The Hunter Lounge - Theorycraft Within - Page 11

Cheeky · 01/11/08, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

Though the spreadsheet will possibly be undergoing heavy changes as this new aspect of Auto Shot is worked out. Possiblity for double aimed? Enjoy it while we can.

No, I'm not going to put in work to model obvious bugs. I can handle the un-linked (seemingly) Auto vs. Special shots, that's actually really easy to do. But I'm going to wait for some kind of official confirmation of what the behavior should be.

Wunlastri · 01/11/08, 3:43 PM

I said....after it's worked out. It'd be crazy to implement changes rightnow.

Talrunya · 01/14/08, 7:15 PM

Originally Posted by Cheeky

Howitzer, Lactose, and I have all been much busier than we thought we would be when we took this effort on. Here is a write up about Pets I did, and hopefully I can get my other sections done quickly.

Pets in Raids
The only real purpose of a raid pet is DPS. You want to select and train a pet to maximize the damage it deals. There are 3 ways a pet deals damage - melee attacks, special attacks, and Kill Command. You also need to make sure you pet stays alive to continue DPSing as much as possible. Your pet is not a luxury, regardless of spec, but an integral part of your arsenal for dealing damage. If you obsess over which gems to socket, and what shot rotation to employ you should understand the logic behind the choices in picking a pet and training it.

Defense
The primary ways to help your pet survive raid encounters are through mitigating the damage it takes. Pets' native mitigation is exceedingly weak. They do not Parry, and have very low Dodge values. The primary ways to avoid damage are through the trainable Avoidance and Resistance abilities.

Avoidance rank 2 is a must have trained ability. You pet will be hit by Cleaves, AE damages, and other unavoidable effects. Rank 2 of avoidance lowers all of this damage by 50%. In effect it doubles your pet's health and the effectiveness of your healing. It does no good if your pet is the focus of a target's attacks, but in a raid setting no non-tank can really survive more than a single hit from a mob - trash or Boss.

Each zone has typical magical damages. By maximizing your pet's resistance value against that damage type you get much more survivability than you would from Armor or extra Stamina. Below is a list of common raid zone damage types:

Karazhan - Arcane/Shadow
Serpentshrine Cavern - Frost/Nature
The Eye - Arcane
Mount Hyjal - Fire
Black Temple - Shadow

Where possible mazimize the resistance before putting points into other defensive abilities. If you have available training points after Avoidance, Resists, and offensive abilities, drop extra points into the best Stamina available.

(edited for content)

I know this is an old post, but its information is very useful nonetheless. After reading it though, I still have a few questions defensive wise -

1. Is natural armour completely worthless training wise? I know physical damage from cleaves,etc... is mitigated by avoidance, but does natural armour not play a factor in this as well? I know by default a level 70 pet has ~9k armor, but how (if any) does additional armour mitigate damage taken by the pet.
2. How important is greater stamina vs natural armour or vs resistances? By default a priest/lock are in the raid group (doing 25mans now) so there is Blood pact or Fortitude buffs to improve stamina, but wouldn't additonal stamina help in pet survivability. It would probably take GS rank 8/9 to make a significant impact to pet HP - question is will the additional 30 resist keep a pet alive longer than an additonal 30 stam.

As is now I have 2 raid pets with basically the same makeup - max dps ability (claw/LB), growl 8, dash/dive 1, GS 8, NA 5, and +60 to all resist - figured a good balance of all stas would be good. I know as a Surv hunter there is not much I can do for my pet apart from spec'ing them as best as possible to keep them alive.

I apologize if this info was already covered, but I did try searching the forums and this bit from Cheekys post is the best I could find.

alienangel · 01/15/08, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Talrunya

It would probably take GS rank 8/9 to make a significant impact to pet HP - question is will the additional 30 resist keep a pet alive longer than an additonal 30 stam.

Well the usual answer to this is, 30 stam == 300 health.
30 resist == some increased chance to take 25%/50%/75% less damage from magical AoE

Average AoE hit in TBC = 2k-8k (where "average" is defined as "what I remember being hit by"). So taking my ability to remember random numbers as flawless, 300 health probably isn't going to make much difference to pet survival, while getting one more 4k hit reduced to 2k probably will. It's not often I say to myself "cool my pet lived with 200hp, I can heal it now!" - more often the pet's health either drops to 20%, then gets healed, or drops to 50% then dies, or just drops to 0% instantly.

exarkun · 01/16/08, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Lactose

Yeah, there is. I'm consolidating information in a notepad document I have somewhere, but I really need some time off, so I'm focusing on enjoying the holidays right now.
Hopefully, that's understandable

Have you had any time recently?

Thanks.

skip · 02/12/08, 7:05 AM

Having some issues since patch with my cast macro can anyone see what may be wrong. I raid a SV hunter.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5.2 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Ivaldi · 02/12/08, 8:19 AM

I don't see many hunters running with an Owl. I'm a BM, so of course I have pet damage multipliers, only I gimp my pet's DPS slightly to throw a debuff up that benefits the melee (primarily the tank).

The debuff btw is Screech, for a -210 melee AP AoE. I'm not even sure where to look at boss APs, but we did Void Reaver for the first time recently, and I'm not sure the debuff did much. How can I figure out if I'm gimping my DPS and the debuff isn't making a difference.

I also have an upcoming hunter in the guild that looks to me (I am the hunter class leader, we are a somewhat small guild), and we talked about pet choices. I had him go ahead and pick up an owl, hoping that was the right decision. His owl will have rank 4, and it stacks so -310 melee AP. Any better? Should I head him in a different direction? I wish there were more interesting pet choices.

Thanks!

perkuna · 02/12/08, 8:52 AM

Attack power reduction of bosses is capped at around 340.

If you use CoR there's a bit more AP to reduce (135).

So basically you won't have to stack too much AP reduction, an Owl and a non-improved DS (300) do the job quite well.

We have one warrior spec 5/5 DS which leads us to 420 AP reduction which is usually enough (while not capped) with CoR.

Glaurong · 02/12/08, 2:42 PM

I think of my job as killing stuff as fast as possible, less strain on healers, less chance of a parry streak, etc.

The limited class synergy we have, increases raid DPS.

If screech allows your raid to use CoR on bosses that would otherwise kill your tank, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise it is largely a waste, a potential cause of CC breakage and a fair amount of personal DPS lost.

Thorongil · 02/12/08, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

I think of my job as killing stuff as fast as possible, less strain on healers, less chance of a parry streak, etc.

The limited class synergy we have, increases raid DPS.

If screech allows your raid to use CoR on bosses that would otherwise kill your tank, then I'd say go for it. Otherwise it is largely a waste, a potential cause of CC breakage and a fair amount of personal DPS lost.

For some time now screech has been dealing only single-target-damage, thus removing the potential cc-break. It works just like a demo-shout with an added damage-component on the attacked target.

Revith · 02/12/08, 4:45 PM

Originally Posted by skip

Having some issues since patch with my cast macro can anyone see what may be wrong. I raid a SV hunter.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5.2 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

You need a ! in front of your Auto Shot. The proper macro line is then:
/castsequence reset=5.2 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady Shot

(This was a 2.3 change that made any toggleable ability such as Auto Shot require a ! in front of it to NOT toggle it on and off)

Kitara · 02/13/08, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by skip

Having some issues since patch with my cast macro can anyone see what may be wrong. I raid a SV hunter.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=5.2 Arcane Shot, Steady Shot, Auto Shot, Steady Shot
/cast [exists,target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Should the steady shot be before the arcane shot here?

Beovylf · 02/15/08, 12:24 PM

Lactose,

I know the old EW formula:

Expose Weakness
Expose Weakness is based on total Agility (after all buffs).
The Raid DPS contribution can be approximated in the following way:
In terms of total DPS, after all modifiers, crits, etc, taken into consideration, 1 AP generally gives 0.2-0.3 DPS per person, usually closer to 0.3.
Based on this, the DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as
(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3

Has this been looked at recently? I believe that this was originally written and confirmed with a T5 guild in T5 gear... since many of us have Illidan on farm now, I would think that the multiplier variable might be closer to 0.4 - 0.5.

Thoughts on this?

Glaurong · 02/15/08, 2:40 PM

Originally Posted by Beovylf

Has this been looked at recently? I believe that this was originally written and confirmed with a T5 guild in T5 gear... since many of us have Illidan on farm now, I would think that the multiplier variable might be closer to 0.4 - 0.5.

Thoughts on this?

Hit/Crit/Haste/Armor Penetration across the board should be increased so I'd agree that the DPS per AP will be slightly higher for a T6 guild. It would probably be best to let experts in the other classes come up with numbers, via their own spreadsheets or tools though.

Mattaos · 02/15/08, 3:08 PM

Originally Posted by Kitara

Should the steady shot be before the arcane shot here?

I believe so from everything I have read. By opening with Arcane Shot the GCD is activated before the Steady Shot can begin to cast and has to wait for the GCD to reset. I have had good success using a 1:1.5 rotation that opens with !Auto Shot, Steady Shot, Arcane Shot, !Auto Shot, Steady shot. The Arcane fires immediately after the Steady Shot so the GCD doesn't effect the next Steady Shot.

Gorgar (EU) · 02/15/08, 4:03 PM

To answer Ivaldi, I've used a bat for a long time, and I do love the Screech pet skill, but it seems to be a pain to my raidmates' ears. When you are close to the pet, the sound is really annoying, so I decided to go without this lovely debuff in raid. I only use my bat for farming (with the zone aggro produced) and sometimes PvP.

Moshne · 02/15/08, 7:00 PM

Originally Posted by Beovylf

Lactose,

I know the old EW formula:

Expose Weakness
Expose Weakness is based on total Agility (after all buffs).
The Raid DPS contribution can be approximated in the following way:
In terms of total DPS, after all modifiers, crits, etc, taken into consideration, 1 AP generally gives 0.2-0.3 DPS per person, usually closer to 0.3.
Based on this, the DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as
(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3

Has this been looked at recently? I believe that this was originally written and confirmed with a T5 guild in T5 gear... since many of us have Illidan on farm now, I would think that the multiplier variable might be closer to 0.4 - 0.5.

Thoughts on this?

I was looking at a post back in the Survival thread discussing this as well. We run a survival hunter in our raids, and I've been tryign to find a solid way to evaluate her DPS contribution to the raid (which, isn't really an issue, but more just to satisfy my theorycraft desires.)

I saw the "standard" Raid DPS formula, which only considers the contribution from DPS classes, while our tanks and raid pets are also gaining from it. I tried scrolling through the Prot warrior threads to find a good correlation of AP to damage and threat, but there isn't a real consensus. While no one considers Prot warriors to be a DPS class, any damage they deal obviously gets added into the sum whole of the raid, and it seems we ought to fairly evaluate it. If this formula is being reevaluated, this might be something to consider adding in, as it seems the current EW formula is undervaluing the raid DPS contribution from a point of Agi.

skip · 02/15/08, 11:04 PM

Thank you guys so much that ! has fixed my problem. Oh the other night on vash none of the hunters macros worked. We had to use steady shot the old way, but we got her down.

Jnnab · 02/20/08, 10:14 PM

Ok guys im not one to ask for help very often but i am stuck. I am a 41/20 Hunter in decent gear. I cannot seem to break the sustained 1k Dps mark during our raids. We do SSC 2-3 times a week and Tk usually 1 time a weeks. We are not nearly as progressed as some other guilds due to the fact that we are only like 5 months old. But with that said i come here very often and read the posts and try to use them the best i can to help my hunters in the guild get better. So what can i do to break the 1k sustained Dps mark? I currently use the following macro as a shot rotation, throwing in Arcane shot whenever it is off cooldown. I also use my MS whenever it is availiable and can be safely used.

#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()

Here is my armory link.
The World of Warcraft Armory

I also use the macro listed below to blow my trinkets. whenever they are up.

/petattack
/use Bloodlust
/stopcasting
/cast Bestial Wrath
/stopcasting
/cast Intimidation

Soo,,now with myself exposed plese help i can sustain about 890-950 DPS on every raid but i know that i should be doing more then that. I just dont know how i can pull it of. I a mthe Hunter Class lead so if i cant do it then i shouldnt expect my hunters to be able to do it. Thanks

Fendryl · 02/21/08, 11:16 AM

Coincidently, there's a "Help me please" thread in this forum - http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t15179-h...elp_me_please/

Talents: Get Animal Handler, Drop Spirit Bond, you can drop one point out of frenzy & it'll still be up consistantly.

Gear: I'm not sure if your armory is your PvP stuff, or your normal gear. It's a bit low on hit rating, boosting that could help, definitely consider replacing your resilience ring with something like [Garona's Signet Ring], or [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin]. [Choker of Vile Intent] may be a good change for your neck as well. [Fiend Slayer Boots] are another good source of Karazhan hit gear.
Gems: Gem for AGI, not AP. BoK will help more, plus the higher crit will force more KC's, which in turn will force more FI's.

Enchants: Your enchants seem fine, except your boots aren't enchanted - though that may be because they're PvP gear.

Jnnab · 02/21/08, 11:53 AM

Ya sorry dont know why i posted here it was a long day yesterdy it has been moved.

turbo_012 · 02/28/08, 3:57 AM

Hi, I know all hunters are supposed to know this, but I get different answers from everyone I meet.

From my understanding Hit rating against bosses, currently which are considered level 73, is 136 Hit Rating (8.6% to hit)

But now I'm getting info saying that it is 140, or some are saying it's 9%.

Some are even saying numbers that are rounded up.

Now I'm here on the forums to be exact.

What is the current Hunter's Hit cap? Whereas...
-the hunter's level is 70
-the hunter's range weapon skill is capped at 350
-the boss the hunter is hitting is 73

Also one last note using talents from the beast mastery tree, animal handler, is the pet's hit % capped at 4%? meaning it's not enough for raid bosses, and 1% short of pvp.

Dalakroth · 02/28/08, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by turbo_012

Hi, I know all hunters are supposed to know this, but I get different answers from everyone I meet.

From my understanding Hit rating against bosses, currently which are considered level 73, is 136 Hit Rating (8.6% to hit)

But now I'm getting info saying that it is 140, or some are saying it's 9%.

Some are even saying numbers that are rounded up.

Now I'm here on the forums to be exact.

What is the current Hunter's Hit cap? Whereas...
-the hunter's level is 70
-the hunter's range weapon skill is capped at 350
-the boss the hunter is hitting is 73

Also one last note using talents from the beast mastery tree, animal handler, is the pet's hit % capped at 4%? meaning it's not enough for raid bosses, and 1% short of pvp.

9% Is the hit cap vs lvl73 boss mobs.

15.77 Hit rating = 1% Hit.

Thus meaning 9 * 15.77 = 141.93 Hit rating required (rounded up to 142 in game).

Unfortunately I can't help you on the pet hit rating issue, from my own WWS logs I've seen some very random results and would be interested to see some "confirmed" theorycrafting on the subjet rather than my own assumptions.

turbo_012 · 02/28/08, 9:22 AM

Originally Posted by Dalakroth

9% Is the hit cap vs lvl73 boss mobs.

15.77 Hit rating = 1% Hit.

Thus meaning 9 * 15.77 = 141.93 Hit rating required (rounded up to 142 in game).

Unfortunately I can't help you on the pet hit rating issue, from my own WWS logs I've seen some very random results and would be interested to see some "confirmed" theorycrafting on the subjet rather than my own assumptions.

Thank you so much.

Yea I don't see people theorycrafting on pets, so there's not much info on pet's hit % yet.

Hrank · 02/29/08, 4:26 PM

Apart for Animal Handler, nothing much that currently can be done about pet hit rating as far as I can tell.
From studying through some WWS logs, there's apparently some skills that miss more than others.
I have not paid close enough attention, so I'd have to check out if these are consistently the same with a consistent average miss percent. Gut feeling is yes, with all the unreliability gut feeling has.

On average, my pet, as a Surv hunter (no animal handler) misses for some 15 to 17% on level 73 or ?? bosses.

Last Gruul's Lair WWS indicates 10.3% misses on melee attacks and 14.8% misses on Gore.
For the MM hunter (no animal handler either) that did the run too, his pet has 9.9% misses on melee, 4.1% misses on Kill Command, 14.2% misses on Claw and 21.2% misses on Bite.

In case others have results consistent with mine, we can assume different pet skills may have different chances to hit.