[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 100

Darkmantle · 02/04/08, 6:36 PM

Originally Posted by alvinrod

Unless things have changed recently, I believe that the damage and whether the spell crits or not is calculated at the time of spell cast instead of impact.

Base damage from +dmg is calculated when a spell is cast. ( tested by popping a trinket just as a spell leaves your hand)

Damage bonuses from debuffs is calculated when the spell hits. ( tested by putting Cos up on a target while a bolt was on it's way to the target)

Whether PI needs to be on you before or after the spell goes off I don't know but I would presume it is calculated into the base spell, since my already active dots don't get larger after I get a PI.

Alvira · 02/05/08, 10:43 PM

Right now, drums of battle seem to be skewing DPS a lot because it stacks and anyone with LW can have it. Just wondering, for theorycraft purposes. In a heavily drums of battle stacked raid, would going full arcane, and using AM as a primary nuke actually do as well as fire?

While it seems wierd. But AM was so good when mystical skyfire was broken because of the haste factor. Now, with a stacked raid, might it approach the same level again?

Copernicus · 02/05/08, 11:18 PM

MSD was so good with Arcane Missiles because it could have a chance to proc each wave. The Arcane Missiles spec only makes sense if you're abusing proc/hit abilities.

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When I say Arcane has burst possibilities, I'm referring to AB spam. I believe that's still the highest possible DPS in the game (barring haste in 2.3). It's also about the only argument an arcane enthusiast has.

Voley · 02/06/08, 2:42 AM

Is leatherworking worth taking for the drums? I got herbalism and enchanting right now, and I am thinking to drop herbalism for letherworking. Will it be worth it?

Jarlyn · 02/06/08, 3:22 AM

Yes. Level herbs an alt, keep professions that are directly beneficial to you as a raider on your main.

Roywyn · 02/06/08, 6:05 AM

Originally Posted by Alvira

In a heavily drums of battle stacked raid, would going full arcane, and using AM as a primary nuke actually do as well as fire?

While it seems wierd. But AM was so good when mystical skyfire was broken because of the haste factor. Now, with a stacked raid, might it approach the same level again?

Haste scales better for fire than arcane as well, there is no point.

AM wasn't good because of haste.
AM was good because MSD was an average 15% more haste for arcane than for fire, and TLC/AToI were ~8-10% damage increase trinkets for arcane and fire/frost were taxed.
AM DPS then was cut by 25%. You don't think you can make up for such a loss, can you?

Pintofbrew · 02/06/08, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by Alvira

Right now, drums of battle seem to be skewing DPS a lot because it stacks and anyone with LW can have it. Just wondering, for theorycraft purposes. In a heavily drums of battle stacked raid, would going full arcane, and using AM as a primary nuke actually do as well as fire?

While it seems wierd. But AM was so good when mystical skyfire was broken because of the haste factor. Now, with a stacked raid, might it approach the same level again?

Why does everyone insist on finding ways of making Arcane work?

People, think, if it SCALES WORSE with everything than the other two specs how will stacking ANYTHING make it better?

Yes, if you have 100% Drums time you will signifficantly improve. Possibly, 100% Drums Arcane might be superior to 0 Drums Fire, but we know fire scales better with haste so:

x% (where x is between 0 and 100) Drums time with Fire will Always be more then x% Arcane.

What if you down every consumable and stack every buff, and have a SP+3hunter grp? And a machine gun? No, arcane will never surpass fire in any possible way, the gap will simply multiply with more and more buffs.

It simply scales That Bad.

Saphya · 02/06/08, 9:27 AM

I think with the haste change in 2.4 (reducing GCD and allowing arcane to make more use of haste and probably heroism/bloodlust) in 2.4 and a group/raid setup that highly disfavors Fire (i.e. no Curse of Elements due to not enough mages or warlocks, but 13% Curse of Shadows) Arcane could be able to outperform Fire, especially in relatively short fights or with heavy mana support.

I just plugged in the following numbers in Lhivera's script (using Arcane with IV in comparison to Fire with IV, numbers for fire in "()" )

Int 500 (500)
Spirit 350 (350)
Spellhit capped (capped)
Critrating 330 (350)
Arcane/Fire/Frostdmg 1300 (1350)
Molten Armor, all buffs/flasks; all target debuffs EXCEPT curse of elements for both builds; 2T5 for arcane and 4T6 for fire. The +50 spelldmg and +20 Crit for fire is a wild guess, since Arcane will be using the inferior 2T5 for +20% Arcane blast set bonus.
Fight duration 5 minutes.

Arcane numbers:
2,818.24 DPS Arcane Blast / spammed w/AP (DPM: 6.27)
2,167.88 DPS Arcane Blast / spammed (DPM: 6.46)
1,454.53 DPS Arc Blast x3/Arc Msls x1/Frostbolt x1 w/AP+IV avg'd (DPM: 11.85)
Also interesting: 1,216.16 DPS Arcane Missiles and 1,037.37 DPS Frostbolt. This basically means that all of your spells are pretty much inferior to the Fireball with firespec except for Arcane Blast, to make arcane work most of your damage has to come frome Arcane Blast!

Fire numbers:
2,256.13 DPS Fireball w/IV (< 20% health) (DPM: 15.53) (to compare burst dmg only)
1,649.60 DPS Fireball x8 / Scorch x1 w/MF+IV avg'd (DPM: 13.6)

A number for Arcane Blast / spammed w/AP+IV avg'd for 2.4 is missing

But if you manage to do something like 30%+ of your time spamming Arcane Blast and using your CD's properly (and the rest of your time the somewhat manaefficient rotation), i think arcane would outperform fire in this specific scenario. It's also a lot less threat.

And i'd like to add that fire might very well STILL be a better choice due to things like spellpushback, range and all the other things that make the life of arcane mages miserable. If you still go OOM (or near OOM at the end of the fight) with the fire build, the usual fire build will be better (since it's definately more DPM). Some of the numbers above might also be quite inaccurate, i don't have the time to look up erverything and make my own calculations at the moment.

Edit: I just realized that 40/0/21 would be a better choice, if there is no spellpushback (if there is you should choose fire anyway), since both DPS and DPM of Frostbolt are higher than empowered Arcane Missiles, using the same stats i used above. 3x Arcane Blast 3x Frostbolt w/IV+AP avg'd is 1520 DPS with 13.68 DPM; this would also give more Arcane Blasts due to higher DPM. There also seems to be a bug in the script: i use 164 Spellhit, but i get 1.00 Hit Rating: 0.99 Damage, 1.19 Crit Rating, 0.70 Haste Rating for relative DPS Values. Spellhit shouldn't increase DPS since it is both capped with Arcane and Frost.

Kiklerakos · 02/06/08, 9:43 AM

Originally Posted by Voley

Is leatherworking worth taking for the drums? I got herbalism and enchanting right now, and I am thinking to drop herbalism for letherworking. Will it be worth it?

I just did it yesterday , it wasn't even that expensive as I read.Kind of miss herbing nightmare vines though :-)

Pintofbrew · 02/06/08, 10:25 AM

Originally Posted by Saphya

-stuff-

But if you manage to do something like 30%+ of your time spamming Arcane Blast and using your CD's properly (and the rest of your time the somewhat manaefficient rotation), i think arcane would outperform fire in this specific scenario. It's also a lot less threat.

And i'd like to add that fire might very well STILL be a better choice due to things like spellpushback, range and all the other things that make the life of arcane mages miserable. If you still go OOM (or near OOM at the end of the fight) with the fire build, the usual fire build will be better (since it's definately more DPM). Some of the numbers above might also be quite inaccurate, i don't have the time to look up erverything and make my own calculations at the moment.

Firstly claiming threat is irrelevant. Secondly, I wouldn't call the numbers -inaccurate- pre se; It's more a case of inadequate modelling.

Lhivera's can't account for bloodlust, dual trink, IV, Comb, destropot, flamecap and drums during Molten Fury. This alone is enough to push fire so far into the stratoshpere arcane will never recover.

Even with the CoE/CoS-mal issue, fire beats everything hands down, simply because it's stacking an astonishing number of effects together to produce two lines worth of buffs for 20 sec.

Even with 0 cooldown stacking and not taking into account most buffs (flamecaps, destropots, trinks, drums and bloodlust) fire's beaten arcane to a pulp; Adding cooldowns to the mix simply nails the coffin.

Don't forget, it's not the fact that arcane doesn't get the same buffs; it does (Except the flamecap) but because Fire combines them with more effects, undoubtably the biggest one of which is Molten Fury, it will stay way ahead.

Personally I can't wait for Manly to post a 2500DPS parsing where he gets a CoE at execute range. Go on Manly, you know you want to.

Saphya · 02/06/08, 10:44 AM

Sorry i just added an Edit to my post, since nobody replied to it yet and i didn't want to make another post

As you could see from my profile i haven't even been in MH/BT, and we also both don't have any knowledge about the Sunwell encounters yet, which might or might not favor arcane over fire or vice versa. I also don't have a reason to choose arcane for myself, because the DPM of it is just bad, so i'm using fire myself

Still, i wouldn't claim fire to be always the best option (note that i didn't deny that fire is superior under most circumstances), arcane seems to be fine if you have enough mana support to do heavy Arcane Blast spamming (Arcane Missile DPS is really low though, due to poor scaling) or if there will ever come a threat-sensitive bossfight like some of the bosses in BWL again.

Nurru · 02/06/08, 11:05 AM

Still, i wouldn't claim fire to be always the best option (note that i didn't deny that fire is superior under most circumstances), arcane seems to be fine if you have enough mana support to do heavy Arcane Blast spamming (Arcane Missile DPS is really low though, due to poor scaling) or if there will ever come a threat-sensitive bossfight like some of the bosses in BWL again.

We're never going to have another era of fights as stupid as BWL's in regards to threat. These days raids all have Salv, Tranq air if needed, Invisibility, Pain Suppression and significantly better threat meters than we used to have back in those days. Plus, if you want to bring up old encounters imagine how much damage arcane would miss out on if we had a new Vael. As for AB spam, the spell scales terribly and even if you maintain it for 100% of the time (doubtful) you're still missing out on Molten Fury at 20% which is enormous when cooldown stacking. AB also doesn't get along with Icy Veins at all, even if the GCD lowers a bit in 2.4.

Why do people want Arcane to work so badly? It was easily the most mindless spec imaginable. Socket red gems, get a MSD and press AM for 3 minutes (or better yet, bind AM to a mouse wheel and just scroll while watching tv). Is that the appeal?

Maledict · 02/06/08, 11:10 AM

Arcane before the patch that made AM spam the best option was actually a fun spec. It's also completely viable in 5 player instances, heroics and Karazhan (or at least it was when TBC was first released). I don't think peopel want a return to the AM spamming days, but I think a lot of the arcane fans would like some of the complexity of Arcane adding back to the class - the option of different AB rotations, the fact that spirit and intellect actually matter when gearing, the mana balancing trick that when done right led to some fantastic fun results.

I doubt many miss the AM spam, but I do miss the complexity of full arcane before AM spam. It just doesn't work at all now, and until Blizzard changes something there's no real reason to look into making it work.

Alvira · 02/06/08, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by Maledict

Arcane before the patch that made AM spam the best option was actually a fun spec. It's also completely viable in 5 player instances, heroics and Karazhan (or at least it was when TBC was first released). I don't think peopel want a return to the AM spamming days, but I think a lot of the arcane fans would like some of the complexity of Arcane adding back to the class - the option of different AB rotations, the fact that spirit and intellect actually matter when gearing, the mana balancing trick that when done right led to some fantastic fun results.

I doubt many miss the AM spam, but I do miss the complexity of full arcane before AM spam. It just doesn't work at all now, and until Blizzard changes something there's no real reason to look into making it work.

This is how I feel as well. When I am fire spec, and I look at gear upgrades, T6, etc. I feel frustrated. I find myself thinking, why not just wear spell fire / spellstrike all the way and such. And Int, Spirit absolutely doesn't matter. And playing fire is keeping scorch up and then just pressing fireball.

When I am arcane, there's arcane rotations to think about. There's mana to manage. When to hit AP matters. And suddenly, all gear upgrades scale correctly and T5 and T6 are actual upgrades. I can like int and even accept some spirit on my gear. And its a lot more flexible. I can trottle/burst out large damage at the cost of mana in a short period of time, and use lulls to regain back mana. Its very good for the many movement oriented bosses that Blizzard put into TBC.

Its just that its so dumb that arcane needs to try so hard, and possible still end up not being competitive to either fire or even frost at max gear settings (luckily I am not there yet, but I bow to the wisdom of those who already are there). Arcane was never meant to lag fire or frost so badly. It was supposed to BE the preferred raiding spec for the min-maxers of raiding.

Cardynal · 02/06/08, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Alvira

This is how I feel as well. When I am fire spec, and I look at gear upgrades, T6, etc. I feel frustrated. I find myself thinking, why not just wear spell fire / spellstrike all the way and such. And Int, Spirit absolutely doesn't matter. And playing fire is keeping scorch up and then just pressing fireball.

When I am arcane, there's arcane rotations to think about. There's mana to manage. When to hit AP matters. And suddenly, all gear upgrades scale correctly and T5 and T6 are actual upgrades. I can like int and even accept some spirit on my gear. And its a lot more flexible. I can trottle/burst out large damage at the cost of mana in a short period of time, and use lulls to regain back mana. Its very good for the many movement oriented bosses that Blizzard put into TBC.

Its just that its so dumb that arcane needs to try so hard, and possible still end up not being competitive to either fire or even frost at max gear settings (luckily I am not there yet, but I bow to the wisdom of those who already are there). Arcane was never meant to lag fire or frost so badly. It was supposed to BE the preferred raiding spec for the min-maxers of raiding.

You know very little about high end raiding if you feel spellfire/spellstrike = T6.

1) You NEED stam. You'll never live fights like Naj, Gurtogg, or Council w/o a decent amount of stam.

2) If you think the rotation is boring with fire...try actually using your cooldowns correctly. It makes a HUGE difference in your overall damage output. What part of 1.6 second fireballs isn't fun?

3) umm...5% more damage on your primary spell....I'm not even going to touch this one.

4) Arcane Blast was always broken...it REQUIRES you to have 2t5...which prevents you from upgrading. Any spec that is only made viable by wearing downgraded gear (TLC for AM spam, 2t5 for ab rotations) is simply horrible planning on the part of blizzard.

Vhad · 02/06/08, 12:25 PM

Uh, I think that's a overly wrong statement saying arcane was supposed to be the prefered raiding spec for min/max'ers. I don't have the link but unless I misunderstood or remember the post in another way, all blue ever said about Arcane spec was that they wanted it to be the best dps at the cost of poor dpm - which is still true.

I loved arcane when it could shine, when we were in t5 content/just getting into t6, and I loved the MSD patch that made AM really fun to raid with and you could actually use the spell you left in the spellbook at lvl 8 when you learned it 3 years ago... It's a dead horse though, and unless a major overhaul is incoming Arcane will be bad - WOTLK could change things too, hopefully. In the meantime trying to make Arcane work appears to be rather pointless.

Roywyn · 02/06/08, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by Alvira

Its just that its so dumb that arcane needs to try so hard, and possible still end up not being competitive to either fire or even frost at max gear settings (luckily I am not there yet, but I bow to the wisdom of those who already are there). Arcane was never meant to lag fire or frost so badly. It was supposed to BE the preferred raiding spec for the min-maxers of raiding.

Combat dagger rogues have strict positioning requirements and have to watch their combo points carefully to pick their best rotations of finishing moves, and deal less damage than combat sword rogues.

Same situation. Less scaling for more effort. There have been mini step buffs, but there is still a notable difference.

Yes, it's dumb. But it's probably better than being 100% dependant on the 2T5 set bonus and having to skip T6+ gear for it.
I agree that arcane deserves a reason to exist outside of 1 minute boss fights, but not much we can do about it. It needs some talent and gear overhaul to make it happen, and there are better things to invest the time into before WotLK hits.

Cardynal · 02/06/08, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

text

I hit 2014 dps last night on teron. My crits were a bit low compared to my chance to crit...33% when it should have been about 39% with a ret paladin & raid buffed...and I only had one destro pot on me which i managed to forget to pop until my trinkets were nearly finished. (I'll be making a macro to use for execute range that I have the option to hit if i'm ok on mana for destro pots =)

What i'm wondering is what kind of damage I would be putting out if the fight were to only last 2'30" vs ours that lasted 3'38". The execute range lasted a full 40 seconds...and I still managed to put out 3374 dps during it. By my calculations...I was doing 4204 dps when my trinkets/IV were up during the last 20%.

A rough ratio could be figured out for the amount 1 minute extra dps time lowers your dps by.

WWS - 2/5/08 - Hardlycore

And yes...our interrupts were horrible on ROS =)

manly · 02/06/08, 1:50 PM

A few notes.

First thing first. Every spec will have advantages and disadvantages. There will be times where one spec will shine, and others where it won't. If we wanted to put it in the most simplistic terms, arcane is good on trash and AOE because of the lack of ramp-up-time and less requirement on debuffs. Fire sucks hard on trash, with scorch stacking and ignites falling off. Frost is in-between.

Using the vast majority of fights available in raiding, generally fire should serve you best given that it has arguably everything you want for a PVE spec (ie: high single target DPS with very few drawbacks in that domain).

If you want my honest opinion, I think almost every TC misrepresents arcane spec. The closest we've had was Vontre' spreadsheet because it dynamically adapted your spell rotation depending on DPM. But again, it wasn't perfect and I am not sure if it would do AP/AB spam rotations at all. But it gave the closest results that I am aware of. Fire spec is highly misrepresented on a large amount of TC and simulationcraft that I have seen. Currently, in my view, the best model available is Vontre' webtool, with the minor hiccup that cooldown stacking is not perfectly optimum, but the results are close enough. For frost spec, I think the spec is simple enough that any off-the-hill TC will give 'proper' numbers simply because theres no 'complex' cooldown stacking involved -- "pop any cooldown as soon as they're up" is close enough for purposes of TC that it can be viewed as accurate. Personally I use Vontre' webtool, but thats just me,

I don't think mages will ever come to an agreement in terms of what spec is the best. Everything is situational. Hell, theres even a teron-buster spec for those really inclined to it (0/40/21). Ideally you would have one different best spec for every encounter. But beyond all of that, 2/48/11 will give you the best possible scaling out of everything that exists. And this has got nothing to do with cooldown stacking. Or fight mechanics. That same spec happens to adapt arguably the best on a vast majority of fights due to its low number of downsides (ie: arguably only scorch ramp-up time and ignites falling off).

I don't think I'll ever manage to convince arcane mages for the simple reason that there is no tool that gives a result I would deem close enough to use myself as for reference-TC. I can't show to arcane mages why their spec is bad with a simulation because theres none I trust enough to give me a good output. Oh I can give a rather long list of reason for any mage to spec one spec or another. Arcane happens to have the most amount of downsides, and sadly enough, doesn't really have much upsides beyond 'low threat' which is mostly irrelevant theses days.

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Originally Posted by Alvira

stuff

I understand firespec play is kinda 'dull' in itself. However, I find it interesting that not many people seem keen on honing their play. I am being very honest when I say I think I've never had a single fight where I had literally near perfect play. Theres always something to pick up on your play that could have been improved upon. Sometimes its not too obvious, and requires WWS after-the-fact-analysis, but more often than not you can make a mental note of things like 'moved too much here' or '3s left on flamecap at end of fight'. Why not take that focus you enjoy so much from arcane spec and try to use it to better master (or enjoy?) deepfire playstyle? everything is about cooldown management. Sure, you won't see a 'huge' dps upgrade from a decent cooldown stacking to a perfect cooldown stacking, but its those last dps that makes all the difference. It is far more impressive to see a 2450 parse (+50 dps from your previous best) than a 2050 parse. If the vast majority of parses are 2.4k DPS, and you see a mere few breaching 2450 dps, then that is where you can see your efforts truly shine.

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Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

[...]Personally I can't wait for Manly to post a 2500DPS parsing where he gets a CoE at execute range. Go on Manly, you know you want to.

Well, my previous parses I had sub-optimal gear. But now I have the optimum gearset. I should get 40-50 more dps from the gear change. Then also I get better at cooldown timing every time. I still severely misuse flamecap and drums of battle. I know I can push more dps from proper play. Problem is, while the basic principles that goes into cooldown stacking, in practice its not as easy to master as it sounds. We really need a mod that shows fight duration on a bar (like I pointed out a while ago), it would tremendously ease things up. I've yet to do a teron kill I would deem that was close enough to perfect play. I know I can do better, I know where I screwed up.

The interesting parse should be this week, given that odd are high I get an elemental shaman that is LW. 3-4 drums would ease things up, but sadly, odds of 3 warlocks is quite low.

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Originally Posted by Cardynal

[...]
And yes...our interrupts were horrible on ROS =)

As ironic as it might sound, I am typically happy when that happens. Sure, it might cost you a dps loss, but more often than not what happens is that I end up exploding due to a double crit, which sucks. And ice block doesn't works against ROS damage, for some reason, so you cant ice block on a mid-air fireball to save your ass off.

Alvira · 02/06/08, 2:36 PM

My answer to what Manly said.

Cos I am not at that gear level yet, nor am I at that level on content yet. My guild isn't farming Illidan and I am not wearing four piece T6. Nor will I be in a position to get four pieces of T6 any time yet. My guild just killed Archimonde, Mt Hyjal is still currently a big part of our weekly raiding schedule.

We have killed a few bosses in BT. Probably Bloodboil next. In that context, you can see why I am still deep arcane/ minor fire. Because Arcane is great in MH, especially for AOEing the waves of trash. Its adequate to good for the MH bosses too.

In early BT, arcane is fine too. Supremus has higher resist to fire. And I just swop to using fireballs for fights like najentus or teron, where there is a fairly high amount of spell knockback. Shade of Akama is a joke, and a 1 min Burn down anyway.

Maybe the remaining bosses of BT will require me to spec fire. But I seem to recall that Illidan has a portion of which involves fire immunity. The prospect of going fire, and then, changing to either frost, or arcane to progress or kill on Illidan on a weekly basis doesn't sound very appealing. Not when I could still continue to play like a fire mage and use fireball for the selected bosses where it is better. Average fireball dmg is lower, but crits are higher. In the end, its probably not so far below a deep fire spec that it matters so much. (Just because I am deep arcane doesn't mean I can't use fireball on certain fights).

The same reason was why I stayed arcane throught out SSC/TK. Arcane was good for those instances, and the prospect of changing spec everytime we did Alar every week was not appealing. Not when arcane was competitive enough in SSC/TK.

Between practicality vs trying to have the best theoratical possible DPS. I choose practicality. I am still waiting for the day when practicality will cause me to change to being a fire spec. Maybe when I am at the stage of having 4 piece T6 and when my guild has Illidan on farm. So, since I am not there yet, and arcane serves its purpose more than adequately in the meantime, I will still use arcane.

We don't know the full details of the next patch. But the lowering the min threshold to 1 sec on cooldown for spells buffed with haste is certainly going to buff arcane more than it buffs fire or frost (which already receives most benefits of haste). So, it will only postpone the day when I change to fire.

manly · 02/06/08, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by Alvira

My answer to what Manly said.[...]

To be honest my reply to you was more addressing your distate of firespec playstyle more than trying to convince you to switch spec. I know that I wouldn't change specs based only off on someone else internet posts. I make my own opinion of things and move along with it. Personally I don't give much credibility to heresay until I see a parse. Believe me when I say I will be the first in line to switch spec as soon as another spec is best DPS spec.

Tzal · 02/06/08, 3:24 PM

Alvira-I believe being competitive isn't the goal here. It's being the best every single time out. Those are two very different things. TC shows that fire is better for reasons explained by other mages far better than I could. So TC suggests going fire.

Your reasons for staying Arcane are anecdotal. And since you are sharing anecdotes, I'll offer some as well. Our Arcane mages do great on trash, but our fire mages dominate them on boss fights and during the times that matter, the last 20% of boss fights. So my anecdotal evidence suggests fire as well.

Manly-Do you use a mod to track scorch stacks? I've used a few, but they are unreliable and don't pick up scorch stacks applied by other mages. Based on WWS parses, I'm scorching way too much because I mistakenly believe I need to reapply 5 stacks. I could look at the boss's portrait, but the scorch debuff is usually too hard to pick up.

Nurru · 02/06/08, 3:28 PM

In regards to fire, since coming back to Mage once I started getting into better cooldown management the whole thing has been a lot more fun. That and switching fireball to shift-mwheelup, but that's another story. Manly is right when he says you can tell where you have room to improve by doing simple things like seeing where your timers are when a boss dies.

Cardynal · 02/06/08, 3:30 PM

I use scorchio, quartz, and looking up at the debuffs while spamming fireball to monitor the scorch debuff. None of these are perfect...and aren't even 100% using all 3. I've yet to find a mod that keeps track of it perfectly.

Nurru · 02/06/08, 3:39 PM

For scorch tracking I highly recommend DebuffFilter. It's also excellent for tracking the timing left for buffs on yourself, and little details like whether the mob has CoE or not (likely not).