Roguecraft 101 - Page 98

Dontmindme · 02/12/08, 5:35 PM

The DPS listed by the spreadsheets is a theoretical average for a mythical fight where a Rogue can just stand in place behind a target and wail away. In practice, fights don't usually work that way. Any forced movement and you will not be matching the modeled numbers. Tidewalker, if you never get Graved, is the type of fight modeled by the spreadsheets.

So, generally speaking, it sounds like your DPS is consistent with the spreadsheets if you factor in lost DPS from having to move or checking up.

Zilikben · 02/13/08, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by ispen

Hello fellow rogues,

I have a few problems with my dps and I hope this is the right place to get some suggestions.

I don't want to give my armory link but I ll try to summarize my unbuffed stats:

3/4 t6, 319 Hit, 30% crit, 1970 AP, no expertise from gear, no haste from gear.

Main Hand: S3 Sword, Off Hand: Warglaive
Trinkets: Bloodlust Brouch ( Oh yeah, DST did not drop for 6 months) &Ashtongue talisman of lethality

In melee group we have Enhancement Shaman, Blood Craze Warrior, Feral Druid and 2 Rogues.
Curse of Recklessness, Expose Weakness on Boss, I use major agility pot, 20 hit food, haste pots almost every cooldown, drums of battle etc.

According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.

Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)

This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.

From a quick glance at your armory I can tell you that your gems are all wrong. replace the 5agi\5hit in your helm with a 10hit, replace the 5crit\7stam in your shoulders with 5agi\7stam, replace the 10ap\7stam in your chest with 5agi\7stam replace the other two with 10hit, put 10hit in your gloves, two 10hits in your belt, replace the 5crit\7stam in your boots with a 10hit. Basically, there is no reason to ever have 5crit\7stam gems in your gear. Obviously this is just scratching the surface but you may as well at least have your gear gemed right.

• Aldriana · 02/13/08, 2:07 PM

Originally Posted by Zilikben

From a quick glance at your armory I can tell you that your gems are all wrong. replace the 5agi\5hit in your helm with a 10hit, replace the 5crit\7stam in your shoulders with 5agi\7stam, replace the 10ap\7stam in your chest with 5agi\7stam replace the other two with 10hit, put 10hit in your gloves, two 10hits in your belt, replace the 5crit\7stam in your boots with a 10hit. Basically, there is no reason to ever have 5crit\7stam gems in your gear. Obviously this is just scratching the surface but you may as well at least have your gear gemed right.

5agi/5hit vs 10hit is sort of a matter of personal preference; thus, while I agree that replacing 5crit/7sta with 5agi/7sta, the overall trend of socketing everything with 10 hit is not necessarily something you need to follow. In particular, I wouldn't waste my time with regemming Cursed Vision, Slayer's Gloves, or Slayer's Legs. Fundamentally, the only places where your socketing is notably questionable is the chest (which isn't best in slot even pre-2.4, so I wouldn't change it - I'd just make sure to gem Slayer's with a Shifting and 2 Glinting/Rigids when you get it), and shoulders/boots where you should indeed use shifting for the blue slots.

It also should be kept in mind that the grand total damage increase from making those gem changes will be less than 10 DPS. Probably more like 5. So I doubt I'd even bother regemming anything, as I suspect your guild - if it's anything like my guild - isn't too fond of the idea of burning epic gems for a 1 DPS increase each. It's more something to keep in mind going forward.

Paladron · 02/13/08, 2:18 PM

I know this post is devoted to PVE spec rogues, however I have built an alt Rogue which I am having a blast playing. I leveled up Blacksmithing and I have Dragonmaw and the BoneCracker. I was wondering if anyone new of a guide for building a mace spec'ed rogue. A good talent point layout. PVP combat combinations. Tricks and tactics.. Stuff like that. I wouldn't mind trying swords, but I have invested way to much time and money into Blacksmith for the damn mace. Is mace spec ideal for pvp? If I want to keep someone in stun lock should I focus on hit rating and crit? Any information regarding building a PVP rogue would be greatly appreacited.

Here is a link to my armory page, remember this is just an alt and for fun..

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Slashartist

• Aldriana · 02/13/08, 2:43 PM

For PvP advice, I would recommend visiting this thread: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice

For optimizing PvE dps, I'd try the spreadsheets.

Hershey · 02/13/08, 3:29 PM

As I was reading I saw the gem socketing obviously was Hit rating first but then it went for Agility and there were no +20 or +16AP gems or +24ap to gloves... is there any spreadsheets about how much better agility is? and is that only because it scales with things like BoK and the like

Ozzmar · 02/13/08, 3:39 PM

On the talents page of the spreadsheet, there's a button to calculate your AEP. AEP is basically how much each stat is worth relative to 1 point of Agility.

And yes, you're on the right track with your thinking. Agility is just a better investment for your item budget as it adds to crit, AP, etc and scales with BoK.

Cloak-SH · 02/13/08, 3:45 PM

Originally Posted by rampage01

I know this isn't probably the right place to ask but I don't know where else to get reliable information from. After two months of break I am thinking of raiding again and before I go back to Black Temple I would like to clarify something. I have been reading a lot of stuff about rogues vanishing out of Teron Gorefiend's shadow of death debuff while the spell is being casted. This apparently doesn't place the debuff on you or anyone else for one cycle. Is this true and if it is, is their any certain way to do it? I read this post where someone said if you vanish too early he places the debuff on someone else.

If anyone could provide any further information about this it will be appreciated.

Again not that it belongs here but...

This is a bad idea regardless of wether or not its true. Once a person gets thier mobs down they use thier ghost with the leftover time to go assist the next person. From the first ghost on it gets progressively easier.

If you break that chain you gain rdps on the boss but at the cost of additional chance on the mini-game of having a person fail utterly and wipe the raid due to constructs getting loose.

Aside: We use the cloak and neck for SR for teron, if you're trying to burn him down faster because people/tank are dropping due to oom healers id recommend adding SR before trying to vanish out of the debuff.

Rerox · 02/14/08, 9:09 AM

Originally Posted by Vulajin

Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:

Just wondering if the 6,5% dodge- and parry-chance of a boss can be backed up by hard data. I tend to accept the value but the main belief seems to be 5,6% due to "+3 levels".

Seeing the huge ammount of "expertise" coming with Patch 2.4 and Sunwell items it's quite a difference if you need 102 or 83 expertise rating to reach the cap.

Left · 02/14/08, 10:16 AM

Originally Posted by Rerox

Just wondering if the 6,5% dodge- and parry-chance of a boss can be backed up by hard data. I tend to accept the value but the main belief seems to be 5,6% due to "+3 levels".

Seeing the huge ammount of "expertise" coming with Patch 2.4 and Sunwell items it's quite a difference if you need 102 or 83 expertise rating to reach the cap.

It's mostly based on WWS parses. From WWS, observed dodge rates for bosses are in the 6.3-6.6% range, with parry being approximately double that (12.6-13.2%). Take a look at parses from the tank's perspective, as that gives the most accurate figures. (Also, remember to add in any percentage reduction that the tank's expertise is taking off.)

It's empirical, and basically appears to be a good bit about the 5.6% figure you would expect.

Rerox · 02/14/08, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Left

It's empirical, and basically appears to be a good bit about the 5.6% figure you would expect.

Empirical data is great, but it needs to be backed up by theoretical formula that can give a reason for the data.
So far I couldn't find any formula that could explain the +0.9% dodge/parry per level properly.

Cybelirrae · 02/14/08, 11:40 AM

Originally Posted by ispen

According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.

Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)

This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.

Also, you have to look at the rest of your raid's overall dps. If your guild kills gorefiend in 4.5 minutes your personal dps will be lower than if your guild kills gorefiend in 3 minutes, for example. That is partly because of our Adrenaline Rush cooldown. The faster your kills the higher your DPS will be as a general matter until you reach the 5 minute mark and then it sort of resets itself. Missing DST is obviously huge and when you get your MH warglaive your DPS will skyrocket. The 4 piece bonus is nice as well. Sounds like you are doing most things properly. As your raid gears up, your DPS will go up. Also, I prefer a 4 or 5 snd 5 rupture rotation when I am using ashtongue. I think in one of these threads aldriana showed that this was preferable.

Shaker · 02/14/08, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by Rerox

Empirical data is great, but it needs to be backed up by theoretical formula that can give a reason for the data.
So far I couldn't find any formula that could explain the +0.9% dodge/parry per level properly.

5% base + .5% chance per enemy level > player level seems to point at 6.5% being semi-accurate.

5% + .5(73-70) = 6.5%

Edit: Changed weaponskill to enemy level, as while enemy defense vs weaponskill is possible, it's abstractable by 'enemy level' and doesn't get into the wacky weaponskill debates. :P

• Aldriana · 02/14/08, 2:02 PM

Note that the .1 in Shaker's equation comes from the scaling of miss chance against higher-level mobs; while it's been well-established for *players* that the conversion is .04, it has been shown fairly conclusively that bosses have different scaling than players.

Now, the thing that's always bothered me about that particular formula is the fact that hit has the significant discontinuity when the defense difference surpasses 10, and as dodge does not it doesn't strike me as necessarily the case that the same scaling should apply. But as it has better agreement with observed data, it's the number we've been going with until someone finds a better one.

Dontmindme · 02/14/08, 2:22 PM

I also remember doing some testing vs. level 60 mobs and did not see any dodges or parries against them. Assuming 0.5% per level, that agrees with that number. Just like you get no dodges or parries vs 57 Servants.

The question is whether Parry is...
Level 70 10.0%
Level 71 11.0%
Level 72 12.0%
Level 73 13.0%

or whether it does something like hit did and is...
Level 70 5.0%
Level 71 5.5%
Level 72 6.0%
Level 73 13.0%