The Hunter Lounge - Theorycraft Within - Page 11

Cheeky · 12/05/07, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

You are forgetting that a BM hunter makes much better use of raid buffs. That is a huge advantage and needs to be considered if you are going to try and do this comparison.

I think my initial scaling analysis included a bunch of typical raid buffs. At no point did MM out-DPS a BM spec where the pet was included, but it seemed like without haste or faster weapons it eventually could.

Sienna · 12/05/07, 8:22 PM

Originally Posted by Thorongil

This seems basically convincing but you forget some details. MM also grants you 5 % more damage (also scales until infinity), 45 % of Int as AP (not much, but also scales through) as well as 12 % more dmg and Crit on Multishot. All these add a bonus to the MM-scaling.

Furthermore you have to consider the proportion of Hunter vs. Pet in your dps. Just a random number to illustrate that: Say, a MM-hunter does 90 % of his dps himself the BM does only 70 %. The result is, of course, that 90 % of the MM´s dmg scales nearly 1:1 with his gear bonusses whereas only 70 % of the BM´s damage does, since the pet simply scales far worse than the hunter himself.

All these combined lead to the assumption that there must be a break-even-point, where MM scales better onwards than BM. The only question is, whether this break-even-point is in reach with gear available at the time being - and Cheeky already showed that it is possible to gear to that point.

As a side note: Why does (following the above thoughts) MM not scale better at all but needs high-end gear to do so? I think this might be due to the abilities that enhance MMs scaling. The only really scaling-ability of BM is SS which basically scales with every stat. MM-skills are more specific in terms of scaling. Multishot - of course - only scales with the use of the ability. 10 % more AP scales better with increasing AP than with Crit, only RWS does fully scale. That might the be the reason for the disparity in scale concerning T4/T5/T6-gear.

Yeah but you forget the gain from RWS is actually negated with the 3% FI + BW. FI is up 99% of the time, so you actually gain 2% more damage from RWS, and FI effects your pet where RWS doesn't. On top of that 18 seconds every 2 minutes you have BW up, that's 10% for you 50% for pet. 10% every 18/120 seconds is 0.015% overall damage for you, and 50% * 18/120 = 0.075% for your pet. That already is a much higher percentage than RWS when you add them together, which actually makes 3.3% more damage overall if you assume pet does 30% of damage. So that + FI = 6.3% more damage from BM already. So all you need to compare is 10% AP+multi damage vs Serpent Swiftness. Well you can say intellect also gets higher so you get more AP but let's be honest, how much more intellect can they put in hunter gear anyway, you'll get at most 400 unbuffed or something which gives 180 Ap. That's also a constant to me. And why does the pet scale less than the hunter? I actually didn't look into pet scaling much but as far as I remember pets get actually more dps from the same AP. And that's also irrelevant since if the hunters solo dps actually scales better with BM, then since BM's pets dps will always be better than MM's pets dps anyway, BM will always do more damage.

Goreshot · 12/05/07, 9:53 PM

Does anyone else feel like they're re-reading a discussion that happened last year?

I don't want to be snarky, but come on. No new information is coming to light, people are just throwing around numbers that are already well known. If you care so much about spec scaling, then all you have to do is look at the spreadsheet. If you aren't a big fan of rotations, it still gives you the most accurate, up-to-date information concerning hunter damage statistics that you can use to your theorycrafting heart's desire. It basically gives you all of the "in a vacuum" information you would ever need to make your argument. And frankly, you'd be hard-pressed to find any better widely-available model for the most well-established hunter shot rotations in the current version of the game, including the value of haste gear.

So can we please stop going back and forth about "OMG MM has MULTISHOT DAMAGE which pwns ur FUROSHUS INSPRSHUN LAWL"? It's not constructive. Spec differences like these are things everyone (here) already knows.

For the record, the answer lies in attack speed. BM hunters don't use slow weapons, MM hunters don't use fast weapons. Because of Steady Shot, you need the correct mix of weapon and/or haste gear to get ANY hunter spec to do reasonable damage. Take into account which shot rotation (and hence attack speed) you are looking to maintain for sustained damage, and then build your weapon and haste gear accordingly. After that you can determine how well that specific combination of spec and attack speed scale.

Sienna · 12/05/07, 10:01 PM

Well ok, I wasn't trying to start a new discussion, I just replied to Thorongil. Don't think there's any harm done to make someone skip the 200 page old thread if he's only looking for this part of information

JagDson · 12/05/07, 10:50 PM

Hi, i was wondering the basics.

1.Number of +hit to hit cap. (Or what is an opinionated number that is nice for raiding)
2. Crit/Hit I'm having trouble balancing the two, When do i have TOO MUCH CRIT! I know i do and should stack some agi gems to further enhance my RAP.
3. Ignore armor. I know casters have it narrowed down to the numbers for their spell haste. 1 haste = one spell dmg or something along those lines. Would anyone happen to know exactly how much Ignore armor is needed for raiding. And or how much ignore armor is going to = ranged attack power while raiding.
A few replies would be nice. Remember im talking strictly PvE

Sienna · 12/05/07, 11:32 PM

1.The hit cap is around 141 hit rating e.g. 9% hit.
2. You can never have too much crit. But in general x amount of agi is better than x amount of crit.
3. Armor penetration depends on the armor of the mob. Against high armor bosses like Voidreaver it's pretty useless, but it'll give a big boost against a boss like Vashj or Kael. So there is no such formula to show how much armor penetration = how much attack power.

JagDson · 12/05/07, 11:36 PM

Ty very much for your reply. Currently Im at 33% crit un buffed and 1700 RAP unbuffed. Think i should improve my rap sacraficing some crit? Im not sure, but once again thanks. I definantly need some more hit rating, although, that should come with gear i obtain, in the mean time 4 hit 4 agi gems should help.

Sienna · 12/06/07, 12:17 AM

In pve a hunter doesn't need to be hitcapped. In general you can get crit instead of hit if you like and you wouldn't lose anything, nor gain much. For AP/crit/hit/agi conversions check Cheeky's spreadsheet since they will depend on your gear.

Mugsley · 12/06/07, 9:33 AM

The hitcap is between 142 and 143, depending on who you talk to. There will always be a debate on the value of +hit based on individual experience. My suggestion is to at least get it over 120.

In general, you want to focus on AGI versus Crit or AP individually due to the amazing scaling of Blessing of Kings in raids. While crit is good, I feel the main reason for it is to keep KC proccing as much as possible. To that end, too much crit means KC is proccing during a cooldown, to the point where you are missing KCs (it goes away before you can pop it); which means you're wasting it.

Armor Penetration has three aspects that need to be considered:

-- The more you have, the better it is (to a point; see next aspect)

-- Once you penetrate all of a targets armor, any more +ArmPen is completely useless

-- It's great for lower-armored bosses (like Aran), but it's easier to cap out
This all equates to +ArmPen being pretty much user-preference (in my mind) as to how much is better, and how much it increases DPS.

Indora · 12/06/07, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by Sienna

In pve a hunter doesn't need to be hitcapped. In general you can get crit instead of hit if you like and you wouldn't lose anything, nor gain much.

With Slaying, metagem and Mortal Shots critrating will be better then hitrating.
With a low critchance critrating will also be better then hitrating, because some items and talents only procc with crits.
But you cannot generally say that crit is better than hit! Most of the time it isn't.

When your critmodificator is bigger then 1.41, crit is defintivly better than hit. But you need a humanoid or beast target and the Slaying talent for this modificator!

Critmodificator with Slaying and Metagem:
1+1.3*1.03*1.03*1.03*1.03=2,463
(do not ask me why the gem and Slaying is calculated twice, but as far as I know it is. It doesn't make any sence and maybe this isn't the correct formel, but it's very near to the real critmodificator.
Please correct me if this is wrong.

Data: many Arcane Shots, damage:
640-641 noncrit
1523-1524 crit
(with slaying only)

1523.5 / 640.5 = 2,37861 should be the modificator

1+1.3*1.03*1.03 = 2,37917
640.5*(1+1.3*1.03*1.03)=1523.86

I think this is near enough.

Originally Posted by Mugsley

To that end, too much crit means KC is proccing during a cooldown, to the point where you are missing KCs (it goes away before you can pop it); which means you're wasting it.

This isn't correct.
Example:
KC has 5 seconds cooldown.
You have 3 seconds after each crit to activate KC, the other 2 seconds are wasted.
With a higher critchance more crits will procc in the first 2 seconds and don't effect your time-to-use-KC.
But in the last 3 seconds will more cirts procc, too! And these crits will decrease your time-to-use-KC.

After flipping a coin with head up, the chance that with the next flipping head will be up, too, isn't reduced!

Sorry for my bad english.

Sienna · 12/06/07, 11:05 AM

Actually you don't need slaying. 22 crit rating = 1% crit = 1.3% more damage ==> 17 crit rating = 1% more damage, where 15.7 hit rating = 1% more damage so it looks like same hit rating gives more damage, but 1 crit also gives 50 pet energy = in my case that's equal to LB = 180 damage. When you take that into account 17 crit rating becomes better than 17 hit rating. Not to mention you get a KC out of it (that's not one KC per one crit exactly but still). And you are not wrong, meta gem and slaying do stack. But I don't use that metagem and slaying in my raiding spec so even without those I prefer crit over hit.

Sienna · 12/06/07, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Mugsley

The hitcap is between 142 and 143, depending on who you talk to. There will always be a debate on the value of +hit based on individual experience. My suggestion is to at least get it over 120.

In general, you want to focus on AGI versus Crit or AP individually due to the amazing scaling of Blessing of Kings in raids. While crit is good, I feel the main reason for it is to keep KC proccing as much as possible. To that end, too much crit means KC is proccing during a cooldown, to the point where you are missing KCs (it goes away before you can pop it); which means you're wasting it.

Armor Penetration has three aspects that need to be considered:
1500
-- The more you have, the better it is (to a point; see next aspect)

-- Once you penetrate all of a targets armor, any more +ArmPen is completely useless

-- It's great for lower-armored bosses (like Aran), but it's easier to cap out
This all equates to +ArmPen being pretty much user-preference (in my mind) as to how much is better, and how much it increases DPS.

The problem is you can never penetrate the whole armor of a boss since there isn't enough penetration gear out there. The lowest boss armor is 5500 except netherspite I think, but let's focus on BT/hyjal. 5500 does go down to 1500 with 5 sunders, FF and COR. And you cannot get 1500 passive penetration. Only with executioner procs you can.

Indora · 12/06/07, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Sienna

Actually you don't need slaying. 22 crit rating = 1% crit = 1.3% more damage ==> 17 crit rating = 1% more damage, where 15.7 hit rating = 1% more damage so it looks like same hit rating gives more damage, but 1 crit also gives 50 pet energy = in my case that's equal to LB = 180 damage. When you take that into account 17 crit rating becomes better than 17 hit rating. Not to mention you get a KC out of it (that's not one KC per one crit exactly but still). And you are not wrong, meta gem and slaying do stack. But I don't use that metagem and slaying in my raiding spec so even without those I prefer crit over hit.

"...22 crit rating = 1% crit = 1.3% more damage"

this is only true with 100% hit, 5/5 mortal shots and 0% crit.
1% more crit doesn't increase the damage you deal with your other crit!

Example with 30% critchance and 100 dps without crits:

100*(1-0.3) + 100*0.3*2.3 = 139
1% more crit:
100*(1-0.31) + 100*0.31*2.3 = 140,3

140.3 / 139 = 1.01% more dmg. not 1.3%!

"...but 1 crit also gives 50 pet energy = in my case that's equal to LB = 180 damage."

critchance * shots per seconds * 50 * 3.6 = damage through go for the throath

Example with 22.08 critrating (not 22 ^^):

0.01*1*50*3.6 = 1.8 dps
(As SV/MM with a 1:1.5 rotation you have around one shot per second)
with 1000 dps: 0.18% more dmg.
--> 22.08 / 1.028 = 21,48 > 15.77

"...Not to mention you get a KC out of it (that's not one KC per one crit exactly but still)"

Way less than 1 KC per crit!

chance to procc KC while CD with 30% crit:
1 - 0.7 ^ 5 = 83,2%
with 31% crit:
1 - 0.69 ^ 5 = 84.4%

84.4 / 83.2 = 1.014% more dmg from KC.
Kc does around 100 dps, so this would be 1 dps or 0.1% more dmg.

--> 22.08 / 1.128 = 19,57 > 15.77

stilll not as good as hitrating.

"...And you are not wrong, meta gem and slaying do stack."

I meant that they both, meta gem and slaying, are calculated twice. so you have to use * 1.03 four times to calculate your critmodificator.

Gearknight · 12/06/07, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

"...22 crit rating = 1% crit = 1.3% more damage"

this is only true with 100% hit, 5/5 mortal shots and 0% crit.
1% more crit doesn't increase the damage you deal with your other crit!

1% hit turns 1% of your shots from 0 damage to X damage

1% crit turns 1% of your shots from X damage to 2.3X damage (or 2.36 or whatever), an increase of 1.3 X. I think this is what the person you're quoting meant, and it's certainly the easiest way to think about the relative values of crit and hit.

Sienna · 12/06/07, 2:05 PM

Originally Posted by Indora

"...22 crit rating = 1% crit = 1.3% more damage"

this is only true with 100% hit, 5/5 mortal shots and 0% crit.
1% more crit doesn't increase the damage you deal with your other crit!

Example with 30% critchance and 100 dps without crits:

100*(1-0.3) + 100*0.3*2.3 = 139
1% more crit:
100*(1-0.31) + 100*0.31*2.3 = 140,3

140.3 / 139 = 1.01% more dmg. not 1.3%!

"...but 1 crit also gives 50 pet energy = in my case that's equal to LB = 180 damage."

critchance * shots per seconds * 50 * 3.6 = damage through go for the throath

Example with 22.08 critrating (not 22 ^^):

0.01*1*50*3.6 = 1.8 dps
(As SV/MM with a 1:1.5 rotation you have around one shot per second)
with 1000 dps: 0.18% more dmg.
--> 22.08 / 1.028 = 21,48 > 15.77

"...Not to mention you get a KC out of it (that's not one KC per one crit exactly but still)"

Way less than 1 KC per crit!

chance to procc KC while CD with 30% crit:
1 - 0.7 ^ 5 = 83,2%
with 31% crit:
1 - 0.69 ^ 5 = 84.4%

84.4 / 83.2 = 1.014% more dmg from KC.
Kc does around 100 dps, so this would be 1 dps or 0.1% more dmg.

--> 22.08 / 1.128 = 19,57 > 15.77

stilll not as good as hitrating.

"...And you are not wrong, meta gem and slaying do stack."

I meant that they both, meta gem and slaying, are calculated twice. so you have to use * 1.03 four times to calculate your critmodificator.

You are right about 1% crit giving 1.3% more damage only at 0 crit chance I just expressed myself wrong. But in any case, getting 15.7 more hit rating gives the same damage boost as getting 17 crit rating without taking GFTT and KC into account.

3% miss chance 20% crit chance

100 attacks each dealing 1000 damage

3 misses 20 crits 77 hits = 123000 damage

get 15.7 hit rating = 1% more hit

2 misses 20 crits 78 hits = 124000 damage

get 17 crit rating
3 misses 20.77 crits 76.23 hits =124000 damage

So the fact remains that 17 crit rating gives the exact same damage boost as 15.7 hit rating, regardless of your crit/hit chance. And then you get GFTT and KC. And ofc it's only true with 5/5 mortal shots but who doesn't get 5/5 mortal shots for a raidspec?

And calculating the damage from GFTT is a bit more different than your formula since you gotta take into account 2/2 focus regen and also GCD of Lightning breath is not 1 second so even if you crit 2 times in 2 seconds you don't get 2 LB's in those 2 seconds, you can get 1 every 1.5 seconds.

But add to the above equation an extra LB. So as I said 15.7 hit rating gave you 1000 more damage, as 17 crit rating gave you. Now since you had 0.77 more crits in those 100 shots, which takes 100 seconds, so let's say you actually got one more LB out of it, or say you got 0.77 more LB out of it, so you gained 1000 more damage + 180*0.77 = 138 more damage = 1138 more damage from 17 crit rating. Now 1138/17 = 66.9 where 1000/15.7=63.6. So you get more damage from 1 crit rating compared to 1 hit rating. And I took 1000 damage from shots a bit too far fetched. No BM does 1000 damage from auto or steady even fully raidbuffed. It's more around 700 damage from each. So LB damage will be even bigger percentage of the total damage in a real life calculation, since I do 180 LB without raidbuffs, fully buffed it'll be around 190+. And I didn't even take into account crit chance of LB so the average damage of LB isn't 180, it crits for 300 (unbuffed) with a 11% chance to crit. I'm aware all this is a bit too vague since you need to take into account the fact that you can crit while pet has 100% focus, i.e. crit 2 times in a row within pet's LB GCD. But it'll take a while to calculate how many times that'll happen with different crit chances.
And meta + slaying don't stack twice. We just tested with arcane shot though, no idea about other shots but arcane damage was exactly the ((tooltip damage * 1.03)*2.3*1.03)*1.03