The crossbow comes in behind Blade of Life's Inevitability, at least for me; it's DPS is comparable, and it loses the stamina. And the Thori'dal thing has been mentioned, as any rogue that takes it over a hunter deserves to be shot. In a couple months, when your hunters have it, it's worth thinking about picking one up - but for the moment, it may be best in slot but not in a way that's actually useful.
Originally Posted by dazed420
I am curious, are we no longer interested in Madness or is the recent dialog only in regards to Brut?
I can agree with the use of the rogue BT trinket if used correct, saving energy before a finisher to get the max amount of SS with the buff, but I am having a hard time seeing the value of WSC over Madness.
I can see the BT trinket over Madness for Brut but for your standard trash and farm instances Madness is easy to use and no fuss.
As for Shard, given that I have the SSC and Mount belts, I use depths over don, you gain some stam and a little crit with no real socket bonus to speak of over the expertise.
So the question now comes, out of DST, Madness, WSC, Ashtongue, and Shard knowing that a non human is sitting at 16 with the SSC belt where do we go for max DPS for the Brut fight.
I don't think Shard is a viable option due to the fact that the loss in hit, over cap of expertise, and the constant static AP and AC ignore buff which is stacking with the other passive AC ignore and boss debuffs giving Madness the edge on that. If I'm wrong here could someone explain why so I can gain a better understanding please.
WSC vs Madness, once again I'm thinking the constant AP from Madness over times gives it a slight edge over WSC. Perhaps I am wrong and not accounting for the DPS gain from the extra ac ignore?
Madness vs Ashtongue, I think for any other fight other than Brut Madness wins out but for Brut I think and it appears others agree Ashtongue is the way to go.
Madness is reasonable trinket, but for many people it is inferior to both Ashtongue and WSC for sustained fights. Ashtongue has the usual limitations in terms of being very dependent on keeping up a sustained cycle, so for a fight where there are interruptions Madness may be better... but for this sort of fight, WSC is usually better still (as the proc is a *lot* more powerful making it comparable in the first place, and the fact that it can cool during interruptions is also a plus). There's also the fact that WSC is a rogue-only trinket from T5, and Ashtongue is a free reward for doing BT for a couple of months, while Madness requires a drop from the end of BT that other people are going to want - thus, a lot fewer rogues are going to have Madness than the other two, particularly since it's likely that even if it *does* drop for you, there's going to be someone else in the raid that *doesn't* already have 2 very competitive alternatives, and, as such, is going to want it a lot more badly than you do.
Now, this is not to say that there aren't fights where Madness would be useful; there are. But in terms of overall utility: if you have all three trinkets (Ashtongue, WSC, and Madness), Madness is the one you're going to use by far the least.
In terms of max damage on Brut in particular: using the estimates in this thread, one should be able to rank it against the other trinkets in the spreadsheet, and as Brut is approximated by "endless combat" fairly well, the answers that the spreadsheet gives should be fairly on-target. My suspicion is that you're going to find DST is best, followed by either Shard or Ashtongue.
Has anyone done any solid testing of mutilate post 2.4 patch buff and/or have any WWS reports to share? I have specced mutilate since 2.4, used it in 3 25-man raids so far, and it does seem that I've been able to equal my usual DPS output from combat swords (I have been combat swords with Spiteblade and an S2 arena off-hand).
However, the time is rapidly approaching when I will be spending a lot of badges on some new 2.4 badge weapons. I am kind of torn between the 2 Vanir's fist weapons for combat fists or the 2 new daggers for mutilate. I know that Vanir's right fist of brutality alone with a fist/sword spec is going to be a 50 DPS upgrade for me according to Aldriana's gear spreadsheet, but I also know that the daggers with mutilate will be a significant DPS upgrade from my current weapons as well. The DPS spreadsheet says that I'll be doing 100 DPS higher with the 2 new badge daggers and mutilate spec, but I know that the mutilate modeling in that sheet has been faulty in the past and I'm not comfortable trusting those numbers.
The theorycraft in this thread leads me to believe that combat is likely going to still be the top raiding spec over mutilate, but 2.4 has buffed mutilate a lot and from my own experience so far it seems that mutilate is a very viable raiding spec now that may equal combat. I am wondering what the EJ boards thoughts are on this matter and if any of you highly geared testing experts would be willing to take the time to post some WWS reports of mutilate in a high-end raid?
Right... but the point is, it works both ways; if you're using the trinket, it's true that the Vashj belt isn't as good since you don't need the Expertise as much anymore; but it's also true that if you're using the Vashj belt, the trinket isn't as good because you're not using all the Expertise it gives. Thus, the appropriate way to look at it is to consider which has the most reasonable alternative, and take the piece without Expertise that is as close as possible to the piece that has it.
For instance: consider my current situation. I have T6 boots, the Vashj belt, and lets pretend for the moment that I have a Shard of Contempt (even though I don't). All in all these provide 93 Expertise Rating, aka 23 Expertise, aka 7 more than I need. Where, then, shall I drop the 7 Expertise?
Option 1: Drop WEx to get under the cap. This replaces Expertise with... nothing, and is thus no better than just being capped (well, it gives a utility talent, but no DPS, so we won't count it).
Option 2: Drop T6 boots. Well, T6 boots are about 120 EP better than the 2nd best option - which I didn't even have. Even if you assume the Expertise on these boots does nothing, they're still better than my old Nyn'jah Tabi's. Thus, these aren't going anywhere either.
Option 3: Vashj Belt. The next belt down would be either Deep Shadow or Shadowwalker's, since I don't have a Don Alejandro's, and Silent Path isn't available yet. As such, I lose about 25 EP getting this... and would still be (slightly) Expertise Capped.
Option 4: Shard of Contempt. Well, both Ashtongue and WSC are about 25 points behind, and I would no longer be capped by so doing, so this proves to be the smallest DPS loss; hence, I'm best off refraining to use this trinket for the moment, and sticking with what I have.
Now, will there be situations where it's better to use Shard and drop the Expertise elsewhere? Certainly. It's just that with Silent Path not yet available, those people with the Vashj belt tend to be better off sticking with it; those people with T6 boots are definitely better off keeping those; and those people that are Human don't get a lot of choice in the matter. So the correct thing to say about Shard is: it's a good trinket for many people, but not everyone can make use of it.
I just want to be clarify, so as a human, shard is never as good as say, Ashtongue? Specifically, I don't have the belt of a hundred deaths, or the T6 boots. I never got WSC so my tinkets are DST and ashtongue with the obviously inferior Beserker's Call as my third place. So even though, my expertise is 0 from equipment at this point, it still wouldn't be worth equiping the shard?
I just want to be clarify, so as a human, shard is never as good as say, Ashtongue? Specifically, I don't have the belt of a hundred deaths, or the T6 boots. I never got WSC so my tinkets are DST and ashtongue with the obviously inferior Beserker's Call as my third place. So even though, my expertise is 0 from equipment at this point, it still wouldn't be worth equiping the shard?
Well, as a human with WEx and no Expertise from gear, you're at 15 Expertise, right? So the 11 from Shard doesn't put you over the cap; hence, there's no reason not to use it.
The point is that, as a general rule, if you're over the cap, dropping Shard to get back under is usually the way to go, it seems; but if you're not over the cap, it's just a great trinket. Particularly in your case, I might note; given that Ashtongue has severe limitations on certain fight types and you don't have WSC or Madness to patch, I would say that Shard is probably a very strong option.
Well, as a human with WEx and no Expertise from gear, you're at 15 Expertise, right? So the 11 from Shard doesn't put you over the cap; hence, there's no reason not to use it.
The point is that, as a general rule, if you're over the cap, dropping Shard to get back under is usually the way to go, it seems; but if you're not over the cap, it's just a great trinket. Particularly in your case, I might note; given that Ashtongue has severe limitations on certain fight types and you don't have WSC or Madness to patch, I would say that Shard is probably a very strong option.
You mention it is a "general" rule, but does it apply in the case of WEx + Shard + Slayer's Boots which puts you 1 expertise over the cap, or is that such a miniscule difference that Shard stays ahead.
Using the math for the EP calculation of Shard you posted earlier we'd get: 84 + 44 * 2.75 = 205 EP
If we drop 4 expertise off (wasted expertise) we get: 84 + 40 * 2.75 = 194 EP
If we drop 8 expertise off (wasted expertise) we get: 84 + 36 * 2.75 = 183 EP
The spreadsheet shows the EP value of AToL for me at: 189.32 EP
So what I take from this is that in the case of going 1 expertise over the cap it is better to keep Shard over AToL, however if it puts me 2 expertise over the cap AToL becomes better again. I am curious if this is the same break even point for everyone, or if lower gear levels show a different break even point for going over the expertise cap.
Please correct me if any of my conclusions have been incorrect.
Once it's in the spreadsheet I'll be able to give a more definitive answer to this, but my answer in the short term would be:
With, say, Vashj belt or T6 boots (but not both), which would cause Shard to put you 1 Expertise over the cap, the "nature of the fight" rule takes precedence.
Relative to AToL: On a fight like Brutallus where Ashtongue reaches it's full potential - and, in fact, with energy queueing, can even do better than what's in the spreadsheet - it's quite possibly worthwhile to use Ashtongue over Shard. On an interrupted fight (like Felmyst), it probably makes more sense to use Shard.
Relative to WSC: my guess here is that WSC is going to be better on low-armor bosses (Felmyst) while Shard will be better on high-armor bosses. Also note that the relative cooldown lengths can make a difference; for instance, on Felmyst, you will often be able to get two full uptime periods during a ground phase (at least, with good trinket management you can); Shard will often clip the second proc when Felmyst takes off. Thus I would probably use WSC.
I guess my point here is that there's a big ol' grey area around what's best with these trinkets in this circumstance. There exist fights where each will be optimal; it just takes some thought to figure out which fights each excels on. If I had to pick one trinket to use all the time with 16 other Expertise, I'd probably pick Shard. But in reality, I'd throw it in my bag next to the other two and pull out which was appropriate for each fight.
The source of my question was the most recent spreadsheet. Perhaps it has issues or perhaps I made a mistake but considering that I have best in slot for all but one ring and glaives, with pre sunwell gear, madness shows a DPS increase over WSC. The spreadsheet also does show a 1 DPS increase over madness using Ashtongue.
I have one final situtation to put out there. Based on having the gear I just made mention too, would you consider replacing the cursed vision with tier 6 helm to keep the 4 piece bonus to be able to wear the gloves of immortal dusk until one is able to win the bracers or belt or just wait? This question is based on trying to push for max dmg to get that first Brut kill, not asking for strats.
I've been pounding this in my head for a while and did the spreadsheet, says by doing this I end up with a 8.5 DPS increase, but thats if everything is optimal and nothing is messed up. Granted if I just waited till I got bracers I am look at getting close to a 40 DPS increase based on buffed stats. Materials for the gear is not an issue nor is access to the pattern, I ask because I have a hard time thinking that there will really be a 8.5 dps increase with buffed stats. Thanks
Sounds right to me. I mean, fundamentally, you have 3 set pieces and 2 nonset pieces that are best in slot, and you're looking at which slot loses less DPS by dropping from the nonset piece to the corresponding set piece... and as I recall, Immortal Dusk is a larger upgrade over T6 gloves than Cursed Vision is over T6 helm. Thus, my instinct would be that Immortal Dusk + T6 helm > Cursed Vision + T6 gloves.
Now, that said: I personally plan to wait a bit on getting the crafted gloves (and not only because my guild doesn't have the pattern yet), purely because: as upgrades in Sunwell go, the gloves are a relatively small one, and Sunmotes are in incredibly high demand right now; hence, it seems to make more sense to me to let other people who can get larger upgrades (and potentially not have to revert to an inferior item in another slot) get the upgrades first, and pick this one up for myself a bit further down the road. But if your guild has the sunmotes available now, it would be a DPS upgrade.
Im currently using talon and merc quickblade, with the new badge weaps comming out anyone think that the fists or daggers would be better or should i just stick with swords? Help meh plz!
Im currently using talon and merc quickblade, with the new badge weaps comming out anyone think that the fists or daggers would be better or should i just stick with swords? Help meh plz!
Point number 5 of this post has all of your answers.
Spreadsheet will give an obvious answer. 103 dps weap > 96 dps weap. Im asking in reference mainly swords vs fists or possible daggers. I was daggers forever including pre-bc but have never been fist spec. Based on also that the new fists have haste vs the meaty crits that backstab can deliver, or will the sword spec procs still outwiegh that? ty
Remarkably enough, the spreadsheets are smart enough to tell the difference between different weapon types and address this exact sort of question. Any answer that anyone else is going to give is either going to be A) spreadsheet based or B) speculation and heresay; as such, why not cut out the middle man and use the spreadsheet yourself?
Alternately, you could just read the last 5 pages or so and note that the fists vs swords question has been addressed at least twice in the past week.
Spreadsheet will give an obvious answer. 103 dps weap > 96 dps weap. Im asking in reference mainly swords vs fists or possible daggers. I was daggers forever including pre-bc but have never been fist spec. Based on also that the new fists have haste vs the meaty crits that backstab can deliver, or will the sword spec procs still outwiegh that? ty
Umm, since the DPS spreadsheet takes specs, haste, hit, etc, etc, etc into account, you obviously didn't take the time to actually use it.
Stop expecting someone else to do your work for you, Mr. Too-lazy #24,3523.
Rather then bashin plz read ty. And yes i did it, just asking for ppl who have possibly used these weapons in game on the ptr.
Just do your own work. Any reviews of these weaps on the PTR would be completely anecdotal since anything that delivers damage numbers was screwed by the 2.4 combat log re-write. Anecdotes aren't evidence and are viewed very sceptically in general on EJ, especially in the Class Mechanics forums.
(Sorry for the backseat moderation guys.)
Last edited by Hattori Hanzo : 04/03/08 at 5:46 PM.
Reason: Less XI
Hey guys,
i always thought that the Band of the Eternal Champion is the 2nd best Ring ingame before Sunwell.
Thats what Shadowpanther for example showed for the last few weeks/months...
Today i noticed that they put it down on the list, and now its worse than Signet of Primal Wrath or Ring of Deceitful Intent.
Did they nerv the proc or something ? Or did they just calculate it wrong ?
Hey guys,
i always thought that the Band of the Eternal Champion is the 2nd best Ring ingame before Sunwell.
Thats what Shadowpanther for example showed for the last few weeks/months...
Today i noticed that they put it down on the list, and now its worse than Signet of Primal Wrath or Ring of Deceitful Intent.
Did they nerv the proc or something ? Or did they just calculate it wrong ?
The crossbow comes in behind Blade of Life's Inevitability, at least for me; it's DPS is comparable, and it loses the stamina. And the Thori'dal thing has been mentioned, as any rogue that takes it over a hunter deserves to be shot. In a couple months, when your hunters have it, it's worth thinking about picking one up - but for the moment, it may be best in slot but not in a way that's actually useful.
I got a question for you Aldriana about [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] since you've mentioned that both fists are capable of higher dps than Blade of Infamy but as far as i can see gladiator's one is not and difference between Blade of Infamy and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] is nearly none. The advantage of weapon EP is reduced by lack of 4 points in Vile Poisons. So if i'm correct the right order should be badge reward fist -> blade of infamy -> s3 fist.
Hey guys,
i always thought that the Band of the Eternal Champion is the 2nd best Ring ingame before Sunwell.
Thats what Shadowpanther for example showed for the last few weeks/months...
Today i noticed that they put it down on the list, and now its worse than Signet of Primal Wrath or Ring of Deceitful Intent.
Did they nerv the proc or something ? Or did they just calculate it wrong ?
Shadowpanther has been wrong for months. The Illidan ring, the Ring of Deceitful Intent and Primal Wrath have long been better.
The proc hasn't been changed, just the accuracy of the chart.
To be fair, using the EP values in the first post, the crossbow wins by a small amount at all three tier levels if you don't have +10 hit gems. But we're talking 1-5 EP in any case--not worth 150 badges if you have/will get the Blade.
To be fair, using the EP values in the first post, the crossbow wins by a small amount at all three tier levels if you don't have +10 hit gems. But we're talking 1-5 EP in any case--not worth 150 badges if you have/will get the Blade.
Yes, with my current gearset I estimated it would have to have a 1.3 PPM to be a sidegrade from my current gear. At >5 PPM it's an upgrade, so I'm going to use them (after I get them enchanted) until the Heroic badge vendor is stocked on Feathermoon.
I've reopened the WWS if anyone else wants to take a look. This includes grinding the mana wyrms in BEM for the SSO daily, and contains the previously mentioned bandaging etc.
I completely misunderstood PPM mechanics - my WWS proc rates for [Claw of Molten Fury] and [Fist of Molten Fury] were all over the place. The only way to get an accurate baseline proc rate for spreadsheeting purposes will be to remove all haste gear and autoattack something for a few hours.
If anyone thinks that would be useful (IE dontmindme or Aldriana) I'll try sneaking through Dire Maul and wailing on those ghosts this weekend.
Unfortunately I am able to spare relatively little time for WoW so I prefer to use my playtime on things that will improve my raid outcomes.
04/03/08, 12:46 PM
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