Gadget

Just to throw in some numbers, in case that's of any interest.

As a BM (inc. Cobra Reflexes for the pet), my pet's (cat family) stats are typically like this in SSC/TK and T4/T5 equip level:

Taken from quick looks at SWS:
type/avg/max/miss
Melee: 280 / 1060/ 11.1%
KC: 450 / 1600 / 10.4-13.8%
Claw: 82 / 305 / 10.3-14.1
Bite: 151 / 539 / 11.8-16.3

I would say that 10-12% miss is the usual range for all attack types.

 

Indora

Why should pets have a different hitchance than 2hand-weapons, 1hand-weapons, feraldruids, hunter or special attacks?
Only dual-wield attacks don't fit into this scheme.. I haven't seen my pet using 2 onehand-weapons for a long time.

Your numbers just vary.
Do your tests again, with 10.000 and more attacks.

I'm quite sure that pets have a base 9% miss against bosses.

 

Houze

Pet's should have 9% miss against bosses (without animal handler). Quick glance at WWS-reports or similiar reporting tool will report higher numbers (15-20%?) as it includes attacks that being dodge or parried.

 

Khassandra

I have a question about something that I occurred to me today. How does Blessing of Salvation affect Misdirection, or does it? Will having Salv on affect the amount of threat I'm attempting to throw onto someone else? Seems to me like it would lessen any amount of threat I try to generate, regardless of whether I'm generating it for myself or for someone else, but I'm not sure.

 

Teldra

I've always assumed that Salv will decrease the threat of Misdirect and have badgered the Pallies in my guild to not use it on our hunters.

 

• Intermission

I disagree with this.

The main use of MD in my opinion is to ensure that the mob goes to the tank on the pull/aggro dumps/spawning adds/multi-mob multishot MDs/etc. The threat generated by the average MD, around 4-5k assuming a crit or two crit, is a nice permanent threat bonus. With salv, a bit over 1k threat would be lost from the MD.

I'm sure 1k threat (or say, 1 second of tank threat), is very much worth salv on hunters. Pulling 2.5k TPS while trinketed/Wrath/etc, it's VERY easy to catch a tank on threat even after a successful FD ~1-2 minutes into the fight. And we all know not every FD is successful... . Also consider fights like Illidan, constant aggro resets throughout the fight.

With 4 pallys, typically hunters get Kings/Might/Wisdom then Light or Salv as needed (eg: Salv for Council, Light for Mother). With 3 pallys, we make the choice of Wisdom or Salv, depending on the fight. Salv > Wisdom for Souls is a good example. Also, if JoW's are decent (or even better, our ret pally shows up), Salv for Illidan, Council, and some others for various reasons.

 

KraxisSingular

Quite right...

30% less threat is 30% less threat sent in the direction of the tank. Same is true for Tranquil Air totem.
As Hunters we don't like less threat. And there are of course reasons for this.
Firstly, our abilities are hampered. Misdirection and pulling to traps, both suffer. Secondly, getting Salvation or Tranquil Air takes up valuable buff spots. It would be horrible to lose BoK or BoM and get Salv instead, that would lower our DPS. This of course requires a certain degree of Feign Dead usage.

Personally I take it as half an insult if I get Salvation over any DPS blessing, and a slap in the face if I get it in the middle of an encounter. It is a clear indication that I am not doing my job properly. In fact getting Salvation is worse for me than getting yelled at as it sort of implies that I can't manage my threat for good, while being yelled at and then being allowed to keep BoM would indicate a certain degree of trust.

Only if there is 3+ Pallies would I ever allow Salvation on me, and only on trash (where you can be a superb handler of threat and still get a freak crit on the initial shot).

[Edit] Damn, Intermission got in between. This post is pointed towards Teldra's post.

[Edit2]
Intermission, while your experience is greater than mine, I don't agree that MD is so determinedly set for pulling purposes. Yes it is great for that. But it is equally there for creating a nice threatbuffer for the tank to work with. Allowing people to settle into their rotations and what not. Nothing is worse than the boss getting off a heavy hit which is instantly healed back by a massive crit... Healeraggro is then a looming possibility the less aggro the tank has initially.
Further, later in the fight another MD on the tank is a blessing from heaven as you know. And when we MD we are not only dealing with our own and the tank's personal threat, but that of the entire raid. That 1K threat extra on each MD from each Hunter (3 Hunters? perhaps more) can really go a long way.
So what if we might have to scale back when our FD is resisted, the other classes have to do this all the time, and as such the more threat we give the more we allow the others to get up there. 1k threat is 1300 damage more from each DPS member with Salv (more for certain classes with inherent threatreduction). It should very well more than even out in the end.

 

• Intermission

Potentially, yes it's 1300 (or more) damage for dps classes who dont have a substantial aggro dump.

However I would hate to think the dps'ers are riding the line so finely that it actually does make the difference. But lets just predend that they did:

Keep in mind though, that the only fights I would use salv over light/wis would be fights where the hunters do indeed need to hold back our own dps to not pull aggro. The 3 hunters going from a rotation to only autoshot for ~10 seconds (or more if an FD resist early) is a lot more of a damage loss than the potential 4-5k dmg for every SP, Fury Warrior, Enhance Shaman, etc.

Also keep in mind the act of pulling aggro (or holding back dps) is not really a value that can be quantified and take advantage of little units of threat, like the way Attack Power or Spell Damage could be quantified to DPS. If one buff greatly reduces the risk of pulling aggro (or the amount held back by 30%) of select individuals, I think that's more benificial to a raids success than a ~0.83%* increase in tank threat per hunter, relative to 10 other people. 3x 30% > 10x 0.83%.

*
tank TPS=1000 (is that generous? I'm not sure of typical figures)
loss per MD from salv = 1000 (which is generous in favour of pro-salv argument
MD every 2 minutes (which is generous in favour or pro-salv argument)
tank gains 120k threat per 2 mins.
a loss of 1k per 2 mins
a loss of 0.83% tank threat


Oh, and any fight where the threat does remain on the tank long enough for multiple MDs (no dumps, phase changes, adds, etc).... we wouldnt have salv anyway! So this mock-up fight is pointless aside from showing just how little threat is lost from salv'ed MDs on a tank. Only acception is Council due to 4 mobs multiplying FD resist chance.


edit:
For interests sake, this is a list of t6 bosses that I would request salv for instead of light (as a 4th pally buff):
Supremus
Souls
Council
Illidan
Anatheron
Kazrogal

And this is a list if salv was replacing wisdom (as the 3rd pally buff):
Souls
maaybe Illidan, depending on ret pally or specs of hunters.

 

Hunterlin

On all Hyjal bosses I remove Salvation if I get it.
Kiting trash off the mobs with Salvation on you is 30% harder.
It is not only kiting to get npcs involved in aoe area, you must also go and take gargs and infernals off npcs to save them. After few first gargs kited, you must overcome NPCs in aggro that they have built for some time.
On infernals our offtanks can taunt and kite them off, but to get aggro of flyers from npcs is hunters task.

 

• Intermission

Pallies can rebuff as wave 8 is ending.

 

Jander

From looking at omen, especially while misdirecting during Seeth, I think it takes the threat we generate, and the multiplies it by our target's threat modifers. If thats the case and you are MDing to a warrior (+50% threat iirc) then he should get 150% of the threat you caused with MD. If you have salv on it would be 116%. Still 30% les threat but its 30% less of a bigger number.

Try watching omen on RoS phase 3 MD with seeth. A good MD gives about 4k threat, 4000 * 2 (Seeth on hunter) *1.5 (Prot Modifer) * 2 (Seeth on Tank) = 24,000. If it was just our threat modifers it would be only 8,000. Given the fact that the tank is usualy over 60k threat at the end of Seeth and a tank pulling 1500 TPS would only put out 30,000 in that 10 seconds seems to give the theory some merit.

 

Kabuto

That of course depends on Omen being correct.
Don't really agree with your choices there personally, but I am surprised you didn't mention Gorefiend.

 

KraxisSingular

That assumes all the hunters have their FD resisted every time. Besides you have only counted MD from one Hunter. Yes, then it is a great deal better with Salv. But FD resists range at what? 15% per encountered boss? On multiboss fights where aggro builds on all of them, give me Salv.

But it seems we are generally in agreement. Salv on special cases, otherwise Wisdom. The first post just looked a little bit like you had Wisdom and Salv as equally good most of the time. Which I can see now that you don't.

 

Vegelus

Improved Fearie Fire (3% hit)
Draenei's racial (1%)
And that would be all

 

Khassandra

Well that has sparked an interesting debate. I also take it as somewhat of an insult when someone gives me Salv, especially when there are only a couple of pallies. I actually use an ace mod called SalvationKiller, which will automatically remove them. I keep it on the setting where it notifies me and asks whether to keep it or kill it. I found on Kael last night that its kind of a pain in the butt to remove it during the fight when I have to tank the bow. In some cases, I'm the only hunter in the raid, so its important that my MDs are as potent as possible.

What I'd like to know is how its any less insulting for a pally to put Salv on me than it is for me to MD onto him? I've actually run into that, where the pally tank refuses to let me MD as though its a reflection on his tanking ability but insists that I keep Salv on.

 

• Intermission

We have a druid tank him, so threat is not an issue. Also, with raid wide damage, I'm happy to have light (although admittedly the pallies would most likely be tank healing and dispelling).

Yeah, just to clarify, the only fight I would rather Salv than Wisdom is Souls for obvious reasons. Actually, Illidan can be a special case though. A combination of:

• The need for very high dps on Flames, yet tanks in FR gear, and 2x chance for FD to resist (or more if Illidan counts as a target? Or blades even? I doubt that though)
• The constant threat wipes in phase 3
• Trap + Lust + Wrath/etc

It seems like some people forget that Wisdom does not increase your dps unless you would go out of mana using the rotation you would use anyway. But Salv does increase how much damage you can do before you wipe the raid. I cant remember the last time I went out of mana as BM or Survival spec on any important fight. As BM, I literally cannot go OOM with a JoW, unless I spam scorpid sting, mend pet, etc.

 

pridehunter

So for all the bm hunters out there i have a question i am kara lvl right now and just got wolfslayer i have had sunfury for quite some time yet looking back at the wws reports for the last weeks and the week i used wolfslayer and doing the dr boom test i show that sunfury is better. I know that wolfslayer is the exepted standard for bm hunters i am just curious if i am doing something wrong or why i am coming up with that difference?

 

Teldra

Wisdom will not boost dps, but it can increase damage output over a long fight. My guild is just getting into the 25 man game, so we're doing Gruul and Voidreaver a lot. So while not "spamming" mend pet, I find that I'm doing it extremely frequently in order to keep it alive through the ground pounds and cave ins. So I do go OOM unless I have lots of pots and use Aspect of the Viper (or get lucky and get a shadow priest in the group). I'm alert enough to watch Omen and FD every chance I get, so I'd much rather have Wisdom.

In all honesty I'd say that the preference between Salv and Wisdom is more a preference in play style than anything else. I'd personally much rather have Wisdom during a long boss fight, but I can see where Salv would be very useful on quicker and more pet friendly encounters.

 

Esau

Feigning at the end of every CD isn't very wise. Only FD if you are close to pulling, or need to stay behind certain players. I.E - The off tank at Gruul, the tanks at VR, and tanks at Bloodboil etc.

 

Kamaa

I've been playing around with some of the new gear coming out in 2.4 and I noticed that the above is no longer true. I tried lowering my AP, Crit, Armor Pen, and Haste manually to see if any of these was the culprit. Hit rating outweighed agility in every situation. It would seem that the formula has changed. If the new spreadsheet is correct, then Hit Rating is better than Agility up to the hit cap.

As for the current dicussion, I will ALWAYS take salv over light. As of current fights, there is NEVER a situation where I need light to live. I know this, because I never run with 4 paladins. The affect on misdirect? Thus far it would seem the agreed upon loss is ~1000 maximum threat. An extra 1000 threat does not allow anybody to do more dps. If I ever see somebody 1000 threat behind the main tank, and they are about to fire a shot or cast a spell, I will smack them. If we were adding 5,000 - 10,000 threat which would allow for 1-2 more casts, then you'd have a point. Most raids have 3-4 hunters at most. 3,000 threat is nothing when I'm doing 4k burst and 2k sustained TPS on Gorefiend.

Salv over Wisdom? I've done this on RoS a couple times, but we usually give our tank group a shaman. When we get lust, he gets lust and WF is huge. I ride the line real close on the first and second FD sometimes, but I'm usually okay. I find myself auto shotting at times on Illidan, but I'd be OOM without Wisdom, so it's worth it.

Omegatron has arrived.

 

alienangel

I tend to take a 10 minute Salv over Wisdom on Gorefiend and RoS, but I usually have an Spriest for those fights anyway. It's insane the difference having Salve makes to threat in P2/P3 RoS.

On the plus side, last night my guild got to watch me FD, see my omenThreat clear, and then watch as a trash mob ignores the tank and about 6 other dps who were higher than me on Omen and beats on me while they kill it (tank DCd). So they don't think I'm completely incompetent for pulling aggro on Teron the other week and claiming I'd just Feigned successfully :S

 

KraxisSingular

Well, then you assume that they do in fact go beyond the normal threatcap you have set up. Before MD they would be dangerously close, and in fact in a position where you would want to smack them. I have to assume that your raidmembers don't act that way, or else you wouldn't have been able to stay together (regarding your actions for their behaviour). So on MD they will be behind the tank a bit, then that 1000 threat per Hunter can actually be enough for them to cast that extra attack or do another Sinister Strike or whatever they use. Without it they would still have to hold back but just be a little more behind.

You have to add the 1000 extra threat they can do to their current buffer as well as the overall MD 'bonus' threat. 1000 threat alone does nothing, I agree, but to to look at it as a pure 1000 threat is the wrong way of doing it.
Think of it this way: Salved MD = 0 extra attacks from everybody, just a little more buffer. Un-salved MD would allow 1 extra attack for most people, and eat a portion of the previous buffer, but still allow people to stay within the safe distance.
Of course it isn't like that for everybody at all, but it is the principle I was stressing.

 

Kamaa

But salv allows for potentially 30% more DPS from the hunter. That 1,000 threat is at most 1 more attack per DPS over a 2 minute span. It will allow at most ~1500 damage per attacker. Best case scenario, ~20 people do ~1500 more damage over 2 minutes. To make things easier, each raid member is also doing ~1500 DPS. You just allowed everybody to go from 180,000 damage to 181,500 damage over a two minute span. If your raid members do more DPS (and many will) then you are looking more like 240,000 - 241,500. The higher your raid DPS, the smaller a % of boost you get. For every FD your hunter spends a GCD on, or for every steady shot he skips, you just lost one of your 1500 damage bonuses. Again, the higher the hunters DPS, the less FD/Steady skips it takes to make the unsalved MD worthless. At 2K dps it's 15 combined.

With all that said, 15 sounds like a lot, and going without salv might be a good idea, but the truth is the majority of raids don't have 20 people all pushing the threat cap. You might have 5 people pushing the threat cap for a grand total of 7,500 extra damage. Any good hunter is guaranteed to be at the top of that threat meter for the first few minutes. Your hunter will FD 5 times, and there is a good chance he's gonnabe stuck auto shotting. Salvation is a great 4th blessing. It will increase your hunter and your raid DPS.

None of this really matters though. If you firmly believe the unsalved MD is worth it, make your pally salv after the MD(s) are cast. Everybody is happy. ;-)

Omegatron has arrived.

 

Ragnar

MD is great to let the tank establish aggro from the start. It can save healers that have big heals land on the pull, and can save over-zealous DPS that start a sec too soon. When tanks are pushing out 1k TPS, not having Salv for your MD buys them an additional second of threat building every 2 min. It allows raid members to do an additional 8 threat or so every 2 minutes. Say you have 3 hunters in the raid, that's still only an extra 24 TPS per person. Insignificant, in my opinion.

On the other hand, I take Salv as my 4th blessing because the only fight where I find myself threat-capped is Illidari Council, and that's because they're likely to resist 14 FDs in a row sometimes. And there, it's so long, and I use so many Mend Pets, that I'm happy for the extra mana.

Oddly, I've never found RoS to be a problem. On Illidan, I'll swap between Flames as needed if FD gets resisted in phase 2, and swap off for Parasites in phase 3. I'll grant you that phase 3 can be worrisome when your cooldowns are up.

Maybe with better gear, I would need it, but atm FD covers me for all the other fights. So given the choice, I'd rather have extra mana and drink less mana pots. If we have 4 pallies, I'll gladly take Salv so that I virtually don't even have to worry about my threat output.

 

alienangel

Odd, I've never had a threat issue with IC - although I spend huge amounts of time worrying about keeping myself and my pet alive, and swap some DPS gear for stam gear, so that may explain it. If all you're dpsing is the paladin, then the tank spell reflecting the spell he casts seems to keep threat from being an issue.

Illidan I've pretty much given up on trying to do meaningful DPS on it, and just trap/kill parasites, kill demons when they happen to wander into range, MD tanks, and generally try to stay out of everyone else's way.

RoS on the other hand I seem to cause a wipe about once a month by going in without Salve, thinking I'm safe in P3, and suddenly climbing 60k of threat in 10 seconds >.< So it's gotten to the point where if I'm not salved on that fight, I'll be incredibly cautious and end up 8th on damage or something instead of 2nd.