You're really tempting me... I've kept some nice combat gear like Violet Signet Exalted, Abacus of Violet Odds and some nice +hit items. I'm sure I wouldn't resocket anything, cos I still love to play 31/0/30, but I'm just that curious to burst my dps far over all the other raid members to show them what a rogue is capable of. Before respeccing I'd like to know some simple things about Combat Sword spec.

Do Sword Specialization talents procs from off hand hits? Our class leader says it doesn't.

I'm using a sword in my main hand and a dagger in my off hand. Should I spend 5/5 points in Sword Specialization? Should I spend 5/5 points in dagger specialization as well?

Assuming I can choose between two weapons with the same amount of dps and that I'm specced Combat Sword, is a faster off hand weapon (a dagger 1.4) worth not using a sword (which is 1.5) due to the increase in Combat Potency procs?

Finally, could you reming me the best cycle to be used with a Combat Sword spec, please?

Thank you.

P.S.
I was forgot! Yes, Istant Poison can crit. I didn't reset Recount for quite a long time and I've see I've critted once. It was a 0,1% of all the Istant Poison damage.

1. Sword-spec can proc from any weapon hand that is holding a sword.
2. You don't use a dagger with sword-spec.
3. Use the sheets available in the OP to determine the optimal cycle for your gear.

Yes. Your class leader is wrong. In fact, this is kinda the whole point of sword specialization- your very fast OH sword procs the specialization, and you get a free MH hit as a result.

Follow the instructions in the first post in regards to weapon selection, and spec accordingly. Get the best MH you can get, and specialize accordingly. If you can get a fast OH sword, make sure to get sword spec. If the best MH you can get is a mace or fist, and you can get a fast OH sword, spec both. combat dagger/sword is just weird.

Once again, this is discussed in depth in the first post. Short version: use the fastest OH you can get your hands on. If the fastest OH you can get your hands on happens to be a sword, make sure your build has sword specialization in it.

The spreadsheet will give you a detailed rotation based on your *exact* gear and spec. A ton of work went into that spreadsheet so that you can answer this question yourself.

This is not exactly correct. If it were, we'd all be using daggers because they come in a 1.3 and 1.4 variety far more often than swords, fists or maces.

Rather, you should use the BEST (not fastest) weapon of a 'fast' speed that you can get for your offhand. "fast" can be defined as 1.5 or faster. Weapon speed beyond 1.5 is valuable, but often not as valuable as superior DPS, superior stats, or a superior weapon class, (i.e. swords being better than just about anything to such a degree that they can often outclass significantly higher level pieces of other types).

That's not true. If you have access to a 1.4-speed dagger and a 1.5-speed sword of approximately the same DPS, the sword will virtually always be quite a bit better. If your best offhand dagger is much better than your best offhand sword, then sure, you should use it -- but only until you can upgrade to a sword.

I've got a new tidbit about this in the forthcoming TTT version of this post, but suffice it to say for now that you can assign offhand swords a 10 weapon DPS boost over other weapon types (similar to what the post already recommends you do for weapon speed), provided that your main hand weapon isn't a dagger.

I felt the set bonus section was a bit unnecessary, since it's sort of obvious which set bonuses are good and which aren't. Additionally, I didn't want to encourage people to unnecessarily hang onto inferior pieces just because a set bonus was considered to be good. Far too many people hold onto T4 2pc far longer than is really prudent. T4 2pc is a nice bonus, but in general pretty highly overrated. Consult the Gear Spreadsheet for an EP valuation of the bonus to know exactly what you're giving up.

Looking for advice on rotation (yes I have spreadsheet) and skill usage to increase dps on boss fights. Any suggestions?
Currently I am using 3s/5r as my rotation. Waiting until most of my procs are up (because I don't use any /use trinkets (also using exalted neck from SSO faction Aldor type.) And using BF in one set of procs and then AR in another when said buffs are up again.

Should I use Haste Potions with BF? or save for AR?

Anything else I am missing guys?

Your cycle depends on your gear and buffs, so it's kind of hard to reply to this question with you not giving an Armory link :p
Anyway, I'd say rely on the spreadsheet, if you can substain the recommended cycle.

You should note how buffs stack. Haste Potions and Blade Flurry are both Haste buffs and thus stack additive, meaning that 1 Haste will always provide the same amount of DPS increase no matter how much Haste is already stacked up. In terms of stacking, it does not matter if you use Haste Potions and BF at the same time or not. (Though you're very likely to do so since they both have a 2 minute cooldown).
On the other hand Haste and Attack Power, for example, stack multiplicatively, meaning that you want to use both buffs at the same time.

Generally speaking, it's a good idea to use AR/BF etc. once Sunder Armor has been applied five times, CoR/FF are up and you're not threat capped. If waiting for procs is an option depends, on the circumstances of the fight.
On an imaginary encounter which lasts exactley 6 minutes and 15 seconds, you try to throw Haste Pots and BF as soon as possible to be able to use them three times.
If you're fighting, say Felmyst, on the other hand (which stays on the ground for about a minute, then flies around for about two minutes), you can very well wait for a WSC proc to launch your cooldowns, since BF/Haste Potions are going to be ready anyway once she lands.
Hope this helps a bit.

This is false. Since Blade Flurry is a percentage-based haste effect, and not a haste rating effect, it *IS* beneficial to stack it with other haste effects. While two haste rating effects are additive with one another, haste rating effects and percentage-based haste effects are still in fact multiplicative with one another. Therefore, it is definitely in your interest to use Blade Flurry at the same time as haste pots, especially considering it's easy to do since they have the same cooldown. It is also wise to time them to be used with Heroism/Bloodlust and also with Drums of Battle.

On the other hand, Adrenaline Rush is (mostly) orthogonal to haste effects, so you can time AR to be used at a different time. However, there are some second-order benefits by stacking them, such as AR increasing your chance to proc Mongoose for the duration, which would complement the haste effects. However, if you get more energy than you can consume (due to very high Combat Potency proc rate while stacking the haste effects), then it's obviously better to separate the two.

Are you sure about the percentage based increase with BF? I was under the impression that BF on level 70 works like 315 Haste Rating, but I've never done any testing on this, so I might very well be wrong.

Edit: I just did some testing with a Haste Potion and BF and as it turns out I was wrong. I sincerely apologise for spreading misinformation.

Ok
I have 6/8 t6, with 307 hit rating unbuffed and 10 expertise from talents.

I have been using a rotation of 3s/5r and it works well, but i can't help notice since doing brutallus and really being able to focus on my dps that the up time of my SnD and Rupture relys heavily on how many relentless strikes procs i have coupled with mongoose procs and such.

The DPS spreadsheets suggest 4s/5r and it seems slightly more stable, but i was wondering if anyone has found a different cycle that can keep rupture up even more, as even with 4s/5r there is downtime of rupture of an average of 2-3 seconds.

Any input would be appreciated.

The thing to keep in mind is that Rupture is a relatively small part of your damage. Even if it's up absolutely all the time, it only accounts for about 6% of your total DPS at that gear level; thus, worrying about Rupture uptime, per se, doesn't tend to be a productive endeavor. Rupture is a contributer to damage, and unlike, say, SnD, it's not such a large contributor that the optimal cycle must have 100% uptime. It adds damage, other things add damage, and it's just a question of what adds the most damage; and conventional wisdom for most rogues at and around your gear level is that 4s5r is the way to go.

Ok. I was asking so becouse of an error I made changing from Gladiator Shiv to Gladiator Shanker instead of Gladiator Quickblade. I'm also thinking about which weapon would suit better when upgrading to Veangeful Gladiator Weapons (can't get over 1837 rating -_-).

I didn't know that the cicle was actually calcurated buy the spreedsheet... I just thought it was static from spec to spec. With my combat gear and one more +hit gem, it says I should use 1s/5r. In the AEP Agility is still better then Hit Rating, but worse than Expertise. I'll wait untile I can get the Shard of Contempt.

One thing to remember about 3s/5r or 4s/5r is this: the spreadsheets are using an averaged energy model. 4s/5r, for example, will have your "4s" costing 5 energy, which it does (on average). The problem is that real cycles aren't average. 4/5 of the time, you get 25 energy back, 1/5 of the time, you get none. Thus, 4 pt. SnD costs 0 energy 4/5 of the time and 25 energy 1/5 of the time.

If you are running a very tight cycle (always refreshing SnD right at the very last second), then 1/5 of the time you'll lose out on 25 energy and it's likely that SnD will drop. Thus, while the average might point you to 3s/5r or 4s/5r, you may get better mileage out of 5s/5r because it is better able to mitigate those unlucky situations. (At 5s/5r, you are guaranteed to recover your 25 energy).

In general, I tend to loosen my cycle 1 CP from whatever is recommended, and if I need to use Eviscerate for any reason (quite rare anymore) I loosen it one more point. IE, I have 2pT4 and a recommended cycle of 1s/5r, but I run 2s/5r just to be safe. Sometimes the safety factor makes up for the fact that averages aren't average in real life. Just something to think about.

On the one hand it's true that the sheet uses averaged energy, which complicates cycles somewhat; on the other hand, it's also true that it doesn't have any sort of model for energy queuing, which balances that out to some effect. Now, it's certainly true that you can't maintain a cycle *shorter* than what the spreadsheet says, and even a cycle just slightly above the theoretical cycle may be quite challenging... but I think going up a full cycle point might be a bit overkill. In terms of particulars: if the spreadsheet recommends 3.1, you certainly can't do 3; and even if it recommends 2.8, 3 will be pretty hard and thus not necessarily desirable. But if it recommends 3.3, you certainly should be able to do 4 without a problem. I'd say a good rule of thumb would be to add half a point to the cycle, and then round up - so 2.7 becomes 2.7+.5 = 3.2, rounds to 4, and 3.3 becomes 3.3 + .5 = 3.8, which also rounds to 4.

The slight exception to this is 2/5 T4 cycles; 1s5r is actually not a particularly tight cycle with the set bonus, so my inclination would be to try 1s5r initially and only go up if you notice regular issues with SnD dropping.

Of course, it should also be remembered that as gear improves, the DPS loss from lengthening your cycle drops; for most T6 rogues, the difference between 4s5r and 5s5r is on the order of .1% of your total DPS, and, as such, is not a large concern under most circumstances. Thus, lengthening for a bit more ease of use/safety margin is not a horrible decision.

This has been discussed in the thread a number of times, but the MH is the hand that gains the extra attack, regardless of which hand triggered sword spec. I'm not sure if this actually causes the mainhand to hit more than the offhand, but the generally accepted poison setup is IP/DP without windfury, or just DP offhand with windfury.

As for the badge gear, I wouldn't say that Fist/Sword is obsolete, it's just both badge Fists are better right now unless you have a T6+ sword. Somewhere earlier in the thread (or maybe one of the spreadsheet threads) someone laid out the cases in which both badge fists would be superior to badge fist MH and sword OH (or sword MH/sword OH), but I don't remember where it is. You may be able to find it via search though.

Main hand.

5s/5r is basically the safest route to ever take. Check a spreadsheet to tell you which one you should do based on the exact gear you have.

A difference in quality in dps of weapons can make up for the drop in dps from the "lower" weapon spec. So if you don't have access to S2/S3/BT/Hyjal weapons (whatever your cross over point is), badge fists are superior even in offhand. The "fist/sword spec" statements only apply if they're weapons of equal dps value.

1. Sword spec has been proven to generate extra main hand procs, which is a large part of why specs like Fist/Sword work.

2. Even with sword spec you'll want WF MH/Deadly OH

3. CP, obviously, scales with hit. I found personally on my rogue that I could go from a 5/5 rotation to a 1/5 rotation as soon as I got 2/5 T4 (As well as a bit more hit, but the T4 is what really drives that)

4. You'll have to use spreadsheets as you said, but general consensus is that Dual Vanir's is beating most combinations (Except for Glaives and S3, if I recall?) unless you're a human, in which case at least for me I'm getting results of ToA/ S2 >Vanir/S2 > Dual Vanir. At a T4 level the fists are probably your best bet, unless you have access to s3, but please don't take my word for it.

I get the same results as a Night Elf. Even Vanir/Akil'zon > Dual Vanir. Seems S1/Latro's/Kael Sword isn't enough for sword spec to beat it, but maybe humans with em can.

As a long time reader of this thread, I used the EP values to determine some of my gear choices, including making a spreadsheet that did the totals for me...ya know, the basics.

In doing that I noticed recently that the EP values as of late have changed. This is what you have now...
Tier 6 EP | 16/41+4
Strength | 1.00 |
Agility | 2.16 | +13%
Atk. Power | 1.00 |
Hit Rating | 2.40 | +8%
Crit Rating | 1.67 | +6%
Exp. Rating* | 2.74 | +7%
Haste Rating | 2.16 | -2%
Armor Pen. | 0.38 | +19%
Meta Gem | 99.94

And this is what it was a while back
Tier 6 EP | 16/41+4 |
Strength | 1.00 |
Agility | 1.90 |
Atk. Power | 1.00 |
Hit Rating | 2.23 |
Crit Rating | 1.57 |
Exp. Rating* | 2.56 |
Haste Rating | 2.19 |
Armor Pen. | 0.32 |
Meta Gem | 102.17 |

The biggest change seems to be Armor Pen and Agility became a lot more valuable, and haste was devalued respectivly. I searched the thread but was unable to find the logic as to why this is so. Any insight would be appreciated.

*Most interestingly the newer numbers make the LW chest worse than the drop chest in Sunwell.

Quick question about hit rating. And forgive me if this is very noobish but I don't even play a rogue, but I still try to stay up to date on other classes theorycrafting a little. Trying to get up to speed on rogue.

Anyway I know there's a lot of talk about reaching the hit cap, and how it's very important to gem/gear for hit rating. I'm just very skeptical about this compared to something else like crit rating or attack power. let me just throw out some numbers, and maybe someone more versed with this can help me figure out if I'm missing something.

Let's compare a few scenarios, all assuming 5/5 precision.

150 hit rating > 9.5% chance to hit (86.5% chance to hit with main hand, 86.5% chance to hit with offhand)
250 hit rating > 15.9% chance to hit (92.8% chance to hit with main hand, 92.8% chance to hit with offhand)
350 hit rating > 22.2% chance to hit (99.2% chance to hit with main hand, 99.2% chance to hit with offhand)

Ignoring all instant attacks and just looking at dps from auto attacks, let's say your main hand is 91.9 DPS with a speed of 1.8, and your offhand is 87.5 DPS with a speed of 1.8 (using Malchazeen / Emerald Ripper as an example since they're easily accessible Kara daggers).

First situation: you're doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .865 = 155.18 DPS
Second situation: You're doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .928 = 166.48 DPS
Third situation: Your'e doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .992 = 177.96 DPS

Notice that from the first situation to the second, you realized a 7.28% DPS bonus, but going from the second to the third you realized only a 6.89% DPS bonus. So DPS gained from hit rating seems to suffer from diminishing returns, and as such it may not be beneficial to reach the cap, or even get close to the cap.

Anwyay, regarding DPS, going from the first to third situation you increased your DPS by about 14.6%. And this is only for auto attacks, your hit from instant attacks was capped long before the 350 hit rating mark, in fact it was already capped in the first case. So you get NO benefit to your special attacks from all this hit rating, and 14.6% benefit to your auto attacks.

Now, let's say that 200 hit rating came from gems. Assuming you're using all +8 hit gems that's 25 Rigid Dawnstones. If you had used Bright Living Rubies in every slot, you would have had +400 Attack Power, or if you had used Wicked Noble Topaz you would have had 100 crit rating (+4.39%) and 200 attack power. Furthermore, it would affect both instant and auto attacks.

I guess my question is how is it possible that a 14.6% increase ONLY to auto attacks outweights either +400 attack power to ALL attacks, or +4.39% crit and +200 attack power to ALL attacks?


Thanks