[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 119

Alcyon · 02/20/08, 4:05 AM

One possible offset to the IV/Heroism nerf is the new Improved Fire Ward talent - 2 points causes it to affect ranged and spells, and a lot of raid encounters have raid wide AOE damage. It will be interesting to see which encounters this will be helpful on - I guess it depends on which encounters have the boss as the source of the damage (e.g. Kael's Arcane Explosion) and which use an invisible dummy (like the ground effect on Onyxia) as I suspect situations like the latter won't proc the damage on the boss but the former may.

I can't wait to try to kill myself on every fight so I do more damage!

rautrix · 02/20/08, 4:07 AM

This is starting to look like the "leaked" patch notes that were floating around and proceeded the first official release.

I believe all that is left is the no spell pushback on IV and Ice Floes.

Jarlyn · 02/20/08, 4:08 AM

Not certain whether it's a bug or not but my Molten Armor has been proccing off everything on the PTR, even without the talent.

manly · 02/20/08, 4:20 AM

Wow Web Stats

04:38'19.890 Xerred gains Drums of Battle
04:38'19.890 Rormoon gains Drums of Battle
04:38'19.906 Mysticfox gains Drums of Battle
[no other drum gains ?]
[...]
04:38'20.265 Xerred gains Drums of Battle
04:38'20.265 Rormoon gains Blessing of Remulos
04:38'20.265 Mysticfox gains Drums of Battle
[...]
04:38'20.671 Firbalicious gains Drums of Battle
04:38'20.671 Reedu gains Drums of Battle

Another nice example of merged combatlogs.

Mysticfox · 02/20/08, 4:28 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Wow Web Stats

Another nice example of merged combatlogs.

It's actually an example of group swapping mid-fight to optimize for DPS or possible latency on Leica's end (?)

manly · 02/20/08, 4:29 AM

Usually, if you have a buff, unless you click it off, it won't show on the combatlogs when you gain it again.

I suspect you mean that swapping group somehow refreshes the drums in the combatlogs ?

Rensy · 02/20/08, 4:50 AM

I suspect he misunderstood what you were getting at :/

I have a fraps of our most recent kill however, if you would like to see it! I mean, I don't really know what to say.. this seems like an unjust accusation. If the goal is for accurate theorycrafting on this board then I don't see the purpose of doing "investigative reporting" within these logs to try and prove something that simply isn't the case. In other words, what is the purpose of going out of your way to discredit us?

I'm not an expert when it comes to the wow web stats client, but I can tell you that the kill times are accurate, because I have fraps for the Naj'entus, Teron, and Archimonde kills of tonight... all of which came in at number 1 on the public WWS.

I don't see why we need to be judged in particular. I know for my particular class I really enjoy maximizing my DPS, and so does my friend Mysticfox. So here's the deal, if you want to question us, I'm going to say "Okay, here's the video". It's either that, or I would graciously ask you to stop trying to discredit our accomplishments, because we put at least a fair deal of effort into our DPS, and it helps no one in the community to invalidate a very strong WWS, when other people could perhaps use similar investigation to yield positive results.

All this is kind of funny, because we made a conscious decision to not get world buffs. They absolutely trivialize the competition, and moreover they destroy the merits of the parses in regards to their theorycrafting value.

On the first page of the first log I could find from <Elitist Jerks>, the 98th placed Naj'entus, I found this evidence.

02:19'24.569 Manly gains Drums of Battle
[...]
02:19'25.011 Eswedge gains Drums of Battle
02:19'25.011 Siawyn gains Drums of Battle
02:19'25.017 Ironis gains Drums of Battle
[...]
02:19'25.386 Lailla gains Drums of Battle
[...]
02:19'28.613 Eswedge gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
02:19'28.613 Siawyn gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
02:19'28.613 Manly gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
02:19'28.613 Lailla gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V
02:19'28.613 Ironis gains 20 Mana from Mana Spring of Mana Spring Totem V

Come on man. Are you altering your 98th place combat log to try and cheat the competition? In other words, your evidence is simply lack luster. Would you like the videos to prove these are valid WWS's, or can the community just agree to trust us?

manly · 02/20/08, 4:55 AM

Originally Posted by Mysticfox

It's actually an example of group swapping mid-fight to optimize for DPS or possible latency on Leica's end (?)

Actually, you're in luck. It's easy to see given the VE heals from Xerred.

04:38'17.062 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Reedu for 232
04:38'17.062 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Firbalicious for 184
04:38'17.062 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Mysticfox for 184
04:38'17.062 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Rormoon for 185
04:38'17.062 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Xerred for 247
[...]
04:38'17.468 Xerred gains 42 Mana from Vampiric Touch
04:38'17.468 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Reedu for 211
04:38'17.468 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Firbalicious for 167
04:38'17.468 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Mysticfox for 167
04:38'17.468 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Rormoon for 168 (proof of no swap before)
[...]
04:38'19.890 Xerred gains Drums of Battle
04:38'19.890 Rormoon gains Drums of Battle
04:38'19.906 Mysticfox gains Drums of Battle
[...]
04:38'19.906 Reedu gains 38 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Xerred (proof of no swap after)
04:38'19.906 Firbalicious gains 38 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Xerred
04:38'19.906 Mysticfox gains 38 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Xerred
04:38'19.906 Rormoon gains 38 Mana from Vampiric Touch of Xerred
04:38'19.906 Xerred gains 38 Mana from Vampiric Touch
[...]
04:38'20.265 Xerred gains Drums of Battle
04:38'20.265 Rormoon gains Blessing of Remulos
04:38'20.265 Mysticfox gains Drums of Battle
[...]
04:38'20.671 Firbalicious gains Drums of Battle
04:38'20.671 Reedu gains Drums of Battle
[...]
04:38'20.687 Xerred gains 42 Mana from Vampiric Touch (proof of no swap after)
04:38'20.687 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Reedu for 210
04:38'20.687 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Firbalicious for 167
04:38'20.687 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Mysticfox for 167
04:38'20.687 Xerred's Vampiric Embrace heals Rormoon for 167

Proof: there was no group swapping.

I just want to be clear here. I know your numbers work, I do believe they are legit. While I did believe you were using darkmoon faire buff (mostly because I saw only the first 4 bosses on the parses), and I can see with the heavy group stacking that the numbers were done without it. Don't get me wrong, the numbers are nothing short of impressive, and does show that mages benefit a lot form group stacking. However, I can't stop but notice...why are you mentioning group swaps when there wasn't ? I'm not even questioning your numbers. The drums didn't make any sense doing a cursory look. I pointed it out and looked for it only because I saw too many merged logs that shows things like double curse of doom 3 seconds apart, or 4x soulshatter in a 2min fight. I have seen many many many bugged merged logs, enough to make me simply dismiss 100% of anything that remotely looks like one, because I can't know for sure what got double counted from what wasn't.

Rensy · 02/20/08, 4:56 AM

Also, just so you know... Mystic thought the group swapping was in relation to our Teron kill.

Mysticfox · 02/20/08, 4:59 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Actually, you're in luck. It's easy to see given the VE heals from Xerred.

Proof: there was no group swapping.

I just want to be clear here. I know your numbers work, I do believe they are legit. While I did believe you were using darkmoon faire buff (mostly because I saw only the first 4 bosses on the parses), and I can see with the heavy group stacking that the numbers were done without it. Don't get me wrong, the numbers are nothing short of impressive, and does show that mages benefit a lot form group stacking. However, I can't stop but notice...why are you mentioning group swaps when there wasn't ? I'm not even questioning your numbers. The drums didn't make any sense doing a cursory look. I pointed it out and looked for it only because I saw too many merged logs that shows things like double curse of doom 3 seconds apart, or 4x soulshatter in a 2min fight. I have seen many many many bugged merged logs, enough to make me simply dismiss 100% of anything that remotely looks like one, because I can't know for sure what got double counted from what wasn't.

Sorry, I did not thoroughly read through your post and look at the particular WWS report you had linked. I thought you were referencing the Drum of Battle gains from our Teron Gorefiend kill, where I was indeed swapped into another group mid-fight.

manly · 02/20/08, 5:04 AM

I am confused, what is wrong with the parse from our najentus kill? There is 5 buff gains from drums, I am the only leatherworker in the group. I pointed out your parse because it shows 7 drums gains that are less than 1 second apart.

Rensy · 02/20/08, 5:08 AM

Oh, okay... I thought you were pointing out the latency discrepancy present in the combat logs. Regardless, the rest of the point stands... but I guess you've embraced the idea that we didn't use the Darkmoon buff and the numbers do add up, so I think the point I was trying to make at the end of my post is moot.

Genocidal · 02/20/08, 5:11 AM

Forgive my intrusion on the world buff subject but what kind of effect does molten shield proc on ranged/spells?
The patch notes are somewhat unclear about it.

Roywyn · 02/20/08, 5:23 AM

Originally Posted by galzohar

This is far from an "stack-worthy" stat as well though. It's just like saying 80 intelect would give me a 1% DPS increase as 2.3 fire, which is far from useless, however it doesn't mean it's worth stacking.

<Stuff>

Will haste increase your DPS as 2.4 arcane? Yes. Does it make the best use of the itemization value? No, at least based on the calculations I've seen so far which definitely makes sense.

5% haste ~ 79 haste rating. Using magegraph (since I can't be bothered to do all the calculations again) with the same gear, I get the following for comparison.
+79 intellect => +3.3% DPS
+79 crit rating => +2.7% DPS
+79 spirit => +1.8% DPS
+91 (79*1.15) damage => +3.5% DPS
+79 haste rating gave me +3.8% DPS in my calculations.

I ran the haste on magegraph again, +79 haste gave me +3.2% damage and 1144 more mana at the end which can be used for another +0.3% DPS.

Now I'm really curious which stat is so much better than haste.

Edit: I didn't check the exact spells cast, but more haste means leass spam time, so you won't have the exact cast sequence, and therefore end up with a different amount of mana.

rautrix · 02/20/08, 5:29 AM

Originally Posted by Genocidal

Forgive my intrusion on the world buff subject but what kind of effect does molten shield proc on ranged/spells?
The patch notes are somewhat unclear about it.

Your Molten Armor will proc 75 dmg to a ranged attack/spell. Not possible before this patch.

i.e. You can proc Impact on a hunter if you were deep fire and pvp'ing. Before, it was only melee.

Pintofbrew · 02/20/08, 5:35 AM

Genocidal: Apparently it procs the 75 damage "thorns effect" of Molten armor conventionally seen only Vs. Melee. Mostly a PvP buff as far as I can see. Another rather hopeless attempt to lure more pvp mages out of frost.

Roywyn: I'm puzzled by the +79haste = 1144 more mana. It's interesting that you gained significant Dmg gain but odd that it was cheaper. Did the simulator end up with much more Economy Cycle DPS time?

Kavan · 02/20/08, 7:33 AM

The effect of IV/Heroism no longer stacking is surprisingly small for Arcane, on the order of 0.1%. This means that during Heroism you should AB spam and use AP. For the rest of AP they should still be stacked with IV and AB spam. So nothing really changes here, use all cooldowns on AB spam, the only thing different is slight desync of AP and IV for Heroism which you would have to do anyway with passive haste.

Baruk · 02/20/08, 8:32 AM

If I'm not completely mistaken, the rumor about IV/BL not stacking comes from the fake patchnotes that were posted on mmo-champion.com
Nothing of it is contained in the official patchnotes so that this discussion is somewhat void.

jogjog · 02/20/08, 8:39 AM

Originally Posted by manly

I am confused, what is wrong with the parse from our najentus kill? There is 5 buff gains from drums, I am the only leatherworker in the group. I pointed out your parse because it shows 7 drums gains that are less than 1 second apart.

yes, I also noticed it on an Akama report:

00:00'22.406 Jogjog gains Pouvoir des arcanes
00:00'22.859 Jogjog gains Présence spirituelle
00:00'23.640 Jogjog gains Bénédiction du Croissant d'argent
00:00'23.640 Jogjog gains Héroïsme
00:00'23.656 Jogjog's Déflagration des arcanes crits Ombre d'Akama for 4593 Arcane damage (757 resisted)
00:00'24.015 Jogjog is afflicted by Déflagration des arcanes
00:00'26.804 Jogjog gains Pouvoir des arcanes
00:00'26.875 Jogjog's Déflagration des arcanes crits Ombre d'Akama for 6294 Arcane damage
00:00'26.960 Jogjog gains Présence spirituelle
00:00'27.070 Jogjog gains Bénédiction du Croissant d'argent
00:00'27.085 Jogjog gains Héroïsme
00:00'27.132 Jogjog's Déflagration des arcanes crits Ombre d'Akama for 4593 Arcane damage (757 resisted)
00:00'27.179 Jogjog is afflicted by Déflagration des arcanes
00:00'27.648 Jogjog is afflicted by Déflagration des arcanes

I think it can happen when 2 or more people record the combatlog, and one of them has a lag..

Toonie · 02/20/08, 8:41 AM

Originally Posted by Baruk

If I'm not completely mistaken, the rumor about IV/BL not stacking comes from the fake patchnotes that were posted on mmo-champion.com
Nothing of it is contained in the official patchnotes so that this discussion is somewhat void.

It's included here: US-PTR-notes
Seems pretty official to me. Can only hope it'll change back before 2.4 hits live.

Nakawe · 02/20/08, 9:07 AM

Originally Posted by Toonie

It's included here: US-PTR-notes
Seems pretty official to me. Can only hope it'll change back before 2.4 hits live.

It is very ironic that more of those so called "fake patch notes" are making thier way into the PTR.

Pintofbrew · 02/20/08, 9:09 AM

They never were posted as "fake patch notes". They were posted as "leaked notes", which were being discussed and seemed perfectly logical as a list of "things to look into and possibly work into PTR". They looked more "minutes of long meeting" than patch notes to me.

Seems perfectly reasonable to me that they're disseminating them and deciding pro/con each one, progressively releasing them onto PTR.

jogjog · 02/20/08, 9:11 AM

Originally Posted by Nakawe

It is very ironic that more of those so called "fake patch notes" are making thier way into the PTR.

If they could make real the anti pushback in frost tree and the warlock nerf I'll be happy :p

Baruk · 02/20/08, 9:13 AM

Ok I have to apologize, this is not yet included in the patch notes on the EU wow site.
Damn them IV/hero was so much fun :/

Pintofbrew · 02/20/08, 9:17 AM

Originally Posted by jogjog

If they could make real the anti pushback in frost tree and the warlock nerf I'll be happy :p

I'm waiting with baited breath for their ISB talent to (1) get a nerf (2) work on fire too. Can you immagine ISB now proccing only (say) 10% dmg buff but Incinerate also buffing fire by 10%? We'd be back at MC-level of DPS hierarchy. Sadly, it'd kill off arcane 2.4.

On the other hand, there -is- a "leaked note" about ISB affecting only the warlock, so this potential fire buff would also affect only the warlock.

One can only wait and wonder.