I am confused, are you suggesting a rogue using improved expose armor instead of sunders ?
We are using CoR now, we had 2 locks in the raid when I had 2.3k dps. We do have a survival hunter who is giving 300 AP with expose weakness. However, now we use feral druid in tanking group for devotion aura+imp.
1) Original estimates were made with no actual data on proc rate. As it turns out, the proc rate is towards the high end of my estimated range, and, as such, it's better than I initially indicated.
2) The major thing limiting it is the Expertise cap. Rogues have no alternative DPS talent to take in place of Weapon Expertise, so all combat rogues have 10 Expertise to start with; additionally, Slayer's Boots are far and away the best boots in the game, which provides another 6 Expertise. Thus, all endgame rogues will be at 16 Expertise without Shard, and, as such, Shard will provide at most 10 Expertise benefit - or just under 40 rating, relative to the 44 on the trinket. Does this cripple the trinket? No. It just means that it's about 10 EP weaker than the strict ratings would have you believe. Still very good? Yes. Better than anything seen so far other than DST? Sure. But I'd be willing to bet that when and if Naaru Sliver comes along, it'll be better.
Now, in terms of pre-endgame rogues (who thus don't necessarily have Slayer's Boots) the situation improves *somewhat*... although even there, Belt of 100 Deaths gives 6 Expertise and is a strong option. Fundamentally: it's definitely a good trinket, and most rogues are going to want to get it... but there are other itemization choices that may limit ability to use it.
And yes, no one is really arguing these points. That said, I find this perspective a bit slanted from "where one sits" I suppose.
First of all, many of us don't have Dragonspine Trophies.
Second of all, many of us don't have Vashj belts.
Third of all, there is much to be said of using non-Vashj belts if one can find the expertise elsewhere as the stats on Don Alejandro's, Deep Shadow, the new badge belt actually look a lot better when one stops seeing the Vashj belt as "the best belt in game" because it offers expertise.
Fourth of all, Slayer's Boots are off Felmyst. Many of us are a long ways from Felmyst. I'd put my guild at 3+ months away.
Fifth of all, I've no doubt the Sliver will be better. Better than the DST for that matter. It's also off Muru as far as we know,. Muru won't even be accessible for probably 4-6 weeks. Let alone killed. And who knows how often that trinket is dropping.
Bottom line, the second best rogue trinket in the game is in heroic Magister's (0 for 8 by the way; already hate the place) and for those of us running Romulo's / Berserker's, it's a fairly gigantic upgrade. In fact, with the AToL about 2 weeks away for me, the chance to run without a clicky trinket if the Shard decides to drop for me would be a welcome change to be honest. Sure, I'd have loved a DST or WSC the past 6-12 months. It didn't happen. This probably will at some point soon.
And I'm not the only rogue for him this is completely realistic (ditto the AToL), while the other rare-ish drop items in T4/T5 content are already out of the question. Similarly, a late T6+ drop and T6 boots we aren't close to yet don't factor into the consideration. Even with said boots, it seems like a DST user would run DST/Shard over almost anything else, making the trinket, well, interesting. At least as interesting as getting a Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape is for a Cloak of Fiends user, and probably more so.
I'm not really trying to start an argument here, but this is the second best item in slot in game until the Sliver comes out. And even then the Sliver won't exactly be "accessible". This is. Everyone pretty much should want one. Everyone without a DST should be like me and in Magister's Terrace every day until they get it.
I am confused, are you suggesting a rogue using improved expose armor instead of sunders ?
A fully skilled Expose Armor will decrease the targets armor by 3075 compared to the lousy 2600 of a fully stacked Sunder Armor. Now the problem with Expose Armor is that it will block Devastate, so if your guild is using a warrior tank, you cannot use Expose Armor. The 2700 dps rogue's guild had two feral tanks, so there was no reason to use SR instead of the more powerful EA.
In short: If there's no prot warrior have a rogue apply Improved Expose Armor.
I was wondering what the value of the[Shard of Contempt] trinket is...Is it better then the [Warp-Spring Coil]. How good is it for a raiding rogue? How good is it for a pvp rogue? What hit rating should you try to stay at? what expertise rating do u want to aim for? I've seen the earlier post i just wanna see if any test were done to confirm the rating of the [Shard of Contempt].
I don't mean to sound whiney or contrite, so if it comes off that way, I appologize ahead of time.
That being said, How am I supposed to break 2k on this fight? I had trouble reaching 1850-1900 most attempts.
Breakdown of the group/buffs I had:
Group: 3 Rogue, Enchanement Sham, MS warrior
Buffs:
-Imp BS (no trinket)
-Imp WF
-Unleashed Rage
-Survival Hunter (Pushing 1250agi so ~300ap)
-FF
-Mangle
-Full Sunders
-CoR
-Haste pots (3 per fight)
-Drums of Battle (2 drums in group, popped 3 per fight per person)
-1 Heroism
-Blood Frenzy
-Imp Hunters Mark
-Elixir of Demonslaying (2, since 5min buff, up for full fight)
-Spicy Talbuk
CD's were popped approx 5-10 sec into the fight so as to have 2 AR's, 3 BF, 3 Drums/person and 3 Haste pots. Heroism was given on the 2nd AR.
Looking at most of the WWS parses, the only real difference I can see between myself and most of the rogues there is multiple heroisms (usually just 2, but occaisionally 3). Also, My gear stacks up against 90% of those parses, save the glaives and the newer peices of Tier6 loot already being picked up, again, small differences, not ~500 dps differerence.
Any thoughts on this from some others that have killed him doing > 1900dps. I feel like I'm shortchanging the raid if I dont at least try to procure answers, but at the same time, I was mashing buttons as fast as humanly possible, missing no cd's, no cycles, nothing. So, again, I ask for help.
*Edit* Just like to add, using both the spreadsheets, my actual kill/attempt dps from last week (1830) and this week (1845) are within 2-3% of spreadsheet expected DPS (1870's), which, considering most people have assumed Brutallus has a "higher than normal" armor rate, this seems to say otherwise.
And yes, no one is really arguing these points. That said, I find this perspective a bit slanted from "where one sits" I suppose.
<snip>
Lets be clear: I'm not arguing that it isn't good, or that many rogues won't use it for a significant period of time. It's just that when one is discussing what's best in slot, it seems to me to make sense to assume that you have access to the best available gear. If you want to characterize Shard of Contempt as "very good in slot" or "best in slot for pre-T6 rogues" or whatever, that's *fine*. But when talking in an abstract sense about what's best, it seems to me to make more sense to consider it from the perspective of what's available rather than what any one rogue might have.
Originally Posted by royaljester
*Edit* Just like to add, using both the spreadsheets, my actual kill/attempt dps from last week (1830) and this week (1845) are within 2-3% of spreadsheet expected DPS (1870's), which, considering most people have assumed Brutallus has a "higher than normal" armor rate, this seems to say otherwise.
The whole "higher than average armor" think is a myth. I tested both on PTR and live realms and came back with armor being ~7700, so I would assume he has 7685 just like many other bosses. The only difference is, every other sustained DPS fight since Tidewalker has had ~6200, so it seems high by comparison.
Lets be clear: I'm not arguing that it isn't good, or that many rogues won't use it for a significant period of time. It's just that when one is discussing what's best in slot, it seems to me to make sense to assume that you have access to the best available gear.
I tried adding Shard of Contempt to Aldriana's spreadsheet just to see what kind of numbers it would have. I used the same formula for expertise that the armor uses and the same ratio for the proc that the Hourglass uses (it has a similar "Chance to add X on hit for 20 seconds" proc). The numbers I got put it amongst the best rogue trinkets in the game.
The argument seems to be that some rogues already have an expertise higher than 10 due to existing gear, so a new item that puts them over the expertise cap isn't really that useful. I think this is the wrong perspective to take for evaluating this new item. One should consider that this new item could enable rogues to use different items in the slots where they are currently stuck using certain pieces of gear (e.g. Vashj belt) because those USED TO BE the only ones that gave expertise. Anyway, some food for thought for rogues that are stuck in the "I don't need any more expertise because I have items X and Y" mode.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you got it that far ahead of DST, you made a mistake.
Consensus seems to be that the proc uptime is ~40%, meaning the benefit of the trinket should be about .4 * 220 = 88 AP + 44 Expertise, or 88 + 44 * 2.75 = 209 EP, which puts it a bit behind DST but ahead of everything else.
Now, you're right, there's always the question of what you can give up elsewhere to gain benefit here. But consider: say you're using Belt of One Hundred Deaths and aren't human, thus having 16 Expertise. Just using the trinket and letting it cap out drops it's value by 11 EP; swapping out your belt for Belt of the Silent Path (the next best option) costs ~19 EP. So it's actually better to just be capped out than to try to swap out your belt for it. I suspect you'll find this generally true, particularly at the Sunwell level of itemization where T6 boots are really just that much better.
Second example: lets say you're human with Belt of One Hundred Deaths. Now capping out costs you 6 Expertise off the trinket, or about 66 EP, so it makes sense to drop the belt to get it, right? Well... kind of. The relevant comparison is whether it's better to drop the belt or just use a different trinket. Ashtongue and WSC both score about 180-185, so are about 25 EP behind it; thus, it does marginally make sense to drop 19 EP off belt to get 25 on trinket, but this is not going to be a game-breaking upgrade. I'm not trying to defame 2 DPS, but you may have larger upgrades available that are more worthy of your time and attention.
The argument seems to be that some rogues already have an expertise higher than 10 due to existing gear, so a new item that puts them over the expertise cap isn't really that useful. I think this is the wrong perspective to take for evaluating this new item. One should consider that this new item could enable rogues to use different items in the slots where they are currently stuck using certain pieces of gear (e.g. Vashj belt) because those USED TO BE the only ones that gave expertise. Anyway, some food for thought for rogues that are stuck in the "I don't need any more expertise because I have items X and Y" mode.
Thing is, I fail to see another item slot where the no-expertise fallback is anywhere close to as good as the expertise item. One hundred deaths is way ahead of deep shadow, whereas the shard isn't quite as far ahead as the variety of second trinket options availiable from what I've seen in playing with the sheets and trying to guesstimate where the shard stands.
Im trying right now to modify my spreadsheet to adapt it for trashes(hit cap, armor etc) : which stats do I have to change to get a correct one ?
I'd be very please to get some useful informations about it.
Thank you.
Im trying right now to modify my spreadsheet to adapt it for trashes(hit cap, armor etc) : which stats do I have to change to get a correct one ?
I'd be very please to get some useful informations about it.
Thank you.
I can't speak for the DPS spreadsheet, but for the Gear Spreadsheet the answer is basically "you don't". There's literally hundreds if not thousands of cells that would need to be changed to give answers for a lower-level mob, and the answers you'd get wouldn't be meaningful anyway.
I'd advocate that further discussion of this be moved to thread of whichever spreadsheet you're interested in modifying, though.
How am I supposed to break 2k on this fight? I had trouble reaching 1850-1900 most attempts.
<snip>
*Edit* Just like to add, using both the spreadsheets, my actual kill/attempt dps from last week (1830) and this week (1845) are within 2-3% of spreadsheet expected DPS (1870's), which, considering most people have assumed Brutallus has a "higher than normal" armor rate, this seems to say otherwise.
As a note: since Shard isn't yet modeled, it's hard to get an exact number out of the Gear Spreadsheet; but the estimate I'm putting together is closer to 1970 than 1870 for your gear and spec, so there is a "you're doing something wrong" component here as well. But lets start with the obvious differences.
First, I note that you've dropped WEx in order to use Shard of Contempt. This is a mistake. A large mistake. What you've effectively done is equipped a trinket with 4 Expertise Rating, an AP proc, and 10% fear/stun resist, which, while an admirable trinket for some situations, scores about 90 EP for a fight like Brutallus. You'd be far better off with Ashtongue Talisman and speccing back to WEx. This'll net you about 100 EP right off the bat.
Second, lets compare briefly to, say, my guild's Brut kill, which has 2 rogues posting 2200 DPS numbers, to see what differences there are between them and you. WWS in question: here.
Now, Rod has a Warglaive (2 now, but 1 for the kill), so is expected to do a bit more; but Sydric has gear very similar to yours so should be a fair basis of comparison. So what are the differences here?
*We're using 2 feral tanks, we are thus able to use Imp Expose Armor instead of Sunders (which is among the reasons I'm not doing 2200 DPS like the other rogues). This is a net +475 armor pen, which, by the table at the front, works out to about 180 additional EP.
*There's a ret pally in the raid, who's thus giving everyone +3% crit. This works out to about another 110 EP.
*I'm pretty sure Shifft was using the Solarian Trinket, which is another 85 AP.
So, that would be a net 500 EP or so difference so far, which works out to something like 200 DPS. Throw in the fact that the ret pally was in the melee group accounts for another 40 DPS per rogue or so, which brings total difference to 240. That group was also fed 2 heroisms, which is another 40 DPS or so past that. Given that Sydric did 2180 DPS, these differences would imply that you should be right around 1900, assuming you and he were both playing optimally.
Thus, we still have a small difference - 50 DPS, perhaps - to account for. It's less clear to me what that is; the usual suspects would be letting SnD drop, improper cycle management causing suboptimal Rupture uptime, mismanagement of cooldowns, and the like, but looking at your WWS I don't see anything too blatantly obvious. But, in all, a 50 DPS gap from theory is a little more reasonable - we've accounted for most of the difference with just the gear, spec, and buff differences noted above.
I will admit, I was getting carried away watching CD's and not focusing on SnD uptime, I also notice that the sheet gives me a 5/5 cycle now, I was pulling a 4/5 and even a 3/5 at some times, from habit sadly.
As for the trinket switch, I guess the only reasonable way to use that as a Human is to not have Vashj belt at all, and even then, I'd be sitting 1 over the cap (which you stated was a waste of 11eap, roughly 5-7 less than switching back to AToL, but all in all, a fairly close trade-off, so proably stop using it, at least until I get a new belt).
I thank you for the insight. The big question answered here isn't that I'm justified or almost justified in my dps output for that fight, but rather not knowing the approx values of some of the group/raid buffs and how to implement them. After reading more in this and other threads, I'm going to push for a rogue spot to be taken up by a Ret pally, our 2nd feral tank to come in on this fight and make another rogue be EA bitch with the hunter/GoA group, at least until we can continue to get clean kills.
Thing to keep in mind about Ret Pallies - particularly alliance ones - is that they're really only worth bringing if they're good. Yes, a Ret Pally will add 200 DPS to their group and 500 to the raid - but if they're only doing 1100 in the first place, you're actually operating at a net loss of raid DPS. So if you have a good Ret Pally doing 1.5-1.6k DPS in their own right, it definitely makes sense to bring them... but if you don't, it's not an issue that I would force. Yes, each rogue gains 100 DPS from the ret pally...but the ret pally does a couple hundred less DPS to start with, and boots a rogue out of the melee group, so even if the remaining rogues do more damage one has to look at whether it benefits the raid as a whole.
Similarly, with feral tanks: if you happen to have two competent, well-geared feral tanks, it's a definite asset on this fight - given that he doesn't crush, the higher sta/mitigation of a feral druid makes healing easier and allows a nice raid DPS boost from Imp EA. But if you just plain don't have a viable 2nd feral tank, it's better to use a well-geared warrior than to force the issue with an undergeared feral.
So, basically: there's definitely room for group optimization, but one still needs to operate within the confines of what's available to the guild; if you've never raided with a ret pally, this is probably not the time to start.
Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you got it that far ahead of DST, you made a mistake.
Consensus seems to be that the proc uptime is ~40%, meaning the benefit of the trinket should be about .4 * 220 = 88 AP + 44 Expertise, or 88 + 44 * 2.75 = 209 EP, which puts it a bit behind DST but ahead of everything else.
Slight correction here - the proc is 230 AP, making it 213 EP.
I know very little about paladins, especially the Horde kind, why are they assumed to do more dps on avg, without being "good"?
I agree completely, I would never suggest a crappy anything come to a raid over a competant raider, but I think we have a few very good players who could pull off Ret fairly well. As for the tank, we have two players, equally geared and probably very close in skill, so I see no downside, save our first kill had a warrior so now the other warriors all want a peice of the pie.
That might be an irrelevant question however I have been trying to understand how thats possible so please help me.
I was checking wws reports on brutallus and I have seen a human rogue with 2.7 k and Khazal, a horde rogue with 2.5kdps on brutallus while the maximum dps I have seen so far was 2.3k.
First of all, haven't examined the detailed data on Chhybrid's ~2700 dps on Brut, but even over an encounter of this length the RNG does allow for some variation in performance even with exactly the same cooldown use, consumeable use, etc. Also remember Ch had the best pre-Sunwell rogue gear in just about every single slot (including glaives) when that kill took place (he has more gear now as he received crafted gloves and Slayer's Belt, both significant upgrades).
In my guild's multiple sub-1% wipes I noticed my DPS (with almost identical gear to CH's) could vary by as much as 250 dps on one encounter to the next. I had a full to the enrage clock wipe on Sunday night with 2550 dps and only one heroism. We got our kill on Monday where I received 2 heroisms and I ended at at 2403 dps.
I know very little about paladins, especially the Horde kind, why are they assumed to do more dps on avg, without being "good"?
Seal of Blood (Horde Pally only) is superior for DPS than Seal of the Crusader. I have not delved too far into my own (excellent) ret pally's emo to fully understand, but I gather Seal of Blood scales with haste and procs more frequently the faster the pally is attacking, whereas SoC has a constant PPM that ignores the speed of the pallies attacks. If you want to learn more, search for any Paladin gripes on the pally forums from Turgon.
First of all, haven't examined the detailed data on Chhybrid's ~2700 dps on Brut, but even over an encounter of this length the RNG does allow for some variation in performance even with exactly the same cooldown use, consumeable use, etc. Also remember Ch had the best pre-Sunwell rogue gear in just about every single slot (including glaives) when that kill took place (he has more gear now as he received crafted gloves and Slayer's Belt, both significant upgrades).
In my guild's multiple sub-1% wipes I noticed my DPS (with almost identical gear to CH's) could vary by as much as 250 dps on one encounter to the next. I had a full to the enrage clock wipe on Sunday night with 2550 dps and only one heroism. We got our kill on Monday where I received 2 heroisms and I ended at at 2403 dps.
It's possible. Looking at the 2.7k WWS, obviously he has glaives, but in his group he also has a feral druid, and the raid has the luxury of a ret paladin. 2 bloodlusts, and chain drums. One really odd thing is that he is using executioner.
I don't have glaives, and no sunwell gear yet, and sustained almost 2.3k without a feral druid in my group or ret paladin. I did notice some attempts varying by a pretty big chunk of dps, and I attritubted that to my WSC + DST proccing during a BL+BF+haste+drum casting. Having your trinkets proc during that time is a huge plus. Another thing is, make sure your locks don't forget to refresh CoR...that happened several times to us : (.
Very good to know, thanks for the quick update. Still, being able to give around 700-750dps to the average/normal raid, on top of his own dps, wouldn't a ret pally only have to do 1100+Dmg to be considered "worth it"? Which, with a competant player and decent gear, I would think would be entirely possible.
Complaining about Seal of Blood is a popular pastime amongst all alliance Ret Pallies, as far as I can tell; regardless, it definitely does make a DPS difference. If you check the wwsscoreboard for Brutallus, the top 6 paladins are all horde, doing 50-100 DPS more than the top Alliance ret paladin (which happens to be the aforementioned Draynam). This is not to say a good alliance ret pally can't justify their raid spot anyway; it's just the gear + skill requirement is a bit higher than for Horde.
On the topic of Chhybrid... looking at this WWS, things to note compared to, say, Cybe's 2400 DPS are:
1) There are two feral druid tanks, and Casey has no rupture damage to speak of; thus, they are presumably using Imp EA.
2) 3 Heroisms
3) 7 drums, meaning at least 3 people in the group using them.
4) Group composition of Enhancement Shaman, DPS Warrior, Feral Druid, and Ret Pally, which is basically as stacked a group as you can ask for
So, yes, I can definitely see how with this sort of stacked buffs one could get as high as 2700, given that a 2-heroism dual-glaive rogue is reporting 2400. I'm not sure to what extent this is optimal group composition for maximal raid DPS, but it seemed to work, so who am I to argue? It might additionally be noted that we'll be seeing more of this as time goes on - in a few months, once people have geared up further, I fully expect to see a WWS with a rogue over 3k DPS on Brutallus.
So, yes, I can definitely see how with this sort of stacked buffs one could get as high as 2700, given that a 2-heroism dual-glaive rogue is reporting 2400. I'm not sure to what extent this is optimal group composition for maximal raid DPS, but it seemed to work, so who am I to argue? It might additionally be noted that we'll be seeing more of this as time goes on - in a few months, once people have geared up further, I fully expect to see a WWS with a rogue over 3k DPS on Brutallus.
As a side-note to this, my group consisted of an Enhance Shaman, 2nd rogue, DPS Warrior, BM hunter. So I did not have ILotP or trinket-buffed BS, but did have 6 FI procs. We also had a ret pally in the raid, but not in my group. Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I made an embarassing mistake on Monday. I had been farming Mana Tombs for agility scrolls right up until raid time and for this I was wearing my raid gear with Dory's Embrace (enchanted with +stealth) instead of my Gorefiend cape. I felt quite foolish when I discovered that after the kill.
Thing is, I fail to see another item slot where the no-expertise fallback is anywhere close to as good as the expertise item. One hundred deaths is way ahead of deep shadow, whereas the shard isn't quite as far ahead as the variety of second trinket options availiable from what I've seen in playing with the sheets and trying to guesstimate where the shard stands.
Yes but the main reason Belt of One Hundred Deaths is higher than, say, the new Belt of the Silent Path is due to the expertise. If you don't need the expertise anymore because you have the new trinket, all of a sudden One Hundred Deaths isn't as good as Silent Path. This is all I was trying to get at...to move away from this notion that something like One Hundred Deaths has the best rating as is therefore the best belt for all rogues, to consider that one component of its rating can now be rendered useless by a new trinket, and in that case it isn't so great anymore.
I know this isn't a radical idea...I guess I was just disappointed to see the Shard of Contempt dismissed almost immediately because on some spreadsheet somewhere it won't have a high upgrade score for a rogue whose gear already gives him/her high expertise. Perhaps we need a new feature from these spreadsheets...not just a list of upgrades by slot, but upgrade combinations (so rogues could see that a combination of Shard of Contempt and Belt of the Silent Path is better than a combination with higher individual scores, like Warp Spring Coil and Belt of One Hundred Deaths).
04/02/08, 9:07 AM
Similar Threads
