The Hunter Lounge - Theorycraft Within - Page 4

Grondarg · 10/15/07, 3:56 PM

I have been MM for most of the time since BC was released. I believe I took it as far as could from a PvE standpoint. So I've recently switched to SV for better benefits to the raid. From this standpoint I really believe that the top dps spec for mm is 19/42/0 with a 1:1.5 shot rotation. It doesn't have IAotH because moving to a 1:1 rotation for quick shots is a loss of dps. If you could maintain a 1:1.5 with quick shots it should outperform the spec above but I suspect there might be some shot clipping. I have yet to try and model it on Cheeky's spreadsheet. I personally ran with 18/43/0 just because Silence shot annoys so many casters.

Of course the key to maintaining dps with MM is consumables. Mageblood, Mana Oil, BoWisdom, AoV, and Super mana pots every cooldown. But this tends to get really expensive espcially on progression attempts. Also with this spec you'll want to take as much care of your pet as a Full BM hunter as it's a significant dps loss when your pet dies.

orinaccio · 10/15/07, 3:59 PM

Long time reader, first time poster.

Ive looked at the new 2.3 gear with interest and once again I feel a sense of disappointment with the itemization for hunters (not enough stuff; too many shammy mail) but one thing in particular has me raising an eyebrow -

Quite a few new hunter gear from 2.3 has Haste Rating stats. Wouldnt all these haste rating stats throw many MM and SS hunters' shot rotations out of whack? I'd be interested in hearing from some of the more learned hunters here what the implications might be with all these haste rating stats that Im seeing for hunters.

Wunlastri · 10/15/07, 4:12 PM

Relisting unanswered questions (not all from me);

As a SV hunter, is a wolf better than a Wind Serpent despite scaling?
Could someone give me a numbercrunch on +armor penetration?
Oh and does your pet benefit from this particular stat?
1AGI >= 2RAP = 1CRIT = ??armor penetration.
Is it possible to get enough haste from ZA items/DST/Imp AotH to beat BM hunters' DPS with Marks?

broken_messiah · 10/15/07, 4:15 PM

Lactose, I was reading over the Expose Weakness portion of your post and I feel you should mention that the uptime of the debuff is dependent upon crit rate. In order to get a true representation of actual DPS added to the raid, your calculation should look like this:

Based on this, the actual DPS gain from an Expose Weakness proc can be written as
(Agility/4)*[Physical DPS in Raid]*0.3*[EW Uptime]

If anyone is unsure of how to get their average uptime, you can find it by using Cheeky's spreadsheet and moving to the calculations tab.

Glaurong · 10/15/07, 4:34 PM

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

As a SV hunter, is a wolf better than a Wind Serpent despite scaling?

Even with 5 physical damage dealers in your party, Furious Howl is only ~25 dps. In pretty much every situation Lightning Breath will do more than this.

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

Could someone give me a numbercrunch on +armor penetration?
Oh and does your pet benefit from this particular stat?
1AGI >= 2RAP = 1CRIT = ??armor penetration.

Use Cheeky's sheet to determine the relative weighting of stats (including armor penetration). Use the [RAID] Boss Armor Values thread to get appropriate armor values to enter into the sheet.

Originally Posted by Wunlastri

Is it possible to get enough haste from ZA items/DST/Imp AotH to beat BM hunters' DPS with Marks?

There was already a thread linked about a haste rating analysis Kaber did. Things probably changed quite a bit after the haste nerf but that would be a good starting point. A bit of math and playing around with the spreadsheet will get you the rest of the way there.

Keltan · 10/15/07, 4:36 PM

As a SV hunter, is a wolf better than a Wind Serpent despite scaling?

No. A wolf is not an optimal pet for any spec. Cats/Raptors/Ravagers/Wind Serpents are your "highest damage" pet choices.

Could someone give me a numbercrunch on +armor penetration?
Oh and does your pet benefit from this particular stat?

Pets do not benefit from your Armor Penetration/Ignore Armor.

Wunlastri · 10/15/07, 4:39 PM

But..but Furious Howl!!

Really? Ok, how would you compare a Raptor to a WS then?

Jab · 10/15/07, 4:48 PM

Originally Posted by Keltan

Pets do not benefit from your Armor Penetration/Ignore Armor.

Thank you, that means I will stick to straight agi/ap mail. (Why get armor penetration, when equal ilvled gear gets AP, which does benefit your pet)

Loeff · 10/15/07, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Zurai

I meant debuffs on mobs, not gear (ie, stuff that does "+5% spell damage taken" or "+20% nature damage on next attack", etc).

Gotcha.

Everyone knows that precisely zero of our shots and traps are affected by spell damage.

Except Volley. For some reason, Volley seems to benefit from +magic damage buffs. It'd be nice if this scaled with RAP too. I might use it more than just farming.

Also, interesting little thing I noticed, Ranged Weapon Specialization does NOT affect Serpent Sting or Volley, even though both require a ranged weapon. This might be all something everyone knows, but if you're looking to gather all this random info in one spot, it'd be worth adding.

Keltan · 10/15/07, 5:03 PM

Is it possible to get enough haste from ZA items/DST/Imp AotH to beat BM hunters' DPS with Marks?

Originally Posted by Tsook

Max passive haste rating is 405 currently AFAICT, bringing a 1:1 rotation well into the realm of possibility for MM or Surv hunters.

Head: No haste item available, but 10 rating from [Arcanum of Rapidity]
Neck: [The Savage's Choker]
Shoulder: [Swiftstrike Shoulders] (or [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] for one less)
Back: [Crystalweave Cape] (or [Cloak of Fiends] for one less)
Chest: [Arrow-fall Chestguard]
Wrist: [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
Hands: [Fists of Mukoa] + 10 rating from Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste
Waist: [Shadow-walker's Cord] (or [Valestalker Girdle] for one less)
Legs: [Shallow-grave Trousers] + 10 rating from [Arcanum of Rapidity]
Feet: No haste item available
Finger: [Band of Devastation]
Finger: [Band of Devastation]
Trinket: No passive haste available
2H Weapon: [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
Ranged: [Tuskbreaker]

Disclaimer: These are the items with the maximum amount of haste rating for each slot. These items are not likely to be the "best" for every single one of these slots, but this is the maximum amount of haste rating available to a hunter at this time.

1% haste = 15.8 haste rating

405 Haste Rating / 15.8 = ~25.63% haste (Thanks Tsook!)
Quiver Haste = 15%

Hasted speed = Base Weapon Speed / (Haste Increase from Rating * Haste Increase from Quiver)

Hasted Attack Speed = Base Weapon Speed / (1.2563 * 1.15)
Hasted Attack Speed = Base Weapon Speed / 1.445

2.21 = 3.2 / 1.445
2.15 = 3.1 / 1.445
2.08 = 3.0 / 1.445
2.00 = 2.9 / 1.445
1.94 = 2.8 / 1.445
1.87 = 2.7 / 1.445
1.80 = 2.6 / 1.445
1.73 = 2.5 / 1.445
1.66 = 2.4 / 1.445

So, with the absolute maximum amount of haste gear available in the game (that I + Tsook could find.)
Base Weapon Speed --> Hasted Weapon Speed
3.2 --> 2.21
3.1 --> 2.15
3.0 --> 2.08
2.9 --> 2.00
2.8 --> 1.94
2.7 --> 1.87
2.6 --> 1.80
2.5 --> 1.73
2.4 --> 1.66

*I think I did that math right...*

Zurai · 10/15/07, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Loeff

Gotcha.
Except Volley. For some reason, Volley seems to benefit from +magic damage buffs.

Volley is neither a shot nor a trap

Originally Posted by Keltan

*I think I did that math right...*

Looks right to me. So, MM hunters can get almost the same passive haste as BM hunters get through talents, but they have to devote pretty much the entirety of their gear to it and have literally no leeway in gear choices. It also won't affect their pet.

Fuulish · 10/15/07, 9:17 PM

From reading the previous post, I was wondering, which of the various haste effects actually affect Steady Shot cast time? I know that BM Serpent's Swiftness does and that quiver haste doesn't. Can someone list the ones that do and don't?

Thanks

Keltan · 10/15/07, 10:21 PM

Quiver Haste, Serpent's Swiftness, Dragonspine Trophy and haste rating all affect the Steady Shot cast time.

Loshiis · 10/15/07, 10:44 PM

MM Spec Question:

15/43/3 vs 7/48/6

Essentially, the argument is whether 20% pet damage > minor agility boost, humanoid slaying, and better arcane shot weaving.

How much of a factor is -.8/-1 (depending on spec preference) on arcane shot weaving? I can see that with the talent you would be able to weave arcane shot in on every other set, but I've never done a hard DPS calculation on it. Basically, what are the opinions of Hunters who have tried imp arcane shot vs not having it on its usefulness?

(Note: My current spec is hybrid PvP/PvE...don't ask :p)

Tsook · 10/16/07, 6:35 AM

Originally Posted by Keltan

I came up with 306 Haste Rating

Max passive haste rating is 405 currently AFAICT, bringing a 1:1 rotation well into the realm of possibility for MM or Surv hunters.

Head: No haste item available, but 10 rating from [Arcanum of Rapidity]
Neck: [The Savage's Choker]
Shoulder: [Swiftstrike Shoulders] (or [Shoulders of Lightning Reflexes] for one less)
Back: [Crystalweave Cape] (or [Cloak of Fiends] for one less)
Chest: [Arrow-fall Chestguard]
Wrist: [Bindings of Lightning Reflexes]
Hands: [Fists of Mukoa] + 10 rating from Enchant Gloves - Minor Haste
Waist: [Shadow-walker's Cord] (or [Valestalker Girdle] for one less)
Legs: [Shallow-grave Trousers] + 10 rating from [Arcanum of Rapidity]
Feet: No haste item available
Finger: [Band of Devastation]
Finger: [Band of Devastation]
Trinket: No passive haste available
2H Weapon: [Jin'rohk, The Great Apocalypse]
Ranged: [Tuskbreaker]