Heya folks,

I've been searching the site for the past week or so as there's something that's been picking my interest. I've been working on a spreadsheet of my own, not cause the given ones are here are bad or anything, but cause I feel a need to understand it properly myself. However the thing I keep running into it that my calculations for To Hit come out way below the ones given here. I tried looking it up in the spreadsheets, but cant seem to get to the calcs given, hence my question here.

The problem is this. According to my understanding, every % of toHit makes your To Miss chance drop. Seeing as special attacks need a 9% to make sure they hit (not counting dodge), anything above 9% is purely focused on your white dps. Now assuming your white dps makes up for about 60% of your total dps, one could be tricked into saying that 1% hit increases your dps by a flat .6%. However seeing as the attack table consists of Glancing Blows and Critical Strikes as well, this would be wrong. in fact, Assuming 5% miss, 5% dodge and 30% crit, you're actual normal hits would be around 35% meaning the percentile increase of toHit of your white dps should be more around .21%.

Now you can probably see my base problem. Even if you consider procs from Combat potency, Sword spec and Windfury, this will not make up for the immense difference between .21% from to Hit and say the immense increase you'd get from Weapon Expertise (which ups your yellow dps as well) which probably balances around a full 1% excluding procs. Can someone show me where I'm going wrong here? Why is ToHit scaled so closely to WE on the main page on this thread and in the most spreadsheets I see?

Thanks in advance.
A confused rogue

So, first thing is, I think you're misinterpreting the hit table. For the sake of argument, lets say that your usual hit table is something like:

24% glance
30% crit
4% dodge
7% miss
35% hit

Then if you gain 1% hit, it instead becomes:

24% glance
30% crit
4% dodge
6% miss
36% hit

Thus, your expected damage for a hit goes from

to

which is an increase of about .9% to 60% of your damage, or a raw increase of around .54%, not .21%.

The rest of it is made up by procs; Windfury, for instance, scales quadratically with hit, so if you run with a shaman, the value of hit is increased. Combat potency increases the value of haste. All procs (DST, Mongoose, Poison, etc.) increase the value of hit. And so on.

To be honest, I was surprised by just how good hit was too when I first made my spreadsheet. But after a year of beating on the numbers and raiding to see the results, I'm pretty convinced that hit really is that good.

Aye, gotcha. Made a silly thinking mistake there when asking my question. My sheet actually shows me the exact same number so couldnt agree more. Thing is though, with that calculation it shows that crit would actually be of a higher value to your dps (1,06% on pure white dps). Expertise would stay the same (but wins in the end due to yellow damage). So basically +hit wins mostly on the procs then?

I havent picked up Windfury yet in my sheet, but I see I should at least to get a good solid idea. I have taken Combat Potency and Sword Spec in it though and cant say I see an extremely large increase when I add more +hit but maybe this will change when I hammer in WF I'll come back when I have wf calculated properly.

1% crit might very likely be worth more than 1% hit, but it takes 14*82/52 crit rating for 1% compared to 10*82/52 hit rating to 1%. (The 82/52 is the rating conversion from level 60 to 70). So it takes 1.4 times the amount of crit rating for the same % gain.

That, and the fact that +hit is more cheaply itemized. 1% hit and 1% crit in general, provide roughly equal dps returns, but 1% takes 6 fewer rating points, and thus, 6 points less item budget, while still coming in increments of 8 or 10 from gems. Combine that with it's effect on procs, and yea, +hit is huge.

K, windfury put in now. I can see the increase to hit sliding in. Decided to put up full raid buffs as well as I was putting in wf. Good stuff and getting closer to the stats given on the main page here, so feels like its making more sense now My agi is still coming out higher than my +hit though, but I havent taken procs into account yet though. I'm a little surprised to see how much influence outside buffs bring to rogue dps though. I mean I know we're basically always in need of more buffs, but to see base dps (after armor red.) go from 1k to 1.5k after raid buffs is just nuts. Interesting to finally make a 'full' calculation though, gives a good insight into one's dps.

As for the rating points, yeah +hit is 'cheaper'. However, I'm more or less trying to get a basic stats per point. So to get a clear view how much does my dps go up per rating point. Nice to have a personal points system based on my current gear for Lootrank and the likes.

This post is classified as DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.

My first post: http://elitistjerks.com/670402-post1856.html

Aldriana's Conclusions: http://elitistjerks.com/671291-post1866.html

My second post: http://elitistjerks.com/671815-post1880.html

My third post: http://elitistjerks.com/680282-post1971.html

Since my first post, my dps is fairly well increased, I always suggest to any class to take a look at Elitist Jerks (especially to raid mates and rogues), I got some few changes into my equip (+15 agi on hands rather than +26 AP and new Spaulders from the last boss of MT Hero) and still want to compare my dps to yours. Even spreedsheet says that I would increase my dps respeccing Combat Sword, but I still can't understand why the other two rogues that are raiding with me (which are both 20/41/0 Combat Sword) can't still beat me in most encounters (and so for all dps that are raiding with me). Are my PvP items that better than their PvE ones? To check my and thier armory look for:

Indidh, EU Server Hakkar, I Due Dragoni (raid equip includes Boots of Utter Darkness and Bladefist's Breadth trinket)
Wighy, EU Server Hakkar, I Due Dragoni
Aleris, EU Server Hakkar, Neogenesis

The comparison is usually on TK and SSC bosses like Lurker and Void. We're not doing Grull anymore (we only raid three times for a total of 10-11 hours a week).

In your past answears I must have missed some staments about WWS. May it help comparing my dps to yours? If it can help, may you tell me more about it, please? At the moment, I'm building up some numbers taking screenshoots of various Detail Windows from Recount (for single bosses, not overall). Can I link some screens with Imageshack on this forum? If you prefer, I can collect the numbers you need during the next raids.

An example from the last encounter with The Lurker (top three):

Elaerith 528246, 1124,1 dps, 9,6% (warlock destruction/affliction)
Indidh 506909, 756,9 dps, 9,2% (me)
Aleris 504577, 773,2 dps, 9,2% (combat sword)
Wighy died before the end of the encounter (combat sword)

Is my dps higher than what you expected or it is just low the dps of all the other raid members? In our party there were a dudu feral, a marksmanship hunter and all of the three rogues of the raid (including me).

More details about my dps (I also have the Detail Windows for Hemo, Melee, Eviscerate and Energy Gained):

Melee 214365, 42,3%
Hemorrage 120264, 33,6% (34,2% critical hits)
Rupture 57949, 11.4%
Deadly Poison 26912, 5,3%
Istant Poison 14186, 2,8%
Eviscerate 12278, 2,4%
Throw 8526, 1,7%
Garrote 1757, 0,3%

The most interesting thing is the Energy Gained. I found out that, if you add all the energy I save with Hemorrage (5 energy per hit and crit, not dodges and parries) to the Energy Gained, I gain more energy then a Combat Sword rogue with Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes. I gained 1175 energy from Relentless Strikes and saved 940 energy from Hemorrage, against the 1110 energy gained from Combat Potency and the 800 energy gained from Relentless Strikes by Aleris. During this encounter I dind't get any dodge or parry on finishers (in that case I would have gain energy from Quick Recovery).

I'll try to give you the information you will require as soon as possible. Thank you.

Well, I can tell you that for my first lurker kill with nothing but Karazhan gear, I scored 900 DPS.

Your combat rogues are doing something wrong if they're that low - you mentioned [Boots of Utter Darkness] and [Bladefist's Breadth], both of which are inferior to other, easy to get alternatives (notably: [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] or [Item not found!], and [Bloodlust Brooch] or [Abacus of Violent Odds] or [Hourglass of the Unraveller]).

What's your melee group composition? If you have an enhancement shaman and DPS warrior at least, you should be doing much more DPS. What I'd suggest you try is to run a combat swords build for a raid, play it like it's supposed to be played, and see what you get.

A WWS would help us to see what skills are being used and offers many tools for a more comprehensive breakdown.

Aleris is using a 1.6 speed main hand ([Blazefury]). His instant attack DPS is crippled because the damage range on that thing is completely terrible. He needs an actual main hand. All of you have a bit too much PvP gear for my liking, but I'm not going to do a full audit. Suffice it to say that comparing yourself against other rogues in your raid group simply isn't sufficient, because you cannot know if they are performing at the same level as you (for better or worse), nor whether they even know what they're doing (in your case, it looks like they don't).

Short answer for you is this: your spec is inferior. We know it, and the only reason you don't know it is because you seem to be a little bit stubborn about it. That's fine, no one can force you to play a particular way, but you're simply not going to get the same DPS as 30/0/31 that you will as 20/41/0. Look at it this way: Seal Fate provides a very similar effect to Combat Potency, which is to enable better cycles (i.e. more CP per time, therefore more finishers). Therefore, a 30/0/31 build is very similar to a 0/40/21 build, for all intents and purposes. The difference is that Seal Fate simply provides more combo points per time, whereas Combat Potency provides more energy, which converts into both extra damage and extra combo points. Thus, 30/0/31 will most likely be inferior to 0/40/21 (especially given the other DPS talents lost). At the same time, we have very accurately modeled the DPS of 0/40/21, and we know that it's inferior to 11/28/22, which in turn is inferior to 20/41/0. Thus, you can see that 30/0/31 will most certainly be inferior to 20/41/0.

Vula I'd be interested in seeing your opinion on my spec based on your thoughts that potentcy > SF.

I tried switching to potency a while back but thought that it lowered my DPS-please note that I am just beginning to get into theory crafting and actually doing the math.

The posts on this board have been mind blowing and I'm already incredibly excited to get home (visitng a friend atm) and reenchant my gloves and resocket a few gems.

No doubt it is inferior, even spreedsheet says that if I change spec (with the same identical equip, but never considering the Hemo Debuff). I would like to see what's the real difference in dps and total damage made by an experienced combat sword rogue on a raid boss (possibly with the same level of itemization). As mentioned before, in this encounter there was just a feral druid and a marksmanship hunter in the party (we have only one shaman in our guild and he is resto). I've always been playing this spec, I like to play in PvP and consider it a nice trade off between PvE and PvP. Last, but not least, I like to be different and play my own way (and for the same reason I don't like to see any other rogue with my same spec).

Maybe I'm just a good player with the wrong spec.

I'm working out to compare the different specs that you mentioned before, but it is not that simple. Hemo + Seal Fate is really not like Hemo + Combat Potency... you're missing all the assassination talents that usually are in every PvE spec. Relentless Strikes really makes the difference in a Seal Fate build. Spreedsheet says that Seal Fate + Hemo is better than Combat Potency + Hemo, but still worse than the Three Spec Build and then than Combat Sword. The energy gained from Relentless Strikes is lower than a Combat Potency build, but allows so save energy with Hemo, like the Seal Fate + Hemo Build. What really makes the difference is Improved SnD and Dual Wield Specialization (energy gained, extra hemos and extra finishers can't replace these two talents). Combat Potency makes the difference against the Three Spec Build.

It is the best belt til Sunwell T6 one. After that it's kinda just a personal preference on how much that's worth to you. Guess you can download a spreadsheet, think only the DPS Spreadsheet has that trinket in it currently. Determine how much of an upgrade the belt is, maybe what combo of trinkets you got that would be better suited with that belt. Decide how much that's worth to you. Maybe even plug your other rogue's gear into the spreadsheet and see how much of an upgrade it is for them. Decide if it's worth taking it over them or not.

You describe Hemo as "saving" you 5 energy compared to Sinister Strike, but this is a flawed perspective because these two attacks do not do the same amount of damage. In fact, a fully talented Sinister Strike (i.e. with Aggression and Surprise Attacks) will do better damage per energy than Hemo will. Yes, faster combo point generation is a good thing, but if you deal less damage to acquire those combo points, then you've basically just completely canceled out any benefit you were trying to gain by doing so.

Regardless, you are bringing in anecdotal evidence again, which simply isn't a valid way to compare two specs. And the difference in damage is a lot bigger than you want to admit.

Hey, I was wondering if anyone could offer me any insight as to a dilema I have been pondering recently. I am currently getting to the progress stage that I am going to be replacing my T4 set 2 bonus very soon but I'm not sure exactly what piece of gear would be worth loosing the 2 set bonus for.

Armoury Link

As you can see I'm using the T4 chest and head and I'm having a hard time giving them up. Can anyone suggest to me any helms of chest they think is worth giving up the bonus for? I am thinking the new badge reward chest is going to seal the deal but does anyone else have any other suggestions?

the chest from ssc is amazing and if you want to replace the head go the one off of za is pretty nice

Yea the badge reward chest will probably last in til BT/Hyjal. As for helms, not much beyond the T4/T5/T6 path upgrade cept the Illidan helm. Unless you take up Eng which ranks around T5 for the 1st helm, T6ish for the 2nd one. I think the S3 arena helm ranks up there near T5ish as well.

Ehm...maybe a newb question, but if "+hit" reduces the chances u miss, when u hit "hit cap" why would ya still need the expertise? Can a boss still dodge/parry ya when u are "hit cap"-ed? Cos i'm freaking annoyed about how insistently ppl are running MgT for that freaking trinket.Btw, i'm hit cap-ed.

Being dodged and you missing are two completly different things, there for you need diffrent stats to counter each one.

A "miss" is not the same as a "dodge" or "parry". Hit gear reduces the chance of you seeing a miss, whereas expertise gear will reduce the chance that the target dodges or parries.

So yes, a boss can still dodge or parry when you are hit capped because hit does nothing at all to negate dodges and parries.

Two questions for you guys...


Can instant poison crit?


Does poison damage benefit from the murder talent?

Yes and it should.

Instant poison can crit, but only if your spell crit chance is greater than zero. Against any mob/player at or above level 70, your spell crit should be 0% so it won't ever crit, except if you have for example the Moonkin aura. Also, when attacking targets below your level, you gain a small amount of spell crit because their defense is lower than your weapon skill, so it's possible to crit against mobs below level 70 even if you have 0% spell crit chance.

And yes, poisons benefit from Murder.