Just a note - Hydross is now poisonable in frost form, and is also no longer immune to rupture. Void Reaver is also ruptureable, though I can't remember if the poison change affected mechanicals.
1) Setting aside the ability of rogue to DPS, per say, a number of those fights additionally have components that make rogues advantageous to bring - usually for interrupts and/or wound poison. This boosts the utility of at least the first couple of rogues on FLK, Solarian, Kael, Reliquary, and Council.
2) Some of those fights the melee friendliness depends on your strategy. For instance, my guild has melee stay in on Rain of Fire, and doesn't need us in FR to heal through it; hence, we get 100% time on target with no silences against a squishy boss... so the rogues nearly always top the meter, usually by a fair margin. So for us, it's a very melee friendly fight. But in a guild with a different strategy, it's somewhat less so.
3) Fundamentally, very few fights in the expansion are particularly far either direction. Very few fights give melee a big advantage, but very few give melee a big disadvantage. There are somewhat more that lean a bit one way or the other, but almost none do so to the extent that you'd start pulling melee (or ranged) out of the raid unless you were going for a world-top-5 kill... and many, you wouldn't even do it then.
All in all, I don't think it's fair to say that BC expansion raid content has been particularly pro- or anti- melee; which one works better for your guild is generally more of a function of the relative quality of your melee versus ranged DPSers more than any fundamental limitation of the fight.
All in all, I don't think it's fair to say that BC expansion raid content has been particularly pro- or anti- melee; which one works better for your guild is generally more of a function of the relative quality of your melee versus ranged DPSers more than any fundamental limitation of the fight.
There was only 1 fight that we came across at the appropriate level that penalised melee which was Vashj.
Unless you have sufficient ranged dps to kill and kite the striders - the melee cannot help. I switched from a pretty much max geared rogue to my kara geared mage so we could get past Vashj. Of course, with a couple of kills under the belt, the gearing meant that it just didn't matter any more.
This isn't so much a "melee unfriendly" - it's a "favours more ranged dps". All the other points I agree 100% with.
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
Just a note - Hydross is now poisonable in frost form, and is also no longer immune to rupture. Void Reaver is also ruptureable, though I can't remember if the poison change affected mechanicals.
I remember my Romulo's Poison Vial proc (nature damage) damaging Hydross' frost form way back in June of last year. I have a feeling Deadly poison used to stack on (her?) too but I can't confirm it, sorry.
I remember my Romulo's Poison Vial proc (nature damage) damaging Hydross' frost form way back in June of last year. I have a feeling Deadly poison used to stack on (her?) too but I can't confirm it, sorry.
The proc from [Romulo's Poison Vial] is actually not categorized as poison damage, despite what you would expect from its name (and even the description). Therefore, mobs that are poison-immune but not nature-immune have always been susceptible to the proc from this trinket.
Generally speaking, stacking physical dps tends to increase the overall raid dps at the cost of more raid dmg.
This statement makes no sense.
Stacking physical damage-dealers increases raid DPS but decreases total raid damage? How does that work? Do you mean that fights just take less time, or what? In any case, the total raid damage for any successful boss fight is fixed - it's the amount of health that the boss has, period.
i've got a question about the expertise cap, i assume the op listed the rating needed to be capped. However, last night on illidan i got a fair few parries (Hamstring - WWS). Now, normally i wouldn't be worried about this but, i have both the shard of contempt and the belt of onehundred deaths, which *should* put me 4 rating above the cap.
so, can any one offer me an explanation to this?
Edit: i've just realised that the parry rate and dodge rate are different, hence why i'm getting parried and not dodged. if i'm correct does any one know the cap for removing parrys from the table?
You were probably attacking from in front of your target.
Edit for clarity - From WoWWiki:
DPS
Melee DPS also benefit from expertise. With sufficient expertise, melee classes can attack their target from the front without being dodged or parried (although facing restrictions, such as those on Backstab or Shred, still apply). However, it is possible to have enough expertise to prevent dodges, but not parries, and players with such expertise values should remain behind the target to prevent parried attacks from increasing the target's attack speed against the tank.
Expertise against Bosses
The dodge and parry chances for boss-mobs is currently disputed, but combat parses tend to point at around 6.5% dodge and as high as 12-15% parry.[citation needed] Assuming 6.5% dodge and 15% parry, a player would need 26 expertise (about 104 expertise rating) to negate a boss' dodge chance, and 60 expertise (roughly 236 expertise rating) to prevent parries.
To "cap" expertise against a raid boss, melee DPS need only concern themselves with the boss' dodge chance, provided that they attack from behind. This dictates a goal of 104 expertise rating, which is reasonably achievable given the gear added to the game in Patch 2.4. Tanks, however, attack from the front, and need to worry about both dodge and parry. Acquiring sufficient expertise to prevent parries is impossible as of Patch 2.4, even considering talents.
Hamstring removing parries is not very useful, since I can't rly think of any fight where it's reasonable for melee to attack from frontside(maybe illidans elementals sometimes).
Pewsey, our guild used melee on the nagas on Vashj, then we also helped out with the elementals that got all the way up. And at the last phase at least rogues can do sick dmg.
Hamstring removing parries is not very useful, since I can't rly think of any fight where it's reasonable for melee to attack from frontside(maybe illidans elementals sometimes).
Pewsey, our guild used melee on the nagas on Vashj, then we also helped out with the elementals that got all the way up. And at the last phase at least rogues can do sick dmg.
it's not the how usefull removing parries are, it's the reason they are still there. However i think i understand why, it dawned on me shortly after posting. Now i'm interested in what the cap for parries are, since it's clearly different to the cap for dodge.
The proc from [Romulo's Poison Vial] is actually not categorized as poison damage, despite what you would expect from its name (and even the description). Therefore, mobs that are poison-immune but not nature-immune have always been susceptible to the proc from this trinket.
Says nature there, what makes you say it's not nature damage?
If you'll note, he never denied that it was nature damage; he said it wasn't a poison effect. Which is why his comment about poison-immune non-nature immune bosses makes sense.
Hamstring removing parries is not very useful, since I can't rly think of any fight where it's reasonable for melee to attack from frontside(maybe illidans elementals sometimes).
Pewsey, our guild used melee on the nagas on Vashj, then we also helped out with the elementals that got all the way up. And at the last phase at least rogues can do sick dmg.
Thanks Carnivori - we're a bit past it now. We did the same. It's just that at the gear level we got to Vashj with, and our normal raid compositions, we were unable to kill the striders in time.
No amount of melee was going to help us. The Vashj encounter isn't "bad", but it wasn't a good fit for our guild, which has been more melee heavy than ranged heavy.
Pewsey has heard about tact and discretion, but tends to regard them much as children view vegetables.
There are only two kinds of MMOs: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody plays. (inspired by Bjarne Stroustrup)
Hello, I'm obviously one of the new guys around here. I've been using both spreadsheets to figure out gear and such, but I keep seeing people throw around WWS reports of simply astounding dps. Given, most of the time they are in 4/8 T6 armor, and all the fun stuff, but I'm starting to get paranoid that I'm simply missing something terribly, terribly obvious.
Group and raid buffs. Rogues need battleshout and a shaman to begin with, or we're more like glorified interrupters then anything else. Our dps depends quite heavily on what kind of support we get, and the reports you see of rogues with very high dps numbers basically get them all(shout, sunder armour, wf, unleashed rage, blood frenzy, imp hunters mark, curse of recklessness, faeire fire, 1-4 bloodlusts). Don't forget that the better geared your raid is, fights will be shorter and everyone will have higher dps numbers.
Most of those buffs and debuffs should be available in one form or another(as they benefit all physical dps classes and tank threat), so there's no reason you shouldn't have at least one melee group with a dps warrior and (enhancement) shaman, then 1-3 rogues(or feral/ret/whatever). What spec adds the most depends more on how good the player is, not the class or spec. ie. having a good resto shaman spec into a mediocre enhancement shaman probably won't help your raid much.
Sure you can get away with taking 0 melee dps on basically ever fight in TBC, but your raid will be worse off. Similarily there are fights that you could do just fine with 0 caster dps.. but then how long would you have to wait for a piece of gear?
This is where I disagree. In TBC I would argue that there are very few fights that could not be easily done with 0 melee (excluding Tanks. Not counting them as melee).
Whereas I'm struggling to think of a fight that could easily be done with 0 ranged/casters.
As Rogues, we should and do top damage meters on most fights and are very useful for interrupts and poison stacking. But, if you seriously think about it, a raid can do without us. Groups that are set up to maximise our DPS, can be easily switched to maximise the DPS of all the casters/ranged players Therefore boosting their DPS to our level and probably beyond.
I would say it's to our credit and that of our healers, that we as Rogues do so well on fights that Blizzard seem intent on handicapping us more so than casters.
The flip side to this is, if most fights were made totally melee friendly, would it trivialise it? Having Rogues and Fury Warriors DPSing for 100% of the time with absolutely no concern for anything else might make everything a little too easy.
If you'll note, he never denied that it was nature damage; he said it wasn't a poison effect. Which is why his comment about poison-immune non-nature immune bosses makes sense.
Ah yes sorry I misread. Going over my logs I see that Hydross in both forms was immune to poisons (July raids) so my earlier observation was also incorrect.
Hey guys,
I just recently got a hold of a nice fist (mh). I know fist (mh) and sword (oh) holds it's own versus duel swords. My question is how does fist (mh) and dagger (oh) compare? I have a nice (oh) dagger I'd like to use and would be looking at a combat build for pve. Can this combo compete with comparable geared rogues using swords?
04/10/08, 7:49 PM
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