We haven't seen dungeon loots so I think it's still too early to make any kinds of "Wish Lists" (i.e. the cool looking off-hand might have some decent hit on it, it already looks like an upgraded version of Chronicles on screenshots)
Capping hit with gems is not worth it if you can get +hit from other pieces and put damage gear on sockets.
So, at early levels, you should sockets hit (or dmg/hit) because there is not enough hit on the gear.
At T6 levels, you socket damage, since you have enough hit on your gear. Actually too much hit, you have to juggle your hit and non-hit gear to optimise.
At this T7 level, we're back at the start. No or very little +hit on gear, so you have gem for +hit, since the gear with +hit has less overall stats.
Belt of Blasting: 50 dmg, 30 crit, 23 hit; BY+4dmg
Belt of the Tempest: 30 sta, 29 int, 17 spi; 50 dmg, 29 haste, 20 crit; Y+2dmg
Same damage, same crit with intellect. Stands 23 hit + 2Sockets vs. 29 haste + 1 socket + a decent amount of stats + 1 piece towards the 4T6 set bonus.
Okay, the direct comparison is very debatable. A clear sidegrade I'd say, worth it for the stats and very worth it to retain 4T6.
It can be worth it, it just depends on the juggling around of gear. If you've got an item with some hit and an item without hit, if by swapping some stuff around and tossing a few hit/damage gems in you get more damage/haste/crit with the same amount of hit, then of course you're going for the higher damage stuff. Everything's relative.
Okay, the direct comparison is very debatable. A clear sidegrade I'd say, worth it for the stats and very worth it to retain 4T6.
The problem is that you will have to put 3x hit gems to make up for the hit lost on one item that delivers the 2nd most amount of hit rating (first is Skull) -- Belt of Blasting.
A T6.5 set item should be better than a crafted T5 item, imho.
I haven't been able to check out much of the changes of 2.4, but based on the fact that they are adding 3 more pieces of t6 and you could have a 4 piece t6 and 2 piece t5...along with a lot of the items seeming to have haste rather than hit rating...has anyone checked the viability of an arcane build with the 4 piece t6 and 2 piece t5. (also thinking about the buff to spirit regen, mana would be even less of an issue)
Seems to me, just off the top of my head that it may be worth looking into.
We've only seen the first of most of the new T6+ loots, and given that many of them make T6 itself look very dated by comparision, I cannot fathom a situation in which 2pc T5 would still be desired. Assuming the new T6.5 or T7 (whatever you want to call them) will be even better than the things we've seen so far, it seems entirely possible to be running with 300 or more passive haste on your gear. I don't think anyone accurately forecasted the haste gain would be so substantial, and if anything this is even more of a nail in the coffin for Arcane. Those levels of passive haste would completely eliminate any potential for cooldown stacking using Arcane Blast.
With Fire though... is my math off that we could be looking at sub-2.6s (2.5?) unbuffed fireballs? What would that scale to with Skull/IV/Lust up? I may need to buy a new keyboard here shortly because I think I'm drooling on it right now.
Speaking practically though, I'm really, really interested right now to see if the haste gems have epic equivalents, if for no other reason than all this new gear is going to make spinels hilariously hard to come by. The demand for them is going to be high even if haste Pyrestones do exist, but the wait time on spinels could literally be weeks if that's all everyone will still be using. I'm not looking forward to that aspect of things, even though what I've seen so far certainly has me excited.
Fact is if you're needing to gem for hit you're probably making *better* use of the itemization value than if you're trying to get rid of excessive hit.
At this T7 level, we're back at the start. No or very little +hit on gear, so you have gem for +hit, since the gear with +hit has less overall stats.
I'm fairly sure that having a surplus of gear such that you have the best item with hit rating and the best item without hit rating available for each gear slot puts you in the best position to get the full value out of the hit on your gear. "Trying to get rid of excessive hit" seems like a good position to be in rather than a bad one.
The other thing is that we arent actually back at the start. When we were in Kara, the hit gear just didn't exist. But at T7 content, you still have all the gear you have right now. I haven't crunched the numbers on the 2.4 gear yet, but I would be surprised if there weren't some T6 items with hit that are "better" than some of the T7 items that lack it.
The source of my disagreement might be the fact that I base my gearing decisions on a stat equivalence system, rather than the trial and error of changing my setup in vontre's spreadsheet (which is what I imagine a lot of EJ'ers do.) To be specific, I use Arawethion's [Mage] Relative Stat Scaling Mini-Spreadsheet to determine value of the stat points relative to +dmg, and use that to gear. I believe Manly said something about using stat equivalence methods are either not accurate or not optimal, but I don't remember which. Can anyone explain to me why this is the case?
Some preliminary analysis of impact of spirit change on arcane. It has much bigger impact than the lowered gcd. Based on fight characteristics it results in 4-12% damage increase (about 8% on typical 5 min raid boss).
Additionally it changes stat values considerably. Before int was almost as good as dmg, now int is the best scaling stat for arcane mages. For a 5 min fight the following equivalences hold for my gear (4t5): 1.014 int = 1.462 spi = 1.544 dmg = 1.922 crit rating = 1.679 mp5 = 2.393 haste.
Another change is which enchants are the best. 12 int bracers wins over 15 dmg, 15 spi wins over 6 all stats, 5 spi wins over vitality, sunfire is still the best weapon enchant, but 30 int is better than 40 dmg. For gems 4int/5spi is the best in blue socket, second best is 10 spi. For red 12 dmg still wins, but 10 int overtakes 12 dmg as the best single gem regardless of color.
Err, Kavan, Can explain how you arrive at such a high value to int such that 1 int equals 1.544dmg? I am an arcane mage myself, but I would be hard pressed to value int so much higher than +dmg.
Err, Kavan, Can explain how you arrive at such a high value to int such that 1 int equals 1.544dmg? I am an arcane mage myself, but I would be hard pressed to value int so much higher than +dmg.
Just some ballpark numbers. Regemming and enchanting I would get the following stats raid buffed. 870 int, 485 spi, 1570 dmg (with averaged trinket). This is roughly 450 mp5 while casting with mage armor. Under 5 min fight with sh. priest this is enough for 2 min of ab spam used with AP, IV, Heroism, and rest on AB cycle.
Another relevant conclusion I found is with all this CSD is still better than the new 2% int meta.
I've been trying to type out a coherent response for about 15 minutes now and I'm a total loss as to how you're deriving that +int is anywhere in the ballpark of being as good as +damage. Even for a full Arcane spec, intellect translates poorly into spell damage. Moreover, although I understand that more +int = more regen in 2.4, gemming for pure +int produces such a low spell damage total that mana regen becomes completely irrelevant in the face of abysmally low DPS.
If I'm understanding this correctly, this is the equivalent of saying that I should only cast Scorch because I'll be able to last longer with it than I would with Fireball.
Edit: just saw your current post, and I'm giving up because I'm completely clueless what you're talking about here.
If I'm understanding this correctly, this is the equivalent of saying that I should only cast Scorch because I'll be able to last longer with it than I would with Fireball.
You're forgetting one very important aspect of arcane. For arcane more mana equals more damage. This comes from relation of mana to AB spam vs AB cycle ratio. The higher regen you have the more time you can spend AB spamming.
Be that as it may, we're getting into the same argument about Arcane vs Fire that's been going on for weeks. If you have such large mana problems that you have to gem for +int and regen, you shouldn't be Arcane to begin with.
Be that as it may, we're getting into the same argument about Arcane vs Fire that's been going on for weeks. If you have such large mana problems that you have to gem for +int and regen, you shouldn't be Arcane to begin with.
I think you are missing the whole reason int is valuable to an AB spamming arcane mage. Gearing for Int isn't about solving a "mana problem," its about amassing resources to focus on the spell rotation that makes the spec 'work' in the first place.
The other thing is that we arent actually back at the start. When we were in Kara, the hit gear just didn't exist. But at T7 content, you still have all the gear you have right now. I haven't crunched the numbers on the 2.4 gear yet, but I would be surprised if there weren't some T6 items with hit that are "better" than some of the T7 items that lack it.
This is true for warlocks. Our t6 shoulders and helm are both superior to the Sunwell counterparts when the +hit is factored in, and the Illidari helm is quite a bit superior to the Sunwell one. Compare that to our t6 gloves, which are vastly inferior even if you need the +hit.
Items like the Ring of Captured Storms and the Mana Attuned Band can be used as well.
Our t6 shoulders and helm are both superior to the Sunwell counterparts when the +hit is factored in, and the Illidari helm is quite a bit superior to the Sunwell one.
To reinforce what I was trying to say in my post, clearly if all thise new and insane 2.4 gear lacks hit, then obviously the +hit on t6 shoulders and helm SHOULD be factored in...
Kavan's numbers are amazing. And I hope he will test out some parses and let us know the results. For myself, I would be seriously tempted to gem for int if by that, I can already achieve close to 1500 damage raid buffed and yet, have such a great mana pool and mana regen. Pity I am not a gnome. >_<
Be that as it may, we're getting into the same argument about Arcane vs Fire that's been going on for weeks. If you have such large mana problems that you have to gem for +int and regen, you shouldn't be Arcane to begin with.
No, we are not. Kavan showed up with what he considers to be calculations on how the regen change affects arcane mages. You may see this as a arcane/fire argument but I see pure theorycrafting here. As soon as he posts proof of how he derived this 1int->1.5dmg theory I'm willing to back it.
I agree the spi-int change is monumental for arcane and with so little hit gear on Sunwell I'm sorely tempted to try making it work myself with a stupidly large manapool. If Kavan is right (and at 870int while maintaining acceptably high spellpower, I don't see why he shouldn't. Remember AB scales moderately with +spell and it might just be a superior choice to have more mana for more, smaller ABs than to have 550int and 1450spell.) we might be onto something rather interesting. 2m of sustained AB spam is monumentally big and you can't deny that before this spi-int change this was utterly impossible.
450mp5 while casting is approximately 7 times what I'm making now as arcane if I hit mage armor and I'm intrigued as to whether we can, at last, make arcane stand on it's own feet.
Timbal's Focusing Crystal
Binds when picked up
Unique
Trinket
Requires Level 70
Equip: Each time one of your spells deals periodic damage, there is a chance 285 to 475 additional damage will be dealt.
Equip: Increases damage and healing done by magical spells and effects by up to 44.
Interesting but the "one of your spells deals periodic damage" makes it sound like a pretty good spriest/aff lock trink.
Originally Posted by Sebudai
Addons aren't a crutch, they're tools to be abused by skilled players to increase performance. Like a carpenter using a hammer, a fisherman using a lure, or Xi using curse words.
Interesting but the "one of your spells deals periodic damage" makes it sound like a pretty good spriest/aff lock trink.
Be interesting to find out if it procs off of the fireball dot or ignite. Still doubt it would actually be worth using over a clicky because of molten fury and cooldown stacking.
02/10/08, 5:03 PM
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