I have 31% crit with arcane blast and 49% with frostbolt. You people seem to be awefull negative on the 40/0/21 build. Maybe your not gemming right? I did 1489dps on a kael fight. Does anyone realize how long that fight is? Sure mana is an issue, but you have to carry tons mana pots and use them all the time. When 2.4 comes out those mid range instances will be all 40/0/21 builds. This spec already performs equal with fire. The only disadvantage to this build is it requires you to think. There is no set rotation, Your rotation is whatever works for your mana.
If you want a fun, high dps spec in ssc, tk,mt hyjal and start of bt use 40/0/21. If you want to push 2 buttons and be bored go fire. If people are struggling to get high dps using 40/0/21 then you need to re-evaluate how you approach the spec.
Grats, your WWS shown dps is high because your dps_time is low. You've made the exact same mistake as 90%+ of every mage I seem to see post theses things.
WWS DPS = total_damage / dps_time
dps_time = (encounter duration cut in 5s slices. if you deal any damage during a 5s slice, you gain 5s of dps_time)
In other words, WWS DPS will misrepresent deep fire dps due to the fireball dot, which increases your dps_time, which has the effect of diluting your shown WWS DPS. If you want to compare specs, the best value to use is dps_average (total_damage/encounter_duration), which is an extra column in the options.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I have a quick question about whether or not there is a point where gaining haste at the cost of crit becomes a bad trade?
In my Current Haste Gear Setup (Two Rings, Shoulder, Bracer, Belt) I'm at exactly 10% Haste at the cost of almost 85 spell damage and 2% crit. The 10% Threshold for Haste though has been the most noticable difference in DPS for me personally.
The basis of the question is that I am currently able to maintain 10% Haste and hover around 31% Fire Crit and 1300's buffed Spellpower. When I begin to add more haste and not sacrificing any Damage, only crit, is there a 'magic number' where losing anymore crit makes Fire not perform as well?
I have always had a personal minimum threshold of 30% Crit with MA. I'm reaching a point now where adding more Haste Rating is going to be at the cost of my Crit rating dropping below that 30% threshold. Understandably this will be different with the new T6 Gear in Sunwell, but I am faced with this decision currently.
I understand that the spell damage to haste ratio is almost 1 to 1, but at what point does the crit to haste ratio begin to favor more crit instead of haste? Or is this more of a personal decision than a TC decision?
Honestly. 4300 Average fireball hits? Come on guys, read the fine print.
4300 average fireball hits during such a short fight are nothing special. My raid is far away from these dps numbers, but if you take a look at our gorefiend log from today Thrudnir - WWS my average fireball hits were 4400.
My equipment is shown here: The World of Warcraft Armory (1332 firedamage unbuffed)
My Buffs have been: Flask of Pure Death +80
Blessed Wizard Oil: +60 (vs. Undead)
Restoration Shaman: +101
Food: +23
Why do people not realize those numbers use darkmoon faire buff too?
Did you mean the Vis Maior WWS i linked? If so, here is another one: LINK ~2700 DPS.
To be honest, i wasn't even aware of the 10% damage buff from darkmoon faire, thanks for the tip
But given the fact that darkmoon faire starts at the beginning of each month and these stats are listed for 29. January i somewhat doubt that this mage got the buff and then didn't log in until the raid on January the 29th.
Did you mean the Vis Maior WWS i linked? If so, here is another one: LINK ~2700 DPS.
To be honest, i wasn't even aware of the 10% damage buff from darkmoon faire, thanks for the tip
But given the fact that darkmoon faire starts at the beginning of each month and these stats are listed for 29. January i somewhat doubt that this mage got the buff and then didn't log in until the raid on January the 29th.
The fight lasted 2:20. The only possible way of killed it that fast is with a full raid with darkmoon faire buff.
Try again.
EDIT: Case in point, the first link you gave us shows 2:19 fight. This new one shows 2:20. So yes, you just effectively proved us one of either 2 things:
1- the date of the encounter is based on when you upload the parse (??? that would not make any sense but who knows)
2- vis maior modifies their parses (or rather, the date of encounter)
(besides, if you look at both parses they conspicuciously only show the first 4 bosses of BT, which is a clear indication of darkmoon faire buff)
Last edited by manly : 02/17/08 at 6:12 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
I have a quick question about whether or not there is a point where gaining haste at the cost of crit becomes a bad trade?
I understand that the spell damage to haste ratio is almost 1 to 1, but at what point does the crit to haste ratio begin to favor more crit instead of haste? Or is this more of a personal decision than a TC decision?
Image a setup where you have zero haste and high damage/crit.
You usually value your stats combared to +dmg, at least I do.
Then you have values like 1 crit ~ 0.75 dmg, 1 haste ~ 1.15 dmg as an example.
1% haste is a 101%/100% = 1% damage increase for you.
Now, you magically gain 157 haste rating = 10% haste while your damage/crit/hit stays the same, from new gear.
Then, 1% more haste is 111%/110% = 0.909% damage increase only.
So, the relative value of haste decreases to 1.15 (previous) * 0.909 (from 1% increase to 0.909% increase now) = 1.045.
That means 1 haste is now only worth ~ 1.045 dmg.
As your passive haste increases, the relative value compared to +dmg slowly decreases.
Haste will always be better than crit for pure DPS unless you stack it excessively.
Keep in mind that crits give you mana, haste takes it. This may or may not be important.
Mind you that 1s is still the limit for the GCD. Depending on spec and setup, you may run in danger of reaching it.
I think that with the current itemisation, I'd always pick damage over haste if there is a choice.
My personal preference with haste is that I don't switch crit/hit/dmg for haste on sidegrades, but I will switch it on upgrades.
Point for point when mana is no issue, crit won't beat haste for DPS unless you excessively stack it and you run into the global cooldown for your main spells.
Why do people not realize those numbers use darkmoon faire buff too?
Grats, your WWS shown dps is high because your dps_time is low. You've made the exact same mistake as 90%+ of every mage I seem to see post theses things.
WWS DPS = total_damage / dps_time
dps_time = (encounter duration cut in 5s slices. if you deal any damage during a 5s slice, you gain 5s of dps_time)
In other words, WWS DPS will misrepresent deep fire dps due to the fireball dot, which increases your dps_time, which has the effect of diluting your shown WWS DPS. If you want to compare specs, the best value to use is dps_average (total_damage/encounter_duration), which is an extra column in the options.
This is all relative to the spell you cast. I should have stressed total damage output, not dps. The top mage on that list is 40/0/21 as well and has a much higher dps time. He casted more frostbolts then I did. Frostbolt is longer cast time there fore dps total is lower. The difference between him and I was 3k? Again, according to all the mage calculators I have played with, 40/0/21 is within 15 dps of 2/47/11+2. The math supports 40/0/21 as a viable spec. I come to forums and see people slamming it. They are not accurately portraying the truth. Both spec are equal for all intent and purpose. They just require different play styles. This is the calculator I use. please tell me if you feel it is innaccurate Man Out of Time - Theorycraft-o-Matic .
Thank you though for pointing out the obvious on how wws displays the information, I am sure some people may not be aware of that tidbit of information. The fight I linked there is alot of moving around, as I am sure you know. It is very hard to manage mana in a fight that long, but, my original purpose was to point out that 40/0/21 is viable for long fights as well. In 2.4 it becomes even better if changes hold.
Speaking of 40/0/21 specs, I see alot of discussion going on about rotations etc. I've been raiding with 40/0/21 since forever, and frankly speaking I haven't seen anyone mentioning just frostbolt spam. I'll attach a recent Teron fight where I attempted to push it. (although destro/drums weren't used) COE 10% was up, wc-mage, resto shaman and Moonkin as group buffers.
You might notice that my crit (61%) seems somewhat high - although I went through it and my technical crit% should be 58%, so there isn't any major abnormalities.
the effect on it; Equip: Each time one of your spells deals periodic damage, there is a chance 285 to 475 additional damage will be dealt, has me interested in if this is worth picking up. The first thing that came to my mind was it procing on my fireball DoT, but i was curious if anyone has tested it on Ignite. From what i've read it seems to have a ~10% proc rate and has a 15 second internal-cooldown, and it is able crit for 150% (based on your shadow crit%). It is not affected by Rune (thank god).
To me it seems like a damn good replacement to either my Quag's eye or Icon (since my guild has never seen any skulls in 19 illidan kills, and they dont take mages to ZA because they prefer locks). I was mainly hoping to find some insight on anyone's findings or anyone's TC on this item and if it really could be a top item-slot contender for end-game once 2.4 goes live.
4300 average fireball hits during such a short fight are nothing special. My raid is far away from these dps numbers, but if you take a look at our gorefiend log from today Thrudnir - WWS my average fireball hits were 4400.
My equipment is shown here: The World of Warcraft Armory (1332 firedamage unbuffed)
My Buffs have been: Flask of Pure Death +80
Blessed Wizard Oil: +60 (vs. Undead)
Restoration Shaman: +101
Food: +23
I have 1231 Damage unbuffed, only 100 less +dmg, with the same group/buffs as you ( resto shaman ) flask/oil/food, how can you explain the discrepancy of over 700 damage difference on fireballs. ( CoE was up ) Doesn't really make sense to me unless you were faired
I have 1231 Damage unbuffed, only 100 less +dmg, with the same group/buffs as you ( resto shaman ) flask/oil/food, how can you explain the discrepancy of over 700 damage difference on fireballs. ( CoE was up ) Doesn't really make sense to me unless you were faired
Notice the difference on trinkets and destro pots? Also since the US armory is broken, going to assume you have 4 piece T6.
Also notice how his crit rate was absurdly low? That means sub 20% his Fireballs were normal hitting the mob causing an inflated avg Fireball hit. His max hit, normal, is only 400 more than your's, which could be due to the trinkets/potion and such.
So I did some haste math for AB spamming. Here is my results, please correct me if i am wrong.
My goal was to find the haste cap in different scenarios.
haste rating formula = c / ( 1 + x/1577)
AB - 2.5 sec
AB ramped - 1.5 sec
AB ramped with bloodlust = 1.5 / 1.3 = 1.15
AB ramped with icy veins = 1.5 / 1.2 = 1.25
AB ramped with icy veins + bloodlust = 1.5 / 1.3/ 1.2 = 0.96
how much haste rating (x) is needed to reduce ramped AB to 1 sec ?
2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) - 1 = 1
2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) = 2
2.5 / 2 = 1 + x/1577
1.25 = 1 + x/1577
0.25 = x/1577
394.25 = x
how much haste rating (x) is needed to reduce ramped AB to 1 sec when icy veins is active?
( 2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) - 1 ) / 1.2 = 1
2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) - 1 = 1.2
2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) = 2.2
2.5 / 2.2 = 1 + x/1577
1.136 = 1 + x/1577
0.136 = x/1577
215 = x
how much haste rating (x) is needed to reduce ramped AB to 1 sec when bloodlust is active?
( 2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) - 1 ) / 1.3 = 1
2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) - 1 = 1.3
2.5 / ( 1 + x/1577) = 2.3
2.5 / 2.3= 1 + x/1577
1.0869 = 1 + x/1577
.0869 = x/1577
137 = x
how much haste rating (x) is needed to reduce ramped AB to 1 sec when bloodlust and icy veins is active?
nothing. its already faster than 1 sec.
And I have another problem with AB, according to this Arcane Blast - Spells - World of Warcraft, AB(3) with any passive haste is 1.498 s cast, and vontre dps spreedsheet gives 1.51s .
reply to #2893:
I don't see your point...
Your wowhead links indicates 1.498 cast time not 1.468 as you mention.
Regardless, the rounding error seems insignificant to me.
I've got a question about how manaregen works in 2.4
The information I've seen about it so far has been "Spirit-Based Mana Regeneration: This system has been adjusted so that as your intellect rises, you will regenerate more mana per point of spirit." Do you know if anything more conclusive has been posted anywhere?
I did a quick test on the ptr yesterday where I equipped more spirit, alchemist stone, the mark of defiance and mage armor (with a 40/0/21 build). With this setup I could for the very first time cast frostbolts on Dr.Boom close to indefinately. I kept going for about 8-9 minutes before I got tired so needless to say this new regen works. This was selfbuffed however so I can only imagine the difference raidbuffed with imp spirit, kings, wild etc.
I've got a question about how manaregen works in 2.4
The information I've seen about it so far has been "Spirit-Based Mana Regeneration: This system has been adjusted so that as your intellect rises, you will regenerate more mana per point of spirit." Do you know if anything more conclusive has been posted anywhere?
Can anybody confirm the extra ghost hit from frostbolt?
I can't find any information related to it.
if it is verified, I guess could be quite a big change in the gear planing and final dmg resutls.
The ghost hit has been confirmed multiple times, by multiple people, in multiple threads.
You can easily test it yourself. Lower yourself from hitcap, by 6%, (3% normal precision + 3% ghost precision) and frostbolt spam a target. Parse it through WWS.
Mages are awesome in ZA... Short fights mean sub-20% cooldown stacking can go pretty crazy. With the melee stacking you might not get BL/hero (although if your raid leader is competent he can swap the tank out for the windfury-bot's bloodlust/heroism and if you have a 2nd shaman swap you+the shaman with the windfury bot+tank for 2nd blooslust), but even without BL/hero "just" combustion, icy veins, trinkets and flame caps (not to mention destro potion) at <20% that will actually have a good uptime% of the fight will probably make you outdps the warlocks on bosses. For trash you might get a bit out-dpsed a bit but you do have counterspell/spellsteal for the nasty flamecasters.
Overall I see "warlocks are better" as a compeltely invalid reason for not bringing mages to ZA. Most likely either your leaders are bad or they think you're bad and don't want to bring you.
We've brought a Warlock and Mage to each of our chest runs, it seems odd to not bring a Mage. For the length of those fights I do extremely well in the meters and provide a good CC for the trash along with some additional AOE.
edit: Maligne makes some good points about Scorch and 1 mage in ZA though.
Mages are awesome in ZA... Short fights mean sub-20% cooldown stacking can go pretty crazy. With the melee stacking you might not get BL/hero (although if your raid leader is competent he can swap the tank out for the windfury-bot's bloodlust/heroism and if you have a 2nd shaman swap you+the shaman with the windfury bot+tank for 2nd blooslust), but even without BL/hero "just" combustion, icy veins, trinkets and flame caps (not to mention destro potion) at <20% that will actually have a good uptime% of the fight will probably make you outdps the warlocks on bosses. For trash you might get a bit out-dpsed a bit but you do have counterspell/spellsteal for the nasty flamecasters.
Overall I see "warlocks are better" as a compeltely invalid reason for not bringing mages to ZA. Most likely either your leaders are bad or they think you're bad and don't want to bring you.
Yeah I disagree there. As Manly pointed out earlier, having only a single fire mage is pretty terrible for trash and extremely short fights, due to scorch. I've been on two bear runs so far, one as fire where we finished with literally 00:00 on the clock and one as Illidan frost where we had 6 minutes left. Of course I'm not accrediting it all to the spec change, but I think it certainly helped. The trash in ZA matters so much that it's worth giving up some <20% dps on bosses (of which there isn't much of anyway due to that window being so short to begin with). Add in high WE uptime due to said short fights and max permafrost and Imp Blizzard and I much prefer frost for ZA.
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit, and pour me a goddamned drink!
02/17/08, 3:28 PM
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