is that Shivving to save your DP stack barely increases your DPS at the T5 gear level, and it's likely to become inferior in T6 and beyond as your Sinister Strike outscales your Shiv by more while DP damage stays roughly static.
Long and short of it is that Shivving to save your DP stack barely increases your DPS at the T5 gear level, and it's likely to become inferior in T6 and beyond as your Sinister Strike outscales your Shiv by more while DP damage stays roughly static.
Do you happen to have the actual stats you were basing this old post off? To me it seems a little suspect, because based on your post, your Sinister Strike to Shiv damage ratio was about 2.78; but by my calculations, that's not possible unless your AP was around 400.
For example, at 2000 AP, your SS-to-Shiv ratio should be 2.015, considerably different than you reported. This could definitely be enough to invalidate your result.
I hope they "fix" this (that is, I hope this isn't a case of something working as intended), but currently the Shard of Contempt can proc off Sap. It sucks knowing the buff is on internal cooldown and half the duration was wasted before the pull.
As it stands it also procs off blind, ranged attacks, anything that counts as a succesful ability on your target (their perception of "on hit" I guess). I laughed when I was in MGT, sapped something and it went off, I was afraid it'd break stealth. Thankfully it doesn't, regardless it's not a huge issue.
Do you happen to have the actual stats you were basing this old post off? To me it seems a little suspect, because based on your post, your Sinister Strike to Shiv damage ratio was about 2.78; but by my calculations, that's not possible unless your AP was around 400.
For example, at 2000 AP, your SS-to-Shiv ratio should be 2.015, considerably different than you reported. This could definitely be enough to invalidate your result.
Based on my current gear, with the following stats after raid buffs: 3461 AP, 334 hit rating, 34.91% crit, 12 expertise... (all calculations provided by my personal spreadsheet)
My DP will fail to proc in 12 seconds 3.03% of the time; in other words, I should have to Shiv roughly once every 396 seconds. Shivving once every 400 seconds is a loss of about 604.35 damage, or about 1.53 DPS.
Increasing my DP uptime to 100% will result in a gain of about 7.33 DPS. Thus, the net gain is about 5.80 DPS.
The interesting thing to note is that because my chance to land an attack (and therefore proc DP) has increased since that time, the frequency with which I'd need to Shiv has decreased. Thus, guaranteeing 100% uptime, while a minor DPS gain, eclipses the small DPS loss of having to Shiv.
Now, whether to do this in an actual raid or not is up to you. It would seem to me that your cycle would also benefit slightly from an occasional Shiv, which would give you a cheaper CP while simultaneously saving the DP stack. You'd be able to maintain as least as good energy efficiency on your SnD while increasing your Rupture uptime, on those rare cycle iterations where you did Shiv. Still, I don't know if the slight DPS gain is worth the effort required.
I'd love to see some theorycraft of Mutilate with the addition of Puncturing wounds. I'm planning on trying it out in the next few days in the next week or two. I recently moved to a t5/t6 guild from a t4/t5 guild, so I'm going to stick with combat daggers for a week or two so I can make a good comparison on the same bosses and submit decent WWS.
Noted that the OP was looking for a new mutilate build for 2.4, I'm going to try this.
Obviously, some talents are optional. I love having both Fleet Footed and Quick Recovery, it's one of the things I miss most in combat. However, I'm not sure exactly how much pure DPS I'm losing by switching points out of Vile to QR and FF and deciding not to take Ruthlessness. If anyone else feels like playing around with this, please do and post the results as you'll probably get the data before me (and it's faster and more accurate to see how it works at different gear levels.)
I'm particularly interested in Mut v. Combat on high mobility fights. I suspect that it will outperform daggers as 3s/5s/5r takes a very, very long time to get going whereas 2+s/4+r, rotate as needed, is far faster especially with the (relatively minor, but useful) boost from Vigor. Swords, however, are a different beast entirely as 1s/5r or 2s/5r is doable in nearly the same time, depending on CP procs.
Anyway, speculation. I unfortunately do not have a pair of swords to test out as well (because the RNG hates me on Spite) but we'll see how it works out with Daggers v. Mut.
If anyone already has some post 2.4 WWS parses lying around, please post 'em.
Based on my current gear, with the following stats after raid buffs: 3461 AP, 334 hit rating, 34.91% crit, 12 expertise... (all calculations provided by my personal spreadsheet)
You still seem to be undervaluing Shiv damage. What armor reduction are you assuming?
Here's what I come up with, assuming 23% physical damage reduction through armor (based on a guess of what you're using):
SS average damage = (260.5+3461/14*2.4+98)*(1+0.1+0.06)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 1259.13857
Shiv average damage = (146.5+3461/14*2.4)*0.75*(1+0.1)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 696.0492681
It probably doesn't make too huge of a difference (about 40 damage different from your estimate), but I'm just wondering why our numbers don't match.
I'd love to see some theorycraft of Mutilate with the addition of Puncturing wounds.
If you haven't already seen the Mutilate thread on these forums ([Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion), you should probably take a look. There still isn't much set in stone yet, especially after the recent buff, but it's probably a better place to discuss Mutilate theorycraft in particular to help keep it centralized.
You still seem to be undervaluing Shiv damage. What armor reduction are you assuming?
Here's what I come up with, assuming 23% physical damage reduction through armor (based on a guess of what you're using):
SS average damage = (260.5+3461/14*2.4+98)*(1+0.1+0.06)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 1259.13857
Shiv average damage = (146.5+3461/14*2.4)*0.75*(1+0.1)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 696.0492681
It probably doesn't make too huge of a difference (about 40 damage different from your estimate), but I'm just wondering why our numbers don't match.
Thanks, you actually led me to find three bugs in my sheet. One was that Aggression was only yielding 2% SS damage, the second was that SA wasn't applying to Shiv at all, and the third was that Shiv wasn't getting the "no-dodge" effect that hasn't actually been patched out. However, I also made an error in the way I calculated the chance for DP to fall off. In actuality, here are the correct figures:
Sinister Strike should deal 1305.10 damage. Shiv should deal 747.97 damage. This is a loss of 557.13 damage.
There is a 5.70% chance for DP not to proc in a given 12-second span. This means that we must Shiv, on average, once every 211 seconds. Thus we are losing 2.65 DPS to Shiv our DP stack back on.
Our DP DPS, assuming that much chance to fall off, is about 70.67. We'd gain an additional 13.33 by Shivving to save the stack.
So we are actually netting about 10.6 DPS by Shivving to save our DP stacks.
However, you don't shiv at 12 seconds, and will have to make the choice to shiv before it falls off at least a second before that. With a proc in the last second an unknown you can't really wait for.
In the other enchants section you mentioned cat's swiftness and dexterity for boot enchants but I was wondering what you thought of surefooted for your boots.
It's not mentioned because it's basically never optimal. On stationary fights, 12 agi is almost always better; on movement fights Cat's Swiftness is almost always better. From a PvE perspective, the only fight where the snare break is at all relevant is Vashj, and once you eliminate that, you just have a 10 hit enchant, which is worse than 12 agi for almost all rogues.
Thanks for the help. I'm used to the WoW rogue forums where people just say "lolspreadsheetnoob" which I'm working on getting but I have a mac so I'm trying to get excel on my computer without paying over $100. Speaking of help can anyone direct me on how to change my username or am I stuck with it? Just realized I put Omicica instead of Omicida. Thanks
Sinister Strike should deal 1305.10 damage. Shiv should deal 747.97 damage. This is a loss of 557.13 damage.
Your numbers still elude me. It appears you are penalizing Sinister Strike damage due to its ability to be dodged; however it makes more sense to me to penalize the energy cost, not the damage. After all, we want to compare the damage and energy required to obtain one combo point, not the damage and energy of a single attempted attack. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your model still, but we still aren't matching up.
Anyway, for another perspective, I took a little bit of a different approach -- I asked two questions:
1) How much damage is lost between the moment the deadly poison stack falls off and the time when it reaches 5 stacks again, compared to the damage that would occur in the same time with a constant 5-stack? (In other words, how much poison damage would be saved by using Shiv.)
2) How much damage would it take to bring Shiv up to equal DPE with Sinister Strike?
Shiv becomes beneficial when these values are equal. Based on my calculations, with your gear, you would need to recover about 394 poison damage per successful Shiv in order to make Shiv worthwhile. The question is, would you expect to lose that much? A full poison stack does 261 damage per 3 seconds, so to me it sounds reasonable that Shiv is a good idea. But modeling a deadly poison stack is something that is a little beyond my scope.
Thanks for the help. I'm used to the WoW rogue forums where people just say "lolspreadsheetnoob" which I'm working on getting but I have a mac so I'm trying to get excel on my computer without paying over $100.
You could download OpenOffice. Some functionality will not work with it (at least for the DPS Spreadsheet), but you will be able to use the basic functions.
You could download OpenOffice. Some functionality will not work with it (at least for the DPS Spreadsheet), but you will be able to use the basic functions.
The Gear sheet, however, is totally compatible with OpenOffice - more or less by necessity, as I don't have Excel at home either.
Could anyone tell me what the currently accepted number for rogue expertise is? 23 expertise or 26? This thread says 26 but the 'accepted theories of theorycraft' thread says 23.
Has anyone tested [Righteous Weapon Coating] yet? I only assume it won't stack with the WF and poisons, but sounds like it could be better than poisons depending on proc rate.
I "tested" it very informally during PTR. I dual-wielded it for 2 hours, grinding the flying demons down the hill from the badge vendor, mainly to see if the proc would stack.
It seemed to proc at about the same rate as Mongoose.
03/27/08, 5:42 PM
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