vokzhen

Just wanted to add something:
You said that Blackout and Spirit Tap are interchangeable. I would argue that. In TK and SSC, there is a grant total one one fight where it's not possible for you to get a killing blow (Reaver). On every other fight, it's possible for you to get killing blows, get spirit tap, and get a noticeable increase in your regen, *especially* if you're low on mana and can bum an Innervate off your friendly feral druid.

 

tedv

I wholeheartedly agree. The moment you switch from Spirit Tap to Blackout is the moment you first pull Kael'thas. From that fight onward, Blackout is amazing and Spirit Tap is not as good. Before then, Spirit Tap is better for everything except Vashj.

 

Meltface

Perhaps I'm missing something, but why is Blackout better?

Anything that is vulnerable to Blackout can proc Spirit Tap. With the exception of a gimick fight like RoS, wouldn't the added mana and +dmg (from improved spirit) be more beneficial than a random stun?

 

Benegesserit

Anything that is immune to Blackout can proc Spirit Tap. Your point?

With other DPS "competing" (though not really) for a killing blow, you can't guarentee the proc like you can grinding (and yet only a decent chance in 5-mans). Blackouts pretty much only serve to help the entire raid by giving everyone a chance to go at it w/o the mob getting involved.

Anyone on a PvP server will also consider it simply because it can help save their butt outside, while Spirit Tap means nothing because when it goes off your opponent is already dead.

Spriests mp/5 will continue to go up with +dmg, to the point where going OOM happens less and less. Especially with crafted gear, it doesn't take long where the only thing between going OOM and not is simply choosing to save some money on pots.

In reality, the end-game perspective is saving money or helping the raid on any blackout vuln mobs.

 

Crepusculu

I would disagree -- not that spirit tap is impossible in raids, but rather blackout is superior.

First off, spirit tap is not a guaranteed thing, which kills it in my eyes. While each fight might have adds, half of those fights I will be dpsing down the main boss, simply because the cost of dotting adds (that die regardless in a few seconds) outweighs the supposed gains of a spirit tap. Of the times that I *do* dps down adds, I still rather have blackout.

The reason is, Blackout is damage prevention. It works great during vashj when i'm on strider duty, on Al'ar's phase 2 birds, or even Solarian's priest summons. It is an invaluable source of saving lives, and surviving in things fights is often the challenge. Less damage your raid takes, the less overall mana your healers use. SSC to black temple, blackout is my choice.

If I need mana, I pop mana potions. There is no popping a blackout if you don't have the talent.

Addons
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Meltface

That bosses are immune to both, and therefore it is a "taste" decision.

For trash, who cares?

The question I was implying was what boss fight does it help on? Aside from Vashj strider kiting, I don't see a valid reason for one over the other. Further, the context of the previous post was Kael'thas onward, which kind of discounts the strider kiting reason.

PvP is for PvP. I don't think that has any bearing on a PvE based thread.

Blackout's benefit is in the noise as far as incoming raid damage is concerned. And on any boss fight with adds you'd better not have your raid strategy planned around a 10% random chance proc. Spirit Tap's mana is the same way. You don't count on it, but its good when it happens.

If I have to choose between two talents that do nothing for raid DPS, but one helps speed consumable farming, I know which I'd choose in a PvE spec.

 

TheCutlery

Well, if something is vulnerable to Blackout, it's vulnerable to mace stun, all the rogue stuns, Revenge stun, Imp Concussive, Impact, etc. I realize that a lot of those things are primarily prevelent in PvP specs, but the point remains that not everyone needs to respec between PvP/Raiding. In that scenario, you're going to quickly come upon diminishing returns and overlapping stuns unless you're the only DPS, further reducing the value of the talent. Blackout doesn't do anyone any good if it happens during a HoJ.

I've personally never been impressed with it from a PvP perspective either, but the main issue is that anything that increases my mana regen is a good thing, PvP or PvE. I'll never skimp on it in any of my builds.

 

tedv

Here's the primary difference. Blackout procs on doing damage while Spirit Tap procs on kills. It's a lot easier to guarantee you'll do damage than guarantee a killing blow. It's value in the Hyjal trash is far superior to Spirit Tap, since you'll average three to four random stuns per minutes for 20 minutes of trash. And the trash should be considered part of the boss fight.

And there's only one single fight in Black Temple where you have a chance of Spirit Tap proccing-- Shade of Akama, and that's not a difficult fight. At least blackout can stun one of the bosses in Illidari Council.

Random stuns, such as Blackout and Mace Spec, are not affected by diminishing returns.

 

• frmorrison

In addition, a stun can help out your farming (if the mob is stunned, it cannot hit you, and then you could wand the mob safetly), plus if you are on a PvP server, it is good to be prepared.

If you are on or past Vashj to be the "best", you want blackout.

 

Crepusculu

Random stuns ARE affected by the DR, but it is a separate mechanic from controlled stuns. Regardless, pve fire mages don't spec impact, most pve rogues are swords, prot warriors usually don't spec imp revenge for 25 mans, and you'll maybe have one token MS warrior. Hunters casting conc. shot for their dps cycle-- get serious. The random stun area is a lot more open than you paint it. Shadow priests, being forced to pick between these two talents, should be the premier choice.



I am curious -
How many out there are specced for 4/5 imp mind blast? I tried it once and I could not find a rhythm of casting between mindblasts. I tend to enjoy having two mindflays + one 1.5 spell. Especially with the uneven durations of VE, VT, pain, and death (and random MSD proc), there is always space for 1 short spell between mindblast /flay rotations.

Addons
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woobsauce

Tedv, I seem to recall our chat. 150 spell haste is not what is making or breaking your dps. People such as Bilian and myself are matching/beating your damage without 150 haste (and no msd for myself in particular), Bilian with FAR less than yourself. This quote is a poor example of "evidence" because you fail to face the idea that your mages might not be doing their job. Not that its not possible for us to be near the top to start bt/hyjal progression, but when good mages start hitting 1500-1800 dps, even we cannot compete at that level. Its pretty rare for us to even get near 1400 dps. Its not that I don't see us occasionally beating mages (we've all probably done it), its just that at the endgame, I don't think we should be. As the game goes farther and farther on, I think that we need to realize our strength as a utility class, rather than a pure dps class (not saying we shouldn't be pushing dps, we always should be).

Also, its not that I fail to see the benefit of spell haste, but right now I'm building two sets of gear and I don't think at this point in time, that the appropriate gear exists in game at the time to really make spell haste shine for shadow priests. The main difference between most spriest rotations is that you can build around a buttonmash build which you live and die by the mind blast and death cooldowns, or you can go the mindflay priority rotation and hope msd procs, but with the incoming patch, this type of build is going to be severely retarded and really rather weak, no matter how efficient it might be.

 

Divismal

Blackout & Spirit Tap

As mentioned above Blackout and Spirit Tap are equally useful in raid enviroments, a little favored towards Blackout as it doesn't depends on the killing blow.

The chances are pretty low, that one of these talents are going to play a role in a bossfight. If you prefer melting faces in battlegrounds between the raids, try Blackout. If you prefer to farm or doing heroics consider Spirit Tap.


Mindblast

At the moment i use mindblast 1/5, which usually suits my spellcycle ~ 200 ms, but sometimes my ping seems to be better and i end a mindflay with ~0,5 secs cd on mindblast.
So i even considered mindblast 2/5 as soon as im able to reduce 1 point of shadow focus.

 

tedv

To be fair, arcane mages should average 1400 to 1600. The 1800 numbers are just when you win the focus proc lottery. And I agree that we shouldn't hit those ranges. When a mage gets better gear, the mage deals more damage. When a shadow priest gets more gear, the priest AND the mage deal more damage. So long term mages should always beat us.

I suppose it is possible the mages are making mistakes, but if I can handle two DoTs, two damage cooldown spells, and one spammable spell, I'm pretty sure they can handle casting Arcane Missiles over and over again. I just don't see how they could mess that up.

I had a conversation with Manly a while back and he proposed this theory that one of the primary differentiators of your DPS in end game raiding is your proactive positioning. You lose DPS time when you have to move around, so if you plan your moves, you stop wasting 2 or 3 seconds of damage here and there that add up to real time lost throughout the entire fight. I wonder if the issue is positioning. But for the record, spell haste helps that too.

 

Milemarker

I'd make an arguement that Spirit Tap is useful for Vashj, but would agree (from the sounds of things, as I'm working on Kael at the moment!) that Blackout overtakes it beyond.

It's pretty easy to quickly switch targets in Phase 2 of Vashj and SWD a killing blow on an Enchanted Elemental coming over the stairs. Keeping this up throughout Phase 2 (and with keeping Mana Potions on cooldown / Shadowfiend on the Naga) can mean you can get into Phase 3 with 80%+ mana to throw at Vashj. If the Shadowfiend was timed well in Phase 2, it's likely it'll be back up at around 20% in Phase 3, making the fight a LOT easier on the shadowpriests (and hence the parties) mana bars.

Having said that - I'm 1 of 3 Shadowpriests on the Strider at Vashj, and the other 2 do run with Blackout. And I certainly wouldn't want to miss those procs. It's possible it comes down to how many you take to Vashj, and what your raid makeup is - Striders with Slow / Curse of Exhaustion / Frost Shock / Mind Flay and Hammer of Justice / Tailoring Nets being used on them don't really need blackout procs, it's just a nice bonus.

 

• Snowy

For the record, I have Blackout, but it's more that I just run with the same spec for PvP and PvE. So Blackout makes more sense for me, being on a PvP server and doing Arenas. Otherwise, I think it comes down to a matter of taste. Blackout is nice for Hyjal trash waves, for example, and I never run out of mana during a trash wave that I'd need a Spirit Tap proc. In BT, it's largely irrelevent which one you have. I think the proper way to address this is just say it's a matter of taste and neither is "wrong" to decide on, with Spirit Tap having a slight PvE advantage, and Blackout more inclined toward PvP.

Benefactors' Bar, where you get free English lessons:

 

woobsauce

Well, tedv, at our gear curve (the both of us here) we should be tipping the scales at 1200 dps or so, and our arcane mages should be tipping 1400 dps. And most of my ideas on mage theorycraft generally spawn from manly or seath, and hitting 1600 dps seems more than feasible if you have the exalted bt trinket, and the msd, though post patch I'm not certain how well it will function in the future. And for the record, that issue with positioning makes you just that much better than the other players around you. If you are always going to be that much more proactive, and can do just that much more dps, than that goes to show that you are a smarter/efficient player. Until they can handle that much, you will continue to leave them in the dust (as for spell haste helping, thats complete bullshit, sorry your extra .15 seconds in a 5 second positioning move are pretty rare, and the extra 3 seconds of dps -shouldn't- be breaking your dps [e.g. shahraz. Lets say you need to reposition 30 times that fight, an extra 4.5 seconds of dps, will only add up to another 4.5k dmg, and that is far too inconsequential to compare to your ability to move, cutting half-seconds or even full seconds of movement.]).

 

TheCutlery

Yeah they are. I've routinely had stuff go immune tanking heroics with Imp Revenge. My problem with Blackout for PvP is that it's just not reliable enough to bother. It doesn't go off when you need it to go off, and it proccing can actually mess up your rhythm. When I farm, I pull with a VT, turn around and start running, SW: P and VE (if necessary) on the run, then turn around and flay and then I get a mind blast off before the mob gets to me. With a blackout proc, the mob is still OOR of the flay when I turn around, which means I have to either wait for it, or cast MB. I'm annoyed by either outcome.

I think it might be time for you to "get serious." I realize that this is a high end BT/Hyjal raid board, but assuming that everyone in said guilds are high end players that care about min/maxing their specs and casting rotations is a bit of an overstatement, don't you think? Do you really thing all the mages and rogues respec for pvp and then have an optimal PvE spec? Really? All the guilds that just got into SSC have people that have opimal specs and never would consider taking any talent that doesn't increase their personal DPS in a raid environment? Come on.

I raided MC/BWL the summer before TBC came out with a guild of some pretty decent people. But that's all they were...decent people. When it came to playing, they were horrible. We had epic battles of mathmatics on the guild board regarding Windfury, because that guild never used it. You can't argue with people who don't want to listen, and it's even harder to get someone who's been playing their character the same way for 2 or 3 years to change their patterns. Some of them do it once they see numbers, but there is a large segment of the population that plays on "Feel." "Well, the tank doges more with GOA, so we're gonna use that." I know you people hear that stuff every day.

So from a complete min/max standpoint is there a time and a place for each talent? Sure. I won't argue that. But in reality there are going to be other variables in your raid to take into account, and I highly doubt that they all care as much about min/maxing their stats as much as the people who read this board do.

 

Caligula

Isn't that the point though? This post was made on these boards which cater to that type of person.

I guess I don't understand what you're trying to say. This is a thread about min/maxing but we should concern ourselves with not min/maxing?

 

• Cluey

I think Snowy sums it all up very well here, neither is "wrong".
So lets not shit the start of a great thread up with pointless argument over which is best when it is all situational or personal preference.

 

Benegesserit

Well guess what? Perhaps neither of those talents were intended to be a big player in boss fights. Saying who cares on trash is your problem, and does not discount the value of the talents and how they perform on trash. If you don't care about trash, then go in 0/0/0, and naked. Because you don't care. Performance is performance. Anything you can do to make trash faster and smoother is always a big help. I'm tired of people acting like they should not give two squirts of piss about trash. It's primarily the reason in a raid instance that is being farmed that guilds die more often on trash than they do on the bosses. You're dilusional if you think BT farming guilds never ever die on trash.

Since neither talent are that much of a help on bosses (barring some very situational encounters), then you look elsewhere, and from a PvE raiding standpoint, your only other option is trash. You can stop caring when Blizzard gives people the option to despawn trash after having enough faction reputation*.

* A whole different rant

Spirit tap becomes less and less useful the more powerful a priest gets (via +dmg) since they are gaining more and more mana per cast and the cost of the spells aren't going up. Any spriest with kara and crafted gear can do vashj w/o going oom if they spend the cash on consumables. You can't rely on an elemental getting lose that's low on life to regen your mana. Going out of your way to proc spirit tap on a mob that didn't need your help is wasted dps time that should have been on mobs that do.

EDIT: Clarification on spirit tap benefit on Vashj

 

TheCutlery

Okay, lemme explain it again before everyone naysayed on what I said.

Lets assume you pick Blackout for the purpose of stunning trash and helping your raid out. What if your warrior has improved revenge? He's hitting that button every cooldown. There's a solid chance that he's proccing a good amount of stuns on that mob, therefore rendering it immune to your blackout. What if you have a fire mage who enjoys doing the 3 minute thing in PvP and has impact? His stuns are causing DR's on yours. What if your blackout procs during a HoJ or Kidney shot? Are you truly