Asherz

I especially like the weapon comparisons under the 2.3 Preliminary Info section.

Would it be a good idea to flush this out a bit more such as including comparison information down to weapons like Spiteblade, Blinkstrike or even a top level blue item?

 

• Vulajin

I would rather the section didn't become any more bloated than it already is. Also, as per the information in the Weapon Selection and Talent Builds section, the general strategy is to pick the highest DPS weapon within the "slow" speed range. If a rogue has trouble figuring out what order to rank [Heartless], [Spiteblade], and [Blinkstrike], then this thread's probably not going to be enough help for him.

(edit) Also, my apologies for lacking updates on this lately. I just became a raid leader in my guild this past Sunday, so it's been a tough week. Some more stuff will be incoming over the next couple hours.

 

Cloak-SH

It may be worthwhile to note the existence of [Shifting Tanzanite] as it is the best dps blue gem in the game.

Apparently it is a somewhat rare drop from the bosses in heroic SV, they haven't been cooperating with me as of this point.

 

• Vulajin

Thanks for reminding me, it has been linked before in this thread and I just completely forgot about it.

 

nelalas

It might be worth noting in your raid buffs / totems section that shamans can keep both Windfury and Grace of Air (or Tranquil Air) buffs active at the same time. Windfury + Grace of Air will be superior to Grace of Air + Instant Poison. This "twisting" of totems is somewhat mana intensive, but not difficult, and is extremely useful in short DPS or threat-sensitive fights.

 

tymoney321

Grace of Air doesn't effect weapons at all. So You can have Instant/Deadly+Grace if you are not using windfury. Not quite sure what you are talking about in that above post honestly.

 

• Vulajin

It is possible to "twist" Windfury and Grace of Air totems, dropping both of them in alternation, thus granting your party the effects of both totems. You can have WF+DP and GoA simultaneously by doing that, instead of GoA and IP+DP.

 

nelalas

The Windfury totem buff can be maintained simultaneously with the Grace of Air totem buff by a shaman. Therefore the argument between using Windfury vs. Grace of Air + Instant Poison is not exactly accurate. The argument becomes using Windfury + Grace of Air vs. Instant Poison + Grace of Air, and I'm quite confident that Windfury > Instant Poison. My enhancement shaman regularly keeps both Windfury and Grace of Air active for our melee group.

 

Calidar

It will also be a footnote in the theorycraft history books come 2.3.

 

izobelle

Blizzard has said they don't really care too much about this so called "totem twisting". I wouldn't read 'they're gonna change it' from that, but maybe they will.

On the other hand, it's such a waste of time and mana on the shamans part that I REALLY think you'd be hard pressed to find a shaman interested in doing this. They need to be continuously throwing totems down, and can't really do anything else effectively at that same time (heal or DPS).

It's only really a proof on concept; hardly applicable in a raid.

 

songster

They've said that it's definitely unintended, that the only reason it's not been removed already is for technical reasons, and that they're actively looking into ways to fix it. No ETA on the fix though.

 

Katherine

Sounds for me as if they didnt want to go the sledge hammer way this time, which simply would have been "10 second cooldown on <element> totem after last cast".

 

Tornwings

I have a question. So I was thinking of lvling a rogue alt. I know aat the T5+ levle of gear swords become better than daggers. At the lvl 70 blues/kara lvl of gear, are swords still better than daggers, or are daggers better untill you get better gear?

 

Varsyn

I think part of the confusion on the derived numbers may be the surface inconsistency in them. Even looking at Aldriana's thread, I am still a little confused as to how exactly these work out. For example:

1agi = 2aep
1cr = 1.6 aep

Trying to reconcile that:

1agi = (AP from agi) + (Crit rating from agi * 1.6)
1agi = (1) + ( (22.077/40) *1.6)
1agi = 1 + .883 = 1.883

It looks like Aldriana assumed vitality, but even then:
1agi = (1.02) + (.883 * 1.02) = 1.92

So, I am left wondering how exactly 1agi is worth 2aep within this system. So maybe a quick summary in the same place as the displayed numbers explaining how the base values were derived might help.

 

• Aldriana

The conversions assume whatever talents and buffs you have selected in the sheet; thus, if you have Vitality, it assumes Vitality. And, more to the point, if you select Kings, it uses Kings. Since Kings is relatively common in 25-man raids, this is generally a sensible thing to factor in.

 

Varsyn

I assumed as much for your sheet (and I do love your sheet, by the way. /end ass kissery). Sorry for the obscurity, I was more directing the post at Vulajin, because I wasn't coming up with something that made those numbers consistent (as he has a separate value for with kings). Rather, I am not seeing exactly what combination of buffs/talents yield those numbers.

Either way, in the context of this thread, if Vulajin is going to keep the rating system there I would suggest that the exact "assumptions" made are included to clear up the confusion surrounding the system.

As of now, the only way I'm seeing agi = 2.0 is with 2/5 sinister calling, and that seems like a poor assumption considering the rest of the assumptions here seem to be biased towards combat rogues.

(with 2/5 sinister calling: 1agi = 1.06 + (22.077/40)*1.6*1.06 = 1.996)

So how about if with the system you choose, Vulajin, you just define the assumed talents and buffs that are active. I think that will go a long way to alleviate the confusion people are finding.

*edit*

For clarity, I am referencing

Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are derived from Aldriana's Rogue Gear Spreadsheet (link in References section) based on a projected pre-SSC/TK level of gear and a combat swords build (though they should apply to most straight combat builds). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP

And the actual issue is, with a combat swords build, Vitality is the only agi enhancing talent and we still have 1agi = 2AP without kings. This is what is confusing me.

 

Darlal

What balance option do you have set? If the sheet isn't set to "Offensive" it will factor in the dodge/armor from agility as well.

 

nelalas

This may be true for your raid but our enhancement shaman has no problem twisting totems and contributing a fair portion of DPS. He is not number one but he is not dead last either, and the DPS lost by this one character having to switch air totems every 10 seconds is certainly gained back by the other four melee in his group. We do not do this for every boss.

If totem twisting is going to be disallowed then it is now a mute point; I was only sharing an idea that works well for our raid.

 

Dontmindme

The one thing that changes the most with gear is attack power. As your equipment and weapons get better, the value of attack power goes down. This occurs because increasing one's hit or crit or haste gives percent damage increases, while increasing attack power has diminishing returns as your overall attack power goes up.

For example:
Pre-Kara: Most sheets are going to show the 16 AP gem (out of the standard gems) as best.
Mid-Kara: I ran into a brief moment where the 8 Agility came out on top, but nearly neck-to-neck with 16 AP and 8 Hit.
Late-Post-Kara: 8 Hit gems reign supreme.

Why? Well, when your base AP is only about 1500, 16 AP means quite a bit. Agility is half based on AP (half crit) so some of it scales well, some doesn't. Hit rating being purely a % increase to damage, scales best.

As to the swords vs. daggers, right now swords of the same level are superior to equal daggers at all gear levels because of the superiority of sword specialization.

 

Tosa

Where would you put Dragonspine there? I think that Dragonspine by itself pretty much puts 8 hit on top.

Hold shift for focused movement.

 

Arindelest

Not sure I quite follow. I was under the impression that X Amount of attack power is going to always give you 1 DPS and that's not going to change. This would imply that Attack Power does not scale inversely as the amount of it you have goes up.

On the other hand Crit and Hit (as well as Haste of course) are going to become more valuable with more on-crit abilities (Seal Fate, Hourglass, etc.) and on-hit abilites (Dragonspine Trophy, Poisons, etc.).

I could be wrong here but I always assumed this.

 

• Zellyn

The xAP/14=yDPS only applies to white damage. AP also scales instant attacks and finishers, so the DPS gain is much larger than just one AP.

<08-07-09 02:09>[Velth] This is the behavior of a benefactor of the EJ forums?

 

Urgonzigh

Can someone point me to the math or testing which supports the rating of 4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP? All I can find is, "that's what the spreadsheet says."

 

Faytte

The advantage held by swords is not simply due to sword specialziation, but also do to the much more efficient finisher rotations that all non-backstab specs utilize. The average finisher rotation for sword rogues is in the mid 20 seconds (depending on 2 piece tier 4 or no). The average finishing rotation for c-daggers (3s/5s/5r) takes over a minute. That means that over time your combat sword/fist rogue is keeping rupture up on the target more often, and the increase in rupture dps offsets the DPE advantages of backstab over SS and generates a lead in overall dps.

The single easiest way to 'help combat daggers' is to address the rotation. That could mean cheapening backstab cost leading to more CP, or something else entirely.

Farewell, remorse: all good to me is lost; Evil, be thou my good.
~Paradise Lost (bk. IX, l. 171)

 

• Aldriana

I would suggest that we not go down the road of swords vs daggers, as we've already almost had one thread closed due to this debate. However, stated briefly: it is true that daggers get less finisher damage than swords; however, it is also true that backstab is more energy-efficient than Sinister Strike, such that the total damage from Combo Point Generators + Finishers is about the same in both cases. Sword Spec - and in particular OH Sword Spec - is actually the main reason for the superiority of swords these days.

If you would like more information about this, there are any number of posts on it in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread.