Gearman

The procs put both very close to each other in terms of DPS, with the Aldor version coming out slightly ahead because it'll scale better, though, by the time that it does pull ahead, you'll have access to better necks anyway. Worgen Claw isn't better, and if it somehow were, you could get a [Choker of Vile Intent] which is most definitely superior to Worgen Claw (but not better than the SSO exalted necks).

 

turbare

Thanks for the fast reply, but im still confused:
The question now is which of the two necks to use, the Might, or the Resolve one?

Or, to which of them are you reffering when you are saying Aldor/Scryer version?

From what i know the aldor/scryer diff consists on the proc, for the Might neck (holy damage for Aldor, arcane for Scryer) and for the Resolve (dodge ratingfor Aldor, expertise rating for Scryer), feel free to contradict me if im wrong.

And as im said above, i am Scryer, and asking which of the two would be better in terms of dps.
Also consider that the Might procs very rarely, while the Resolve procs very often, like twice a mob.

 

• Vulajin

The Resolve neck is worthless for a rogue, almost all of the expertise goes to waste unless you're soloing, in which case who really cares?

I whipped up a very rough model of the Might neck. Now, there's two comparisons to make here:

1) Comparing the Aldor proc against the Scryers proc -- this is possible without knowing the exact proc mechanics, as long as we know that there is an internal cooldown.
2) Comparing both versions to other necks -- this is not possible without knowing the exact proc mechanics, but we can roughly guess.

For comparison 1, as Sykt mentioned, the two procs are pretty comparable. The Aldor one is going to come out ahead, but not by terribly much. For comparison 2, we'll need some parses of the thing before we can be sure.

 

turbare

Ok, so, looking at my stats, you don't think i'll drop in dps using [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] instead of [Choker of Vile Intent]

From what i've read rogue hit cap is around 350, and i've always thought +hit > all. So what i really am worried about is that the lack of hit won't lower my overall damage output.

 

Gearman

I'm referring to [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might], the Resolve isn't worth it for a Rogue, even with a higher proc rate.

The proc on Might for Aldor is a +200 AP buff for 10 seconds, for Scryer, it's a 350-400 arcane damage strike, that can crit. Both are equivalent DPS whether you're Aldor or Scryer, but as I said earlier, by the time the Aldor version pulls ahead, better necks are available.

Comparing the two necks, going from Choker to Might, you:

Lose - 2 agility
Lose - 18 hit rating
Gain - 1 stamina
Gain - 22 attack power (only 20 if you include agility into it)
Gain - A ~1.2 ppm proc that does on average, 300 damage and can crit

If you have a hit rating hovering around 300 already, and a decent amount of expertise (which you should once you get a [Shard of Contempt]), then yes, the loss of hit rating is definitely worth it.

Just looked at your armory profile. Replace your [Core of Ar'kelos] with any of these and your hit rating should be fine (they should all be accessible to someone of your gear level) - [Icon of Unyielding Courage] [Romulo's Poison Vial] [Warp-Spring Coil]

 

turbare

So the conclusion for this would be?..
Thanks again for the quick answers.

 

◊ Shaker

Vul, just a note - I forget where the link is, but someone did some reasonably good testing, found it was a 45s internal cooldown, high chance to proc outside of cooldown, giving it approximately 20% uptime. (This is the same as stuff like Shard of Contempt, 45s cooldown, high chance, but the buff is half the duration)

Given that analysis, it scores slightly higher than Worgen Claw and Choker of Vile intent (at my gear level), and loses handily to Choker of Endless Nightmares.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

• Vulajin

Oh, I guess I forgot to note that I made a rough guess based on assuming the necks were 45 second internal cooldown + 1 PPM. Based on those assumptions, the neck scores right around Choker of Vile Intent.

My own anecdotal testing substantiates the 45 second internal cooldown number, for what it's worth. The only question mark is the proc rate.

 

• Aldriana

The thing is, "the raid can do without us" is not the same thing is "we don't contribute anything to the fight". Raids can do without most DPSers of all sorts on most fights. Think about it: on how many fights do you truly need a mage? Or a hunter? I mean, there's a few... but there's a few fights where you need a rogue, too. The point is that having a balanced raid with all classes included tends to be more effective than stacking any one class to a ridiculous extent, such that even if some fights favor one class or another, there's still reason to bring at least one or two of all of them.

That said, it is certainly true that there are fights that are notably bad for rogues... but, honestly, just not very many of them. And even the fights that *are* bad for melee DPS, that tends not to mean "we don't bring *any* rogues" but simply "we don't bring as many". For instance, Vashj requires a certain level of ranged DPS to get the striders down, and it's helpful to have them for the elementals as well. But, once you have enough for that, there's nothing stopping you from bringing melee to kill the Naga and Vashj herself. So if you're having trouble with the fight, yes, you probably stack ranged DPS at the expense of melee... but I'm willing to bet that very few guilds need to stack to the extent that they don't have at least a few melee. It might be 3 instead of their usual 6... but they'll be there.

Also, I disagree with the notion that "a melee friendly fight" consists of one where melee can DPS full time without thinking of anything else. It's certainly true that that's a good fight for melee, but there are other fights and mechanics that are beneficial to us, so a fight could still be made interesting and complex without just being tank-and-spank. For instance, if, say, Brutallus's burn were targeted at the nearest player rather than randomly, you would then want a rotation of people who could remove it to take turns walking directly under the boss, eating it, and then moving out. And the natural - in fact, almost the *only* - choice to do so would be rogues. Would the fight be possible without them? Oh, probably. But it would definitely be the best way of doing the fight.

So in the end: it's true that there are more fights that require ranged DPS than there are that require melee DPS. But I don't think the problem is as bad as some people like to claim, and I don't think the argument that we're not required for any fight holds any water. It would be nice to see a few more melee friendly fights in WotLK... but I'm actually not too discontent with the status quo, either.

 

iamtabo

Hello all,

I'm running across some things that I don't quite understand. We have a rogue that just started raiding with us. He's geared in a mix of 2pc T4, badge rewards, a piece or 2 of t6 level gear and s1 weapons (His Armory). I'm in a mix of t5 level and t6 level gear with ToA and S2 offhand (My Armory).

According to both dps and gear spreadsheets my dps should be ahead of his, not by a huge margin, but still should be ahead. However, whenever he's in the raid, he is consistently out-damaging me and the rest of the rogues.

I've looked over the wws parses and nothing really jumps out at me. We have similar amounts of white hits, as well as sinister strikes and ruptures. Tho he pops evis's more than I do, I don't think that would be generating the differences that I'm seeing.

Long story short, would greatly appreciate if somebody can take a look see and tell me if that's just how things are or I'm doing something terribly wrong.

Kaz'rogal Parse
Teron Parse

 

◊ Shaker

Well, he has a DST, and you don't, which makes some difference. That *should* be balanced about by his S1 swords, however. I noticed on Kazrogal he was in earlier than you were, but the damage difference is slight and totally within the randomness of rogue DPS. Perhaps he's just trying harder? I notice that neither of you get more than 1 Blade Flurry in during a fight, but again, neither of you are, so it shouldn't be a huge difference.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

• sedrikk

Are you also sure you are using the same consumables? The addition of him using haste pots can have a noticeable impact if you are not chugging them as well.

 

tymoney321

He isn't using haste pots, those are DST procs sedrikk.

Tabo, check your PMs.

 

iamtabo

no haste pots, just agi food and elixer. i've chugged a few haste pots a couple times to offset his dst but he still comes out ahead. one of the other rogues in the guild has as dst and about the same level gear as me, he gets beat as well.

 

Samm

Hey Guys, I need a little bit of guidance =/... Well this is my problem, I was recently Combat Swords with The Season 1 Sword Mainhand and the Season 2 Offhand.[Gladiator's Slicer] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] Recently with the new badge gear I've gotten the Legs, Chest, and the 2 Fist weapons. [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. I'm not sure if I should Stay Combat Fists now that I have the new fist weapons, or either go Fist/Sword. With the Vanir's Right fist as MH and the S2 as Offhand.

 

◊ Shaker

Like the 13 other people who've asked that very question (or very very close approximations of it), we'll suggest you check with a local spreadsheet. There's even links in the first post! I'm faking being excited when really I want to be mean!

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

• Vulajin

I really just need to delete the entire first post and replace it with the text: "USE THE SPREADSHEET."

Please follow that advice.

 

McLarge

I agree.

Seems that the real issue is the very limited amount of "cushion" melee has. There are a large number of endgame fights that require melee to have precise, and very quick, movements to avoid the 1-shot cleave or 2-shot aoe. Cloak gives us a bit of flexibility (though you've still got to use the skill within a 2 second window before death usually) but we really just don't have the room for stupidity that ranged dps does. One step too far to one side, or a second too slow on the cloak, and it's over for us.

In addition, there are a fair number of bosses that require us to either:
1) Stand around and pick our nose because if we get too close they explode
2) Apply wound or mind numbing poison nerfing our damage output
3) Put on our best kickin' shoes.

#1 blows. There's no denying this is a big slam on melee as there aren't really any fights that require ranged to be in close. Luckily there aren't too many of these fights (Kael adds, Council mage, Supremus p2, Illidan p4…a few others)

I'm actually totally fine with 2 & 3, but often raid leaders aren't. The reality is, since other classes can interrupt, our superior ability to kick and apply poisons is rarely viewed as "raid utility" by other classes. Instead it's assumed our only utility is dps, and in a fight where I'm saving energy for a spirit shocks or a circle of healing to be cast my dps doesn't impress. Many muse, "If the rogues aren't topping the meters, and if they have a higher probability of dying, then why bring them?" The annoying reality of guilds like Nihilum doing world first kills without rogues just gives the ignorant more fodder to throw at us.

The only solution is to not suck at your job. Be so good at kicking those spirit shocks that your guild skips RoS when you're not around. Be ridiculously precise and quick in your movements and don't pull agro so you can suggest your guild bring more melee since the locks, mages, and hunters keep wiping raids.

The game isn't biased against melee, we just picked a hard class to play well. I just thank my lucky stars I didn't roll a healer…

 

Samm

Sorry, but I understand that you guys want me to use the spreadsheet, and I tried.. I don't have Microsoft Excel, I've downloaded OpenOffice though and the new gear doesn't seem to be in the spreadsheet that is linked on the first page, + the fact that i'm clueless with the spreadsheets.... Also.. Armoury is down as always.Again i'm sorry.

 

Echophantom

Hello everyone. I'm a new poster to these forums, though I've been paying attention to them ever since someone recommended it.

My question seems like a completely idiotic one, but I figure that if I'm having problems with it there's gotta be someone else with the same problem who doesn't want to post about it.

The problem I'm having is keeping up a decent SnD/Rupture rotation. According the Aldriana's spreadsheet I should be doing ~1100 DPS, and able to keep up either 3s/5r or 4s/5r, but I can never seem to be able to keep that up. I'm wondering if it's because I'm not using AR often enough, and that's part of it, or if there's an item I don't know about that I should be using and am not, or if I'm just plain not hitting Combat Potency procs.

So if someone could post an idiot's guide to a Slice and Dice/Rupture rotation for me, that'd be great. I have a suspicion it's that I haven't been using Adrenaline rush often enough, because I always seem to be able to keep up the combo points for it for those 15 seconds, but no further.

Thanks in advance, everyone. These forums have already helped me immensely.

EDIT: And if this has been posted either elsewhere in the thread or another one, I didn't see it, so my apologies there. I tried searching through the forums, but didn't find anything and couldn't think of other terms to use to try and find it.

 

aleyro

Though not an absolute requirement, having the 2pc tier 4 bonus certainly helps. After a quick look at your armory, your spec/gear/hit rating seem basically up to par, given your level of progression. Double mongoose might help, as well (mongoose=>haste=>more OH hits=>more CP procs=>more energy=>more CPs=>more finishers=>more relentless procs=>tigher cycles.... you see where i'm going here). If you can, posting a link to a WWS report would give us more info to work with.

Further, AR isn't really meant to be a tool to allow you to maintain cycles- actually, AR normally interferes with normal cycles. What UI/Mods are you using? Your UI should be configured so that you can easily see your CPs, energy, and buffs, with minimal eye-travel.

Finally, don't get hung up on 3s5r, or whatever- just focus on making sure SnD doesn't fall off as your first priority, and that rupture is up as much as possible- SnD will do more for your overall dps than Rupture will.

 

Corbet

I'm sure you guys hate these kinds of posts but I'm in dire need of maxxing out my DPS for raiding. I've got a ton of different combinations now that 2.4 is out and I can't decide. With all my hit items equipped, I have the following stats:

+Hit Items:
-504 Agility
-294 Hit
-1792 AP
-26.50% Crit

+New Items:
-546 Agility
-236 Hit
-1854 AP
-27.55% Crit

-126 armor penetration
-.63% Haste
-Aldor +200 AP Proc

The gear in choics in question are:

Neck: [Worgen Claw Necklace] or [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
Ranged: [Steelhawk Crossbow] or [Distracting Blades]
Ring: [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] or [Angelista's Revenge]

One thing that is kinda holding me up is the fact that my Rogue CL was talking theorycraft and he insisted that Rogues must have 290-300 hit, it's the "sweet spot," ect, but with the new items, the increase in AP, Agility, and Crit is insane! Also, I have Weapon Expertise Talent, Shard of Contempt, and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, which makes me almost expertise capped. Advice?

 

Furien

All those items in question can be worked out with one of the spreedsheets, I use Aldriana's (it's linked in the first post of this thread). However in all likelihood go with...

Shattered Sun
Distracting Blades
Angelista's Revenge

There is no special bonus for having hit at 290-300 or even being hit capped. If your rogue CL knows anything about theorycraft he should know this.

Here's a quote from the first post in this thread -

 

• Vulajin

My advice is to use the spreadsheet linked in the first post and do your own work. Your rogue CL obviously has not read this thread and therefore doesn't seem to realize that there's no magic number for hit rating (nor is there a "sweet spot," "inflection point," or any other euphemism you want to use for a magic number).

 

drumbum

Keep in mind that the spreadsheets generally are telling you what the tightest possible cycle for your gear is, theoretically. If you can't sustain it in practice, then you should of course lengthen your cycle more to compensate.

However, you can do a little bit to improve the reliability of a cycle. The best option is generally to try to pool your energy as much as possible before refreshing SND, but being careful not to let your energy bar top out or SND fall off. Basically you want to try to take advantage of the extra energy you may have gained in the previous cycle in case you are unlucky in your next cycle and become energy starved.