Keltan

No. A wolf is not an optimal pet for any spec. Cats/Raptors/Ravagers/Wind Serpents are your "highest damage" pet choices.

Pets do not benefit from your Armor Penetration/Ignore Armor.

 

Wunlastri

But..but Furious Howl!!

Really? Ok, how would you compare a Raptor to a WS then?

 

Jab

Thank you, that means I will stick to straight agi/ap mail. (Why get armor penetration, when equal ilvled gear gets AP, which does benefit your pet)

 

Loeff

Gotcha. Except Volley. For some reason, Volley seems to benefit from +magic damage buffs. It'd be nice if this scaled with RAP too. I might use it more than just farming.

Also, interesting little thing I noticed, Ranged Weapon Specialization does NOT affect Serpent Sting or Volley, even though both require a ranged weapon. This might be all something everyone knows, but if you're looking to gather all this random info in one spot, it'd be worth adding.

This space for rent.

 

Keltan

Disclaimer: These are the items with the maximum amount of haste rating for each slot. These items are not likely to be the "best" for every single one of these slots, but this is the maximum amount of haste rating available to a hunter at this time.

1% haste = 15.8 haste rating

405 Haste Rating / 15.8 = ~25.63% haste (Thanks Tsook!)
Quiver Haste = 15%

Hasted speed = Base Weapon Speed / (Haste Increase from Rating * Haste Increase from Quiver)

Hasted Attack Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (1.2563 * 1.15)
Hasted Attack Speed = Base Weapon Speed / 1.445

2.21 = 3.2 / 1.445
2.15 = 3.1 / 1.445
2.08 = 3.0 / 1.445
2.00 = 2.9 / 1.445
1.94 = 2.8 / 1.445
1.87 = 2.7 / 1.445
1.80 = 2.6 / 1.445
1.73 = 2.5 / 1.445
1.66 = 2.4 / 1.445


So, with the absolute maximum amount of haste gear available in the game (that I + Tsook could find.)
Base Weapon Speed --> Hasted Weapon Speed
3.2 --> 2.21
3.1 --> 2.15
3.0 --> 2.08
2.9 --> 2.00
2.8 --> 1.94
2.7 --> 1.87
2.6 --> 1.80
2.5 --> 1.73
2.4 --> 1.66

*I think I did that math right...*

 

Zurai

Volley is neither a shot nor a trap

Looks right to me. So, MM hunters can get almost the same passive haste as BM hunters get through talents, but they have to devote pretty much the entirety of their gear to it and have literally no leeway in gear choices. It also won't affect their pet.

 

Fuulish

From reading the previous post, I was wondering, which of the various haste effects actually affect Steady Shot cast time? I know that BM Serpent's Swiftness does and that quiver haste doesn't. Can someone list the ones that do and don't?

Thanks

 

Keltan

Quiver Haste, Serpent's Swiftness, Dragonspine Trophy and haste rating all affect the Steady Shot cast time.

 

Loshiis

MM Spec Question:

15/43/3 vs 7/48/6

Essentially, the argument is whether 20% pet damage > minor agility boost, humanoid slaying, and better arcane shot weaving.

How much of a factor is -.8/-1 (depending on spec preference) on arcane shot weaving? I can see that with the talent you would be able to weave arcane shot in on every other set, but I've never done a hard DPS calculation on it. Basically, what are the opinions of Hunters who have tried imp arcane shot vs not having it on its usefulness?

(Note: My current spec is hybrid PvP/PvE...don't ask :p)

 

• Tsook

Max passive haste rating is 405 currently AFAICT, bringing a 1:1 rotation well into the realm of possibility for MM or Surv hunters.

Head: No haste item available, but 10 rating from [Arcanum of Rapidity]
Neck: [The Savage's Choker]
Shoulder: [Swiftstrike Shoulders] (or [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] for one less)
Back: [Crystalweave Cape] (or [Cloak of Fiends] for one less)
Chest: [Arrow-fall Chestguard]
Wrist: [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
Hands: [Fists of Mukoa] + 10 rating from Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste
Waist: [Shadow-walker's Cord] (or [Valestalker Girdle] for one less)
Legs: [Shallow-grave Trousers] + 10 rating from [Arcanum of Rapidity]
Feet: No haste item available
Finger: [Band of Devastation]
Finger: [Band of Devastation]
Trinket: No passive haste available
2H Weapon: [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
Ranged: [Tuskbreaker]

 

Keltan

Ahh crap. I didn't realize Band of Devasation wasn't Unique, forgot about the Arcanums, and missed the shoulders somehow. I'll go back and recalculate my post above.

 

Enova

I've been thinking about such a possibility as a possible end game setup for survival, and i must say i'm pretty impressed with the compilation you just listed. However, i'm pretty sure if i had unrestricted access to all of the above, i'd still try and squeeze in a 2 piece tier 5 bonus, as it is now. Most likely the helm and shoulders in my case, but that's just a clean case of adversion to t6 graphics. And of course, no DST with that gear ...

And one more thing i'd hope for is a 2.6 ish base peed weapon, to somewhat reduce the need for passive haste and allow for more flexibility in stat stacking.

I'll be busy fiddling with the spreadsheets for quite a while now...

Guilty as charged ^

 

Gurth

I don't think it's worth as survival, the amount of stats you sacrifice for getting enough haste is something to not overlook.

To me looks like that armor penetration is a much more valuable stat as hunter, according a 1:1,5 rotation and a SV spec. 3.00 bow allows you to avoid most clipping and if you're latency is really good even going for a bit of haste.

As MM might be worth, mainly cause your shots hits for much more than SV and get more AP to work on. Still you need to do some serious testing about it.

 

Lindelle

IMO, MM should steer clear of getting too much haste and instead delve into Armor Penetration if you had to choose one or the other. In my opinion, the problem with trying to do a 1:1 rotation an MM is that in BC, Multi is not something you can skip in your rotation. I think of MM as having its DPS based off of the proper rotation and usage of the multiple specials instead of insane haste like BM is.

Having too much haste as an MM will mess up your rotation.

To me, what Gurth said should also apply to MM hunters.

 

Cheeky

Since MM 1:1.5 rotation utilizes a high frequency of Arcane Shot you get less from Armor Penetration %-wise than would a BM Hunter in a 1:1 rotation (especially with just Steadies).

I believe Armor Penetration is a huge BM stat because once you get enough of it the base 20% RAP scaling of Steady Shot will outpace the 15% scaling of Arcane Shot and Arcane can be dropped from the rotation altogether. Because of the nature of 1:1.5 a MM/Survival Hunter can never afford to drop Arcane shot, even if Steady Shot starts to out damage it.

I plan on stacking as much Armor Penetration as possible once the gear is available to me. The simplicity and mana effiecency of the Auto:Steady rotation frees up my attention to other parts of the encounter.

Cheeky of Havoc

 

• Tsook

That's an interesting thought, Cheeky. I was BM before it was flavor of the month and plan to stay BM unless something dramatically changes to make it not viable. From that perspective, I was discounting armor penetration since it generally comes at the cost of crit, which reduces my pet dps -- in addition to armor penetration not affecting the pet at all (well, I suppose it increases Health Link healing, but that's the only effect I can see :P ).

I haven't worked out the numbers to see where the inflection point is for armor penetration vs. arcane shot, and if that's attainable -- not to mention whether the loss in pet dps is worth it. I suppose once you've got penetration working right on custom gear on your spreadsheet, I'll play around with it and see. Maybe I can't discount this stat after all.

 

Hoverpuma

Out of curiosity, why the term "1:1.5" rather than "2:3"? I recognize that the former seems to be the standard term here, but I find that when I'm trying to explain the concept to guildmates, the latter does a better job of conveying what I'm talking about, and tends to head off the knee-jerk "zomg how do I fire 1.5 shots lol" questions.

On Trap Mastery: Can those numbers be affected by a mob with innate frost resistance (in addition to the resist chance due to level difference), making 2/2 Trap Mastery not entirely worthless?

On pets: A sentence on the concept of a focus dump ability might be useful, since GFTT throws a naive "damage/focus" effectiveness metric to the wind. Also, I've found many people who were confused about the (lack of) scaling of Great Stamina and Natural Armor; a quick note on which pet abilities are worth the training points might be nice.

Another useful line might include class-specific mods and their effective use. (I'm primarily thinking of Quartz or some other shot timer.) Normally, that might be a little out of scope for a theorycraft thread, but since DPS is so dependent on shot timing, it may be worth a reference.

 

Osse

As it is now with my current gear (note: I dont even have 4 set t6 yet) I do more damage with pure 1:1 rotation. Dont know if it's the same with 3.0 speed weapon yet but I cant really test it out because of the racial.

2.3 will have a sweet addition to my gear setup as well: http://www.mmo-champion.com/images/n...r_bad_mojo.jpg

 

Luciellena

Something I personally feel is important to mention is the need for some semblance of balance between a Hunter's RAP and a Hunter's crit % and how stacking one while neglecting the other will hurt your potential DPS due to diminishing returns.

The best way I have found to illustrate this idea is by using something like following example:

Now, this is a very simple illustration and there are more variables involved, but I have always found something like this to be the easiest for people to understand.

 

Grogzor

I actually calculated that out using Cheeky's Spreadsheet a while ago with the X and Y axis being based on the equivalent itemization points of the AP and Crit Rating.

I only did this for BM though with a Raptor though. Let me find the post.

Beast Mastery Bible

But when it comes time for me to remove your wings, and you, you must try to fly...

Click Here to see what makes me tic(k).

What Are You Going to Roll for Warhammer Online?

 

Sapa

Lactose 0.3 is value we got with t4-t5 gear and it variated quite some between classes at that time. I propose that we redo the calculations and break it into class specific gain.
Just have to find friendly melee classes to do some clicking in their spreadsheets for us (including tanks). I'm sure EJ forums have such nice people around.

Spreadsheet data with most common specs/rotations on same boss (lvl/armor) wold be ok. Buffs should be somewhat standard per class to. (Rogues with WF and BS, but no LotP - Hunters with GoA or LotP - Warriors with WF, no LotP...) What are standard buffs per class?

This would require help from other classes so I propose that we make "Hunter asks, Melee answers" thread or try to get answers here.

But in any case we should define target, gear, buffs and EW Value.

Target: 73 lvl boss with 6200 OR 7700 armor. (both values are common in SSC->BT)
Debuffs on target: 5x Sunder, FF, CoR, Imp.HM
Standard Buffs: 5/5 Might, Kings and other standard raidwide buffs. (is there anyone that doesn't have 5/5 Might paladin on raids?)

Class group/personal buffs extras:
Rogue(Dagger and Sword/Mace?): Flask, WF, Imp.BS, Str.Totem
DPS War(2hand/2wield?): Flask, WF, Imp.BS, Str.Totem
CatFeral: Flask?, Str.Totem, GoA, 3% FI
R.Paladin: ???, Str.Totem, WF, Imp.BS, SancAura
Enh.Shaman: Flask, Totems, Imp.BS, Unleashed Furry.
--
Tanks:
Prot War: WF yes/no?
Feral: Str.Totem, GoA, 3% FI

Gear:
1. Up to and including Kael/Vashy loot
2. Top1 Gear setup (T6)

EW Value: 250ap (1.000 agility, its something t5 hunter reaches easily)

Any comments, suggestions? I proposed buffs on personal experience and I'm sure some people would like to have T4/Heroic (Karazan) included. And I probably overlooked something too . This should be done with 2.3 patch changes in mind too.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...jerks/Sapa.png

 

Sapa

Bit help on the hunter mega thread.

Hit and Miss can in 2.3 patch be only negated by Hit Rating. Total 9% Hit rating required for +3level mob (73 bosses) to negate miss still stands.

Weapon skill is obsolete with 2.3. All Weapon Skill gear gets converted to Weapon Expertise and in Hunter case (Ranged Weapon Skils to other stats (like Hit/Crit).
Troll/Dwarf racials get changed from +5 skill with bow/gun to +1% crit.

So regardless of your current bonus (troll/dwarf/items) weapon skill. 142 hit rating will be required or 96 hit rating for SV hunters with 3/3 Surefooted in 2.3 patch.


Survival - 0/20/41 - Endgame PvE only.
Link:Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
2 points loose in Survival t1-2 trees, trading Imp.HM with Efficiency possible.
Rotation: 1.5:1
Gear Aim: High Agility, 96 hit rating, No Haste
Pros: High HP, High Raid DPS value, 2x chain anything (MD, Deterrence, Trap, FD), Independent, Minimal Pet management.
Cons: No Scatter, 1 per raid group, Strictly PvE, Demanding on focus, Demanding mana usage on all-out.
Edit: 27.12.2007 - We are in stage of testing "castrandom KC - cast Special" macros to determine possible use of KC in 1:1.5 rotation. More on that in Survival Raiding thread.

User Description:
I have been playing with Survival trough SSC/TK/Hyall and now doing BT.
7/20/34 proved to demand 2 people playing and wanting most group support.
0/28/33 was to mana (SP) demanding. Fights in TBC are not short so this build faces problems.
0/24/37 was(is) really good and versatile for PvE/PvE. But Readiness has proved to save more wipes than extra dps from bigger multi shots.

Why 2/3 EW? I have 41% critical chance with ranged attacks without group buffs (MT not counted in). Just standard raid buffs. Uptime of EW does not suffer but 3/3 TotH does show the difference. Your uptime change from going 3/3 vs 2/3 EW can be seen in Spreadsheet.
Edit: 27.12.2007 - Progressed now up to Ilidian. Changed spec somehow. We had lots of progress raids lately (and progress raids happen here if farm is wipeless and fast) and one thing I was doing to speed things up on farm content&prolong progress attempts is keeping Scorpid Sting up as much as possible. This increased my mana/5 consumption and 3/3 TotH was not enough. However switching to AotV at low mana was (Blasphemy!). It actually became to more than needed, coupled with lots of dynamic encounters (moving) that reduce shot frequency I went back to 3/3 EW to be able to keep it up on encounters with lots of moving or shot interruptions. 2/3 & 3/3 EW still holds true for static fights when you don't delay or interrupt your rotation by moving or incoming damage. General advice would be IF you can manage your rotation without 3/3 TotH, do it.

How does Readiness help?
2x MD is something most common, raids with single hunter should really feel this.
2x Deterrence, some people might laugh here. But when you see hunter tank raid bosses at those 2-5% with only few people still standing or seeing hunter catch and tank loose adds till tank comes by gives something to think. On one really fun Naj'etenus fight I was tanking him well over a minute.
2x FD - Best thing with Readiness. Fixes all those moments where resisted FD forces you to literary stops your DPS for 15-20 seconds. (like first FD in fight that get resisted) and secondly you will survive wipes more reliably saving your time/gold/consumables and sometimes will save raid/morale if your Engi.Cables work (trash cleaning in case of 0 SS, Ankhs...)
2x (any)Trap - Kiting hunters in Hyall will notice this to be sometimes difference between those Taurens/Thrall in your AoE or staying at their Camp. (might vary with tactic, hamstring warrior + 3 hunter kiters or just 1-2 hunters kiting..) Trapping 2 infernals kiting one might save you some cows for Azgalor Doomguards.
With 2.3 and removal of DZ chain snake trapping raid bosses with dangerous targeted abilities like Rage Winterchill's IceCube might become quite nice addition. (random boss targeting targets snakes)

Recommendations:
* Alchemy Stone - Due high mana usage of SV specs, this stone is making a huge difference even with most mana efficient SV spec.
* Use Rapid Fire only while Bloodlusted or low on mana, use pure steady rotation here.
* Watch where your melee dps is on fights with many adds, try to mark and hit their target as much as possible.
* Be prepared to use super mana pots, fel mana pots and mana/5 consumables.
* Use WindSerpent, the build has quite big critical rate and generates large amounts of focus. With ravager I can hardly climb to 200 pet dps, while WS pushed up to 250 dps.

http://sig.gamerdna.com/quizzes/INFL...jerks/Sapa.png

 

◊ Lactose

Sorry for the apparent neglection of this thread, I've been extremely busy at work and real life lately. Me, Cheeky and Howitzer have big updates planned for within this weekend =)
I'm going to parse through both this one and several other Hunter threads here, for useful information (like the post from Sapa just above).

Again, sorry for the current shape of this thread, we'll get it sorted shortly =)

Also, I would like to ask people with very specific questions (with my current gear/spec/DKP which item should I upgrade next, here's my WWS, etc) to stick to this thread in general.

Look, Lactose, we'd rather you didn't eradicate the whole human race.
- Sam & Max

 

Wunlastri

That'd be great if you could show me what values of AP/Crit/etc = what numbers and if they change for spec. Like how much AP = 7?

Also, is there a way to keep my WS from going into melee since his focus is usually maxed out?

 

Luciellena

I always used the illustration to basically get the light bulb in someone's head to go off but Grogzor did a bit of work on the actual AP and crit %. Here is the link again:

[Hunter] BM Raiding Hunters in 2.1 Theorycrafting

For your Windserpent problem, do you have Lightning Breath on Auto Cast? If you do, then turn the Auto Cast off and add the following line to a macro you use frequently.

/castrandom Lightning Breath

This will allow your Windserpent to cast Lightning Breath without have to run out from the mob.