The Hunter Lounge - Theorycraft Within - Page 2

Enova · 10/13/07, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by Broulgan

/target (Your MT's name here)
/cast Misdirect
/cleartarget

Alternatively, you can use /assist as the last line, for easier target switching. While before a pull you have all the time you like to take your pick of the target, it usually helps if you don't have to look for the target halfway during a boss encounter for a second MD.

Trohck · 10/13/07, 3:53 PM

Originally Posted by Broulgan

I suggest adding a Misdirect macro that can just be copied and pasted. Nothing special, just something of the below variety.
/target (Your MT's name here)
/cast Misdirect
/cleartarget

I would probably use
/cast [target=MainTankName] Misdirection

One line and doesn't alter your target in any way.

Krikkit · 10/13/07, 7:03 PM

I use this

#showtooltip Misdirection
#show Misdirection
/cast [button:2] Misdirection
/stopmacro [button:2]
/cast [help] Misdirection
/stopmacro [help]
/target XXXXXXXX
/cast Misdirection
/targetlasttarget

KayossZero · 10/13/07, 7:24 PM

Originally Posted by Loshiis

What effect exactly does equipping a different set of arrows have on the instant cast status of Kill Command? I'll be going to test this, and I don't doubt your word that it works, but I'm interested as to *why* it works. Switching sets of arrows would seem to me to make getting both Kill Command and a special off at the same time impossible rather than possible. :p

Edit: Nevermind, tested it with and without arrow command, same deal. It would appear the only reason earlier macros did not work for me was the initial /stopcasting.

The cheap arrows/bullets are for shots that gain no benefit from expensive ammo, I typically bring 6-8 stacks of cheap ammo and 10-12 stacks of Warden/Fel bane, along with another 4-8 stacks in my bags depending on the instance.

As you can see saving 4-5~ gold a night on ammo is nice.

Loshiis · 10/13/07, 7:58 PM

Originally Posted by KayossZero

The cheap arrows/bullets are for shots that gain no benefit from expensive ammo, I typically bring 6-8 stacks of cheap ammo and 10-12 stacks of Warden/Fel bane, along with another 4-8 stacks in my bags depending on the instance.

As you can see saving 4-5~ gold a night on ammo is nice.

Well, there is a problem with arrow switching macros on the Kael fight, as you are given different ammo halfway through the fight. Although I'm far too lazy to carry two sets of arrows when I raid (maybe that will change once I begin to use Timeless Arrows), if you do use a macro like this, I would suggest not using it on the Kael fight.

Oh, and here's my personal Misdirection macro:

#showtooltip Misdirection
/cast [help] Misdirection; [target=focus,help] Misdirection

KayossZero · 10/13/07, 8:29 PM

Originally Posted by Loshiis

Well, there is a problem with arrow switching macros on the Kael fight, as you are given different ammo halfway through the fight. Although I'm far too lazy to carry two sets of arrows when I raid (maybe that will change once I begin to use Timeless Arrows), if you do use a macro like this, I would suggest not using it on the Kael fight.

Oh, and here's my personal Misdirection macro:

#showtooltip Misdirection
/cast [help] Misdirection; [target=focus,help] Misdirection

#showtooltip Arcane Shot
/equip Rough Arrow
/cast Arcane Shot
/equip Warden's Arrow
/equip Nether Spike
/cast [target=pettarget, exists] Lightning Breath
/castrandom [target=pettarget,exists] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

As long as you have the KT ammo as the last ammo to be equiped you will have no issues.

Modran · 10/13/07, 8:46 PM

greetings comrades!

firstly, I'd also like to thank everyone for making this website what it is

I've been reading alot of the threads recently and I've found all those facts and figures very interesting indeed... but I've got a few questions I'd like to ask. I'm posting this because I'm not happy with my dps performance in raids and just wanted to see what I can dig up

Just some info about my hunter:

- I use a Wind Serpent for PvP and PvE purposes.
- I use this macro for SS: (arcane shot is sometimes added to the rotation)
#showtooltip Steady Shot
/script UIErrorsFrame:Hide()
/castsequence reset=3 Steady Shot, Auto Shot
/cast [target=pettarget] Kill Command
/script UIErrorsFrame:Clear(); UIErrorsFrame:Show()
- I am currently using this build - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
- My ranged attack speed is 2.10 without Rapid Fire or IAotH
- I've got around 26.7% crit chance, +5% hit and 1717AP unbuffed

Basically I was wondering why my dps isn't that great in raids - I usually come up #4-#6 on the dmg meters in SSC, gruul or the eye. Anybody got some sensible suggestions for improvement?

In addition to that, I've been thinking about replacing my Wind serpent with a cat... I know for a fact that Wind Serpents suck but how big will the difference be, if i switch? (in terms of dps)

Lastly, I read that the RED meta gem was bugged and was hoping if anybody knows whether its been fixed in the recent patch or not.

Thanks in advance!

Zurai · 10/13/07, 10:02 PM

Originally Posted by Modran

I know for a fact that Wind Serpents suck but how big will the difference be, if i switch? (in terms of dps)

That's what Blizzard's forums would have you believe, but it isn't true. Generally speaking, Wind Serpents are still the best DPS pets, and scale better with gear than anything else, so they'll continue to be the best DPS pets.

One thing you can do to improve your DPS is to add a line to your macro:

/cast Lightning Breath

and turn off autocasting of LB on your pet. When the pet autocasts LB, it has the tendency to fly out of melee range, stop, cast LB, sit there for a second, then fly back into range. That wastes a lot of DPS time. Adding that line to the macro prevents the caster mob AI from screwing you up.

Another thing to do is switch to 5/5 IAOTH in your talent spec. Drop the points from Thick Hide - they're almost completely useless in current PvE. I would also snag Improved Mend Pet and Improved Revive Pet if I were you, but those aren't directly DPS-increasing.

Glaurong · 10/14/07, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Zurai

That's what Blizzard's forums would have you believe, but it isn't true. Generally speaking, Wind Serpents are still the best DPS pets, and scale better with gear than anything else, so they'll continue to be the best DPS pets.

This isn't necessarily true. If you run a stacked group and your pet gets the right blessings, a cat or ravager will pull ahead of a wind serpent. Not by a huge margin but 5-10% depending on how stacked the group is, how often you use Kill Command and if your raid runs a good SV hunter. On Teron Gorefiend the other night my Ravager was doing just about 600 dps, group was 3 hunters (2 BM, 1 SV), 1 enh shaman and 1 shadow priest. Another hunter in the group was running a WS and it was just slightly behind my Ravager, about 550 or so.

Zurai · 10/14/07, 1:50 PM

Originally Posted by Glaurong

This isn't necessarily true. If you run a stacked group and your pet gets the right blessings, a cat or ravager will pull ahead of a wind serpent. Not by a huge margin but 5-10% depending on how stacked the group is, how often you use Kill Command and if your raid runs a good SV hunter. On Teron Gorefiend the other night my Ravager was doing just about 600 dps, group was 3 hunters (2 BM, 1 SV), 1 enh shaman and 1 shadow priest. Another hunter in the group was running a WS and it was just slightly behind my Ravager, about 550 or so.

The only thing that cats and ravagers have over windserpents is +3% damage on autoattack and KC. The wind serpent, on the other hand, has the advantage of doing 2-3 times the damage per special, and having its special affected by Misery, Stormstrike, and so on.

The only qualifier with wind serpents is that they're very dependant on crit rate. If you have a low crit rate, a wind serpent may well underperform.

Loeff · 10/14/07, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

Anything that increases spell damage in general or nature damage in specific will increase the damage from Serpent Sting.

I would hold on off on including this statement. I don't remember how it was on Live (since it's been forever since I used Serpent Sting), but my testing on PTR seems to indicate that Serpent Sting does NOT benefit from +magic dmg items or buffs. Same with Arcane Shot. No benefit in +magic dmg buffs.

Contrary to this, Volley seems to still gain benefit from +magic dmg buffs.

Jab · 10/14/07, 8:30 PM

I would like some thoerycraft about the viability of armor penetration in comparison to raw ap.
The general consensus is something like: 1AGI >= 2RAP = 1CRIT = ??armor penetration.

Oh and how does your windserpent dish out those huge numbers? I'm quite content mine does 380 dps or so, but 500+ seems way out of reach. (I'm mostly in Kara-Items with a few SSC/TK sprinkled here and there)

tahdingo · 10/14/07, 9:24 PM

so I was wondering, is it possible to get enough haste from ZA items/DST/Imp AotH to beat BM hunters' DPS with Marks?

JuhnorX · 10/15/07, 7:09 AM

Just wanted to drop this in, it's my MD Macro with shift MT modifier.

Target your tank use shift and macro click to set the focus target and it will lock that tank as your focus target, then simply target what your pulling click macro and pull. If you don't set a focus you will MD to your pet.

#showtooltip Misdirection
/focus [modifier:shift, exists] target
/stopmacro [modifier:shift]
/cast [target=focus, help] misdirection; [help] misdirection; [target=pet, exists] misdirection
/ra Misdirecting %t to %f

Just be careful to check who you're MDing to, last night I MD'd the daggers on Kael to our Lock Capernian tank instead of Warrior.. A silly wipe.

Kaladian · 10/15/07, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by Jab

I would like some thoerycraft about the viability of armor penetration in comparison to raw ap.
The general consensus is something like: 1AGI >= 2RAP = 1CRIT = ??armor penetration.

Oh and how does your windserpent dish out those huge numbers? I'm quite content mine does 380 dps or so, but 500+ seems way out of reach. (I'm mostly in Kara-Items with a few SSC/TK sprinkled here and there)

Same here, in less that the best groups my cat/WS/Ravager all do right around 330-350. We dont run with a SV hunter either. Please post some WWS of this if you have one. That is very impressive.

Wunlastri · 10/15/07, 11:48 AM

Humbly request Survival be changed to SV.

Also, as a hunter who enjoys dailies, I often get new pets to level up. Right now I am mostly content with a frost/nature wolf, fire/arcane cat, and shadow ravager. I'm pondering switching from Wolf to Wind Serpent, but don't know the best place to find them, OR if me being survival works better for my wolf since it's physical DPS.

Zurai · 10/15/07, 3:28 PM

Originally Posted by Loeff

I would hold on off on including this statement. I don't remember how it was on Live (since it's been forever since I used Serpent Sting), but my testing on PTR seems to indicate that Serpent Sting does NOT benefit from +magic dmg items or buffs. Same with Arcane Shot. No benefit in +magic dmg buffs.

Contrary to this, Volley seems to still gain benefit from +magic dmg buffs.

I meant debuffs on mobs, not gear (ie, stuff that does "+5% spell damage taken" or "+20% nature damage on next attack", etc). Everyone knows that precisely zero of our shots and traps are affected by spell damage.

Zurai · 10/15/07, 3:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jab

Oh and how does your windserpent dish out those huge numbers? I'm quite content mine does 380 dps or so, but 500+ seems way out of reach. (I'm mostly in Kara-Items with a few SSC/TK sprinkled here and there)

The person who posted that was talking about Teron Gorefiend, a mob that A) has little to no armor, and B) is in the middle of tier 6 progression. You're not going to be able to reproduce those results on a typical boss with kara level gear.

Kaladian · 10/15/07, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

The person who posted that was talking about Teron Gorefiend, a mob that A) has little to no armor, and B) is in the middle of tier 6 progression. You're not going to be able to reproduce those results on a typical boss with kara level gear.

Just looked at our Teron kill last week and the only BM hunter's pet did 358 dps. Like i said show me a WWS of a after poison nerf pet doing 600 DPS. I checked WWS for kills after the nerf went live and the highest i found was 464 now pre-nerf pets were gettign in the 800DPS range.

Jab · 10/15/07, 4:55 PM

Okay, thank you guys, I was getting worried I did something wrong =)

Windserpents can best be found in the Netherstorm in the Vortex Fields or generally there's a few around the Cosmowrench (couple of lvl 69ish WS there)

Still, could someone give me a numbercrunch on +armor penetration?
Oh and does your pet benefit from this particular stat?

Grondarg · 10/15/07, 4:56 PM

I have been MM for most of the time since BC was released. I believe I took it as far as could from a PvE standpoint. So I've recently switched to SV for better benefits to the raid. From this standpoint I really believe that the top dps spec for mm is 19/42/0 with a 1:1.5 shot rotation. It doesn't have IAotH because moving to a 1:1 rotation for quick shots is a loss of dps. If you could maintain a 1:1.5 with quick shots it should outperform the spec above but I suspect there might be some shot clipping. I have yet to try and model it on Cheeky's spreadsheet. I personally ran with 18/43/0 just because Silence shot annoys so many casters.

Of course the key to maintaining dps with MM is consumables. Mageblood, Mana Oil, BoWisdom, AoV, and Super mana pots every cooldown. But this tends to get really expensive espcially on progression attempts. Also with this spec you'll want to take as much care of your pet as a Full BM hunter as it's a significant dps loss when your pet dies.

orinaccio · 10/15/07, 4:59 PM

Long time reader, first time poster.

Ive looked at the new 2.3 gear with interest and once again I feel a sense of disappointment with the itemization for hunters (not enough stuff; too many shammy mail) but one thing in particular has me raising an eyebrow -

Quite a few new hunter gear from 2.3 has Haste Rating stats. Wouldnt all these haste rating stats throw many MM and SS hunters' shot rotations out of whack? I'd be interested in hearing from some of the more learned hunters here what the implications might be with all these haste rating stats that Im seeing for hunters.

Wunlastri · 10/15/07, 5:12 PM

Relisting unanswered questions (not all from me);

As a SV hunter, is a wolf better than a Wind Serpent despite scaling?
Could someone give me a numbercrunch on +armor penetration?
Oh and does your pet benefit from this particular stat?
1AGI >= 2RAP = 1CRIT = ??armor penetration.
Is it possible to get enough haste from ZA items/DST/Imp AotH to beat BM hunters' DPS with Marks?

broken_messiah · 10/15/07, 5:15 PM

Lactose, I was reading over the Expose Weakness portion of your post and I feel you should mention that the uptime of the debuff is dependent upon crit rate. In order to get a true representation of actual DPS added to the raid, your calculation should look like this:

Based on this, the actual DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as
(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3*[EW Uptime]

If anyone is unsure of how to get their average uptime, you can find it by using Cheeky's spreadsheet and moving to the calculations tab.

Glaurong · 10/15/07, 5:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

As a SV hunter, is a wolf better than a Wind Serpent despite scaling?

Even with 5 physical damage dealers in your party, Furious Howl is only ~25 dps. In pretty much every situation Lightning Breath will do more than this.

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

Could someone give me a numbercrunch on +armor penetration?
Oh and does your pet benefit from this particular stat?
1AGI >= 2RAP = 1CRIT = ??armor penetration.

Use Cheeky's sheet to determine the relative weighting of stats (including armor penetration). Use the [RAID] Boss Armor Values thread to get appropriate armor values to enter into the sheet.

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

Is it possible to get enough haste from ZA items/DST/Imp AotH to beat BM hunters' DPS with Marks?

There was already a thread linked about a haste rating analysis Kaber did. Things probably changed quite a bit after the haste nerf but that would be a good starting point. A bit of math and playing around with the spreadsheet will get you the rest of the way there.