Kirion

This adds a bit more value to elemental shaman in raid though.

42.

 

Northerner

It does but the issue becomes having an elemental shaman with 100% attendance. Yeah, being 3% off hit won't kill you but it's nice to have options. Min-maxing in T5 I ran with a couple of gearset options based on if I had our elemental or not. Swapping gems (or gemming an alternative set) is less convenient shall we say.

Oh yeah... and that spirit thing again.

Oh well, perhaps they are trying to move hit to a weapon/offhand/trinket stat to differentiate PvP/PvE gear. At least we aren't seeing spell pen all over the place. Hah!

 

frosty

The missing hitrating should also reduce the gap between fire and arcane specs, which can get 7% more hitrating through talents. No idea if it will be enough to get both specs on an equal level, but any future TC should consider the different socketing to find out, i.e. add an amount of +dmg to the arcane spec that represents the missing stats of a fire build using hit-gems.

 

BrTarolg

Tbh, i don't think hit will be a problem at all. Simply put - just value items as spelldamage=spellhaste=2critrating=0.5hitrating and gear up that way, and then only start worrying once you smack into the hitcap, and just gear up in a way where you get the optimal numbers possible.

 

Prom

I had a look at these items on the PTR just as they were being released to the internet last night. It made a big impression on me that I couldn't find any item with hit rating.
I thought maybe that wasn't the whole lot.

My only assumption is that other items dropped in Sunwell will have hit rating on them, and we will just have to make the best combination out of a wide variety.
It would seem pretty odd to release all new gear with No spell hit rating !!!

 

Roywyn

Okay, plugged the items into the sheet as they are now.
Upgrades listed as 30/40 means +30 damage without hit, +40 damage upgrade with hit (roughly).
Assuming spinel spam for sockets for those values.
That means that socketed items will be "better" since you can gem them for some more +hit.


Hat - T6 is good. Illidari is +15/+30, new hat is +20/-2; Engi T2 are +12/-10
Shoulders - T6 is good, new shoulders are +15/+15. No penetration is good, but just dmg/crit stinks.
Robes - T6 is "nice", ghostly hatred is +35/+12. Tailoring BoP is +70/+45
Bracers - new T6 are nimble +16/+16
Gloves - T6 is nice, new drop is +35/+0, tailored BoE is +45/+10.
Belt - new T6 is noose +17/+17, or blasting +25/-16 (lack of hit)
Leggings - new ones are T6 +55/+20, or Channeled (Kazrogal) +40/+7
Boots - new T6 are seacaller +20/+20

Rings - new JC BoE unique-equipped is Mana-attuned +3/+5 (plus stamina)
Neck - new JC BoP neck is Hellfire +24/24 (break even with enchanting) or Translucent +35/+9


=> New maximised gearing:
T6 boots/Bracers are no-brainers.
T6 belt - beats blasting if you can reach the hit cap via gemming (quite sure you can reach that), and you get 1 item for T6 bonus.
Use T6 shoulders + Illidari hat to maximise. T6 hat are a decent second choice (0 illidan hats in our guild).
Use whichever you have and need to keep your set bonuses.

The new tailored BoP robe is plain nuts.
New leggings and gloves are very good upgrades.
The ring will drain a lot of Sunmotes (best in slot so far, and has stats).


I think hit-itemisation killed Zhar'doom.

Edit:
Also, bear in mind that stacking this much haste on gear will skew the value of haste on gear.
The more you stack haste, the better dmg/crit/hit become, and the relative value of haste compared to them will go down.

 

f1reburn

shadowpriest.com :: View topic - 2.4 and SP itemization: They still don't get it

Apparently MSD has been changed to 320 haste for 6 seconds, 15% proc chance.

Could someone less mathematically challenged than me provide the implications of this change?

 

Roywyn

Assuming the same internal CD, and the same mechanics (what procs it), and the same 15% proc chance.
Also, assuming that it's NOT consumed by a cast, as listed.

Current MSD:
100% haste for 1.5 seconds (cast time of one hasted fireball) per proc. 100*1.5 = 150

New MSD:
320 ~ 20% haste for 6 seconds per proc. Assume a 7s average effective proc duration (if the procs fades while a spell is cast, it still gets hasted). 20*7 = 140


- So, roughly the same for fire as it's now. Bear in mind that the current MSD is worth less since you'll run into the GCD. The "more blue than yellow" will make it unusable though with current hit itemisation.

- AM spam - currently it's 100% haste for 1 cast. You would need 1k haste rating to get AM under 3sec to get 3 casts off in 6sec - not going to happen I think. So it will be 20% haste for 2 casts. Less than half as good as one cast at 100% haste.

- For frost, CSD beats MSD right now, and they'll be roughly the same in 2.4. Hit gems will probably kill it though, even if 6% frost hit stay in.


Edit: Old MSD was multiplicative haste, new one is additive haste rating. So, it gets a bit worse when you have loads of haste stacked, but not by much.

 

Nickolina

Looks like theres going to a lot of gem swapping.. You can get by with 6 +8 rare spell hits and later swap em if you get the ring and staff.. I don't think it's viable to swap epic gems for epic gems... I can just see my gm loving me when i ask for 9 pyrostones if and when I get that staff :P

 

Roywyn

Notice that the listed items are the token-loot and profession items.

All token items have spirit on them, so I'd guess there is also loot without spirit and maybe with hit as direct drops.
Just a wild guess though, or it would be pretty dumb towards warlocks to drown them in useless spirit - not that it's any better for mages though *cough*

Another interpretataion would be that it's off-spec token loot for arcane mages and shadow-priests, or just leveling gear with the WotLK spirit change in mind (whatever they want to so with spirit, but they announced a "change to make it useful").
So, there may be "main spec loot" for cloth casters without spirit, and maybe with hit rating.


It's just speculation though, but I wanted to make clear that these items are most likely not everything there is. Hopefully


Edit. Of course it's too early to stitch together a new set. But it's never to early to start working with the things we have!

 

draxon0012

Isn't it a little premature to calculate new end game sets without seeing actual epics in Sunwell itself? I mean all due respect.

 

Tharia

MMO-Champion and other sites have quite a lot of screenshots laying around, dataminers have done a great job, as always ^^ Maybe one or two items are missing still, but these shouldn't change much. A bit of planning doesn't hurt, especially if you didn't farm BT for eternity and have every Item you could possibly use and swap around as you like :x

We, as a guild, are still missing zhar'doom, but seeing the new loot, I'm not that sad about it.

 

Vhad

Only items unaccounted for are new necks, rings, cloaks and trinkets I think. Which means you can get a pretty nice list already, I made one for alliance mages not rolling with elemental shaman's to be capped @ 152 hit rating, I'd be interested in seeing other setup's maybe using Sunflare.

Head = Cowl of the Illidari Highlord@stam/dmg gem
Neck = Hellfire Encased Pendant
Shoulders = Mantle of the Tempest
Cloak = Shroud of the Highborne
Chest = Tailored Chest
Bracers = Bracers of the Tempest
Gloves = T6,5
Belt = Belt of the Tempest
Legs = T6,5
Boots = Boots of the Tempest

Ring = Mana Attuned Band
Ring = Loop of Forged Powers

Trinket = Hex Shrunken Head
Trinket = Skull of Gul'dan

Wand = Carved Witch Doctor's Stick@dmg/stam gem

Weapon = Staff of 50 hit rating

All gems are red 12 spell dmg unless otherwise listed.

For a total of:

147 hit rating
294 haste rating
1353 spell dmg
245 crit rating
Crit@0,77ESPD and Haste@1,29ESPD this totals: 1920,91 ESPD

Basically all of the current T6 is garbage compared to the new pieces, however you have to keep one piece. Depending on what you currently have that piece will be shoulders or helmet as the difference in upgrade is smallest on those pieces, if you have Illidari Cowl you want to keep shoulders, if not you want to keep the helmet.

Edit: did most of my numbercrunching with only slightly valuing hit, this means it's undervalued in the effective spell dmg calculations I've made to actually favor the 50 hit rating staff even more. But for all intends and purposes it's not going to make a big difference as once capped hit rating is essentially useless.

What!?

 

Aoife

Cowl of the Illidari Highlord (Chaotic Skyfire Diamond; Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst; Glyph of Power)
Translucent Spellthread Necklace
Mantle of Nimble Thought (Greater Inscription of Discipline)
Cloak of the Illidari Council (Subtlety)
Sunfire Robe (3xRuned Crimson Spinel; 6 stats)
Bracers of the Tempest (Runed Crimson Spinel; 15 damage)
Gloves of the Tempest (Runed Crimson Spinel; 20 damage)
Belt of the Tempest (Runed Crimson Spinel)
Leggings of Channelled Elementals (3xRuned Crimson Spinel; Runic Spellthread)
Boots of the Tempest (Veiled Pyrestone; Boar's Speed)
Mana Attuned Band (12 damage)
Ring of Ancient Knowledge (12 damage)
Hex-Shrunken Head
Skull of Guldan
Sunflare (Sunfire)
Chronicle of Dark Secrets
Wand of the Forgotten Star

Damage: 1366
Hit: 164
Crit: 308
Haste: 231

I haven't looked too closely at the new Badge type loot from Sunwell, so some of those might be a bit better for off set slots, but this seems to be the best I can get so far. I'll take a loot at it again later this week and try to see what else can be changed.

 

Vhad

This setup doesn't satisfy the meta gem requirements, unless I'm missing something?

What!?

 

Aoife

Damn, you're right. Would need to swap out a Spinel for another Shadowsong Amethyst somewhere.

 

Nurru

I'm starting to curse Manly a bit for convincing me to drop Tailoring for Leatherworking in irc. Perhaps I'll start farming cloth again. I was stupid not to drop Alchemy anyhow.

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

rautrix

This is a conspiracy to keep us wearing Belt of Blasting until WLK.

So as a T6 mage, I can only swap out slots that don't have hit on them for Sunwell loot to keep my hit intact (or spec arcane): bracers, boots, shoulders, cloak, 2 rings, 1 trinket slot, and neck.

They could easily fix this by putting some hit on the T6 added pieces (bracers, boots, belt) because then you'd be encouraged to swap more slots for Sunwell loot and still keep the 4pc bonus.

I want to see what the dps caster wand's stats are.

 

Nurru

I'm not feeling so bad about using Blue Suede Shoes and Ring of Captured Storms right now (hey, when you're regearing everything is an upgrade).

< Aislinana> Why would it be my job to sleep with vontre? Don't I have standards?

 

Roywyn

80 haste for 5 people for 30 seconds every 2 minutes blows the Sunfire Robe away. Yeah, Alchemy would have better to drop though.

New T6 beats blasting overall, since you can recover hit from gems.

 

Aoife

Cowl of the Illidari Highlord (CSD; Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst; Glyph of Power)
Translucent Spellthread Necklace
Mantle of the Tempest (Veiled Pyrestone; Glowing Shadowsong Amethyst; Greater Inscription of Discipline) Note: 4 damage from socket bonus
Cloak of the Illidari Council (Subtlety)
Sunfire Robe (Runed Crimson Spinelx3; 6 stats) Note: 5 damage from socket bonus
Bracers of the Tempest (Veiled Pyrestone; 15 damage) Note: 2 damage from socket bonus
Sunfire Gloves (Runed Crimson Spinelx2; 20 damage)
Belt of the Tempest (Veiled Pyrestone) Note: 2 damage from socket bonus
Pantaloons of Growing Strife (Runed Crimson Spinelx3; Runic Spellthread)
Boots of the Tempest (Veiled Pyrestone; Boar's Speed)
Mana Attuned Band (12 damage)
Loop of Forged Powers (12 damage)
Hex-Shrunken Head
Skull of Guldan
Sunflare (40 damage)
Chronicle of Dark Secrets
Wand of the Forgotten Star

485 Intellect
265 Spirit
160 Hit Rating
276 Crit Rating
1398 Damage (1408 with Sunfire; 1412 with Soulfrost)
244 Haste Rating

Thoughts?

 

Krazen

Couldn't you make the Robe then drop tailoring?

Also, I haven't heard anything about a wand.....I pray that the TK wand will not remain the best in the game.

 

Keyne

I'm not so sure this argument works. Wouldn't this be like saying that Blasting beats T6 overall cause you can make up the haste (or any other stat) from gems (or any other source). I haven't proven it to myself in the strictest sense of the word, but in the gearing algorithm I use for bosses I have assumed that the only thing that should change the decision to put runed living rubies/spinels in my sockets is a relevant socket bonus or meta requirement. I have a strong feeling that using sockets to cap hit is suboptimal. There is one exception to this that I have found, but it only applies to kara level gear. As I said however, I have no proof for this.

 

galzohar

Overall, as long as you have the ability to hit cap with gems, you're making better use of the itemization value if the gear lacks hit and forces gemming to cap it compared to having excessive hit on gear to the point where you look for every way to gain any small amount of spell damage at the cost of a lot of that excessive hit rating.

Right now the massive hit rating on T6 level gear gets to the point where some items are just a waste compared to what they could be if they used more itemization on dmg/haste (or even crit, although not as good and with that might as well get excessive hit rating - but even that is up to a point).

Fact is if you're needing to gem for hit you're probably making *better* use of the itemization value than if you're trying to get rid of excessive hit.

 

Roywyn

Capping hit with gems is not worth it if you can get +hit from other pieces and put damage gear on sockets.

So, at early levels, you should sockets hit (or dmg/hit) because there is not enough hit on the gear.
At T6 levels, you socket damage, since you have enough hit on your gear. Actually too much hit, you have to juggle your hit and non-hit gear to optimise.
At this T7 level, we're back at the start. No or very little +hit on gear, so you have gem for +hit, since the gear with +hit has less overall stats.

Belt of Blasting: 50 dmg, 30 crit, 23 hit; BY+4dmg
Belt of the Tempest: 30 sta, 29 int, 17 spi; 50 dmg, 29 haste, 20 crit; Y+2dmg

Same damage, same crit with intellect. Stands 23 hit + 2Sockets vs. 29 haste + 1 socket + a decent amount of stats + 1 piece towards the 4T6 set bonus.
Okay, the direct comparison is very debatable. A clear sidegrade I'd say, worth it for the stats and very worth it to retain 4T6.