[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 121

◊ Vontre · 02/20/08, 9:52 PM

An incinerate buff is desperately needed, and anything that might encourage warlocks to put up CoE is a good thing for us.

Roywyn · 02/21/08, 6:24 AM

Actually, I'd rather have them spam shadowbolts to increase shadow priest returns, CoE is already worth it with 1-1.5 mages these days. But that's going off-topic ...

I took a look at the new gear. Using T6 hat, Council cloak (it will beat Highborne at high haste levels), Reliquary necklace, Z'A ring and Hex/Skull, tailoring robe and ring enchants the passive gear bonuses are:
1416 damage, 284 crit, 166 hit, 350 haste. 334 sta, 370 int, 155 spi.

Plugging that into Man Out of Time - Theorycraft-o-Matic I get:
// Fire+IV 1 crit = 0.75 dmg, 1 hit = 1.94 dmg, 1 haste = 1.02 dmg
// (Frost 1 crit = 0.73 dmg, 1 hit = 2.03 dmg, 1 haste = 1.18 dmg)

Adding Wrath of Air, Totem of Wrath and Flame Caps and averaged trinkets, this changes quite a bit for fire.
Fire+IV 1 crit = 0.86 dmg, 1 hit = 2.28 dmg, 1 haste = 1.18 dmg
Hm, this weighting doesn't look that much different anymore.

So, what happened is that due to the massive amount of haste, its relative value went down quite a bit.
This makes T6 gloves and Chronicle offhand much more attractive, but they have too much hit and I'd lose some damage overall due to losing socket bonuses. We're talking about 0.5% or something, so it's a wash anyway.

Just wanted to point out that that we're reaching a point where the relative value of haste drops.

Kaili · 02/21/08, 6:51 AM

Originally Posted by Vontre

Anyway, for the results. I updated magegraf.com so IV and BLoodlust never stack, and fixed up the logic a bit to just pop IV whenever. The result is a 1% dps loss for top-end mages (that means Manly) over 5 minutes.

It seems like the Cast Sequence for Fire (2/48/11) is either wrong, displaying wrong or I'm a tard (one of the 3).

But it displays as :

Fire
Scorch
Scorch
Scorch
Fireball
Fireball
Fireball
Continues Fireball until end.

Is this intended by you ?

Pintofbrew · 02/21/08, 7:12 AM

If you're wondering why it scorches x3, it's always done that. It's under the assumption you're not the only firemage and hence will only start off with 3 scorches to max it out.

If you're wondering why it doesn't rescorch (if that's the case) I don't know, it sounds like a bug.

Kaili · 02/21/08, 7:31 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

If you're wondering why it doesn't rescorch (if that's the case) I don't know, it sounds like a bug.

Yeah was the lack of more schorch casts that seem odd.

Was just wondering if it was a display bug or a bug with the castsequence.

Roywyn · 02/21/08, 8:29 AM

Dumped 2 mana bars into Dr. Boom on live, rotating 3AB/3FrB and some haste.

I had exactly 1 cast at 1.83s cast time.
It usually went (1.5)s - (2.5s or 2.17s, 50:50) - (2.17s mostly, 1.83s once) for the cast times of the 3 Arcane Blasts.
Using the "Quartz hack" to display the total cast time sent by the server.

Edit:
Did another test and got 1.5s - 2.5s - 2.17s I think 5 out of 6 times. That kind of kills rotations.

Sguz · 02/21/08, 8:44 AM

With the Skull Nev, which Trinket do I equip on the second Slot (asuming 2/48/11, hit Capped, Full T6)?
- Crusade
- Hex Shrunken Head
- TLC
- Serpent Coil

Pintofbrew · 02/21/08, 8:44 AM

Which brings us back to the (AB/AM)*3/Sc rotation. Seriously, client/server are not handling AB ramp adequately, meaning you want to keep AB-chaincast (as a ramp) to an absolute minimum. Getting a sore deal from the cast time is bac enough, getting a sore deal from the cast time -and- getting a sore deal from the manacost makes AB*3/(anything) rotations lose any advantage they have. The Consumption advantages of (AB/AM)*3/Sc combined with successful CC-AM put it naturally in a state of irrelevance w.r.t. the bad handling of AB. Technically you can even eradicate AB ramp by skipping a Sc at the end and simply shifting into AB spam seamlessly.

Sguz, I find it hard to believe you've managed to get a Skull and still even consider TLC in a fire build. The TLC is abysmally bad for any build that crits in small numbers. It's only seriously valuable in scorch builds or AM rotations. Other than that it's quite terrible.

SCB loses out in that it means you can't eat flame caps and unless you gain value from it's 10hit it's rather bad choice.

Head is clearly better than Crusade and I don't know why you're using Crusade instead of it (unless you don't have one). Personally I'll be voting Crusade/Head as it seems like CD-stacking is going out of fashion.

Etherealz · 02/21/08, 9:55 AM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Actually, I'd rather have them spam shadowbolts to increase shadow priest returns, CoE is already worth it with 1-1.5 mages these days. But that's going off-topic ...

I took a look at the new gear. Using T6 hat, Council cloak (it will beat Highborne at high haste levels), Reliquary necklace, Z'A ring and Hex/Skull, tailoring robe and ring enchants the passive gear bonuses are:
1416 damage, 284 crit, 166 hit, 350 haste. 334 sta, 370 int, 155 spi.

Plugging that into Man Out of Time - Theorycraft-o-Matic I get:
Fire+IV 1 crit = 0.75 dmg, 1 hit = 1.94 dmg, 1 haste = 1.02 dmg
(Frost 1 crit = 0.73 dmg, 1 hit = 2.03 dmg, 1 haste = 1.18 dmg)

So, what happened is that due to the massive amount of haste, its relative value went down quite a bit.
This makes T6 gloves and Chronicle offhand much more attractive, but they have too much hit and I'd lose some damage overall due to losing socket bonuses. We're talking about 0.5% or something, so it's a wash anyway.

Just wanted to point out that that we're reaching a point where the relative value of haste drops.

I think you should be using equivalencies using buffed stats including a shaman totem.
The stats come out more like this 1.00 Damage: 0.53 Hit Rating, 1.20 Crit Rating, 0.87 Haste Rating using lhivera's calculator.

However - I don't think that lhivera has incorporated the new GCD mechanics and thusly scorch is skewing the results. By my maths it is more like 1.00 Damage: 0.53 Hit Rating, 1.20 Crit Rating, 0.835 Haste Rating

Edit: that doesn't even begin to incorporate flamecaps, destruction pots and damage trinket procs which would move it further in haste's favor (the skull - of course pushing it back the other way)

Sguz · 02/21/08, 10:09 AM

First thx for your reply.
In fact i have a Skull and in fact just look at "Quantz" (Nihilum) and what do you see: a TLC togehter with a Skull... But you are right, TLC isn't good for a 2/48/11. I just wanted to list the 4 Trinkets.

Anyway, i am still using Crusade, but only because the Hed hasn't dropped for me yet (Damned roll luck).

I was wondering, if a permanent Crusade Buff (80 DMG, +27 Basedmg vs. Head) would make more benefit with IV, Flamecap, Skull, etc in comperison to the 53 Basedmg of Hex (and averange 88,2, if it is used on CD).

Pintofbrew · 02/21/08, 10:43 AM

Sguz: What another mage wears on armory is proof of nothing other than his logging out wearing it. He could be wearing it to farm, to look hot, to PvP, due to a missclick when selecting his Riding Crop, or in fact to throw dust in the eyes of all the people who use "Nihilum do it so it must be good" as an excuse for theorycrafting. Back when encounters were still being learned, logging off with missleading gear was a prime way of keeping competition tight during the race for the first kill. There is also the possibility anyone (not refering to Quantz specifically of course) is an idiot.

TLC is Horrifically bad for Fire. Icon is way ahead of it.

It's a toss between Head and Icon. If you can (a) keep Head on CD permanently and (b) pair it at least once with something (Which will probably be BL as you're better off pairing IV with Skull) then it'll outweigh Crusade. This is assuming Crusade does not switch off, because if it does you either have to 5xSc to ramp it up (which will be a massive DPS loss) or wait 22-30sec to get it's full benefit from Fireball.

Etherealz: Lhivera's doesn't output relative values correctly given 2.4 GCD and furthermore only calculates relative values given a certain Cycle it choses, which may not reflect the best choice. Vontre's is a lot more complex and accomplished for simulating Arcane in this respect hence you're probably working with a big error margin when you compare your results with Roywyn's, making the comparison rather pointless.

Cardynal · 02/21/08, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by Kaili

It seems like the Cast Sequence for Fire (2/48/11) is either wrong, displaying wrong or I'm a tard (one of the 3).

But it displays as :

Fire
Scorch
Scorch
Scorch
Fireball
Fireball
Fireball
Continues Fireball until end.

Is this intended by you ?

This is the optimal cast rotation for a fire mage who has another lesser geared fire mage who is forced to keep up scorch...which is what we do. I only cast scorch if i see the timer go to sub 2 seconds.

Cardynal · 02/21/08, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

The current wording of Emberstorm is "Increases dmg dealt by YOUR FIRE SPELLS" so you're right in that it's a wording change. However, it does not include any descriptor of the gain. I'd expect any scorch-like effect to read:

"Emberstorm: Increases lalala, and your X SPELL has a Y% To cause the Z DEBUFF on target which Increases All Fire Damage Taken By N and lasts M Seconds"

I don't think "damage of all fire spells" really means it's the new lockscorch. More than likely a case of bad vocabulary selection.

Well, it might be the why blizzard is taking away stacking everything.

I really hope the non-stacking hex/skull is simply a bug though.

◊ manly · 02/21/08, 1:27 PM

It won't scorch if you selected the option to use another mage to do the scorching for you...

◊ Vontre · 02/21/08, 2:07 PM

The scorch thing is a bug, I'll get a fix up. It should be of minimal impact.

[e] Hotfix has been posted

Maddmage · 02/21/08, 2:10 PM

I have what I believe to be an interesting observation (observation with TC using Vontre's spreadsheet to be precise):

So it is a fairly commonly accepted fact that before the spell hit cap, nothing is worth more than having spell hit on gear until it hits that 16%. However, while using the spreadsheet to compare between different gear sets, it seems that this is not always the case?

The two subsets I am comparing is between using [Mantle of Tirisfal](with glowing nightseye/potent noble topaz)/[Vindicator's Silk Cuffs](with potent noble topaz), and [Mantle of the Elven Kings]/[Focused Mana Bindings].

The difference between the first pair and the second is: -7 spell dmg; -17 spell crit; +37 spell hit. Also, the second pair puts me at 123 spell hit (roughly 10%), I am currently 40/0/21, so with the bugged EP, it puts me at roughly 16% spell hit. Now, here is the interesting part. As far as the Frostbolt spam theoretical numbers go, with the first pair I am at 1496 dps and 448710 total dmg; but with the second (spell hit capped) pair I am at 1479 dps and 443626 total dmg. So I am confused as to why would my dps/dmg DECREASE when I am using gear that hit caps me versus gear that's almost 40 spell hit away from the cap.

Thanks in advance for any help.

Phenom Z · 02/21/08, 4:47 PM

Long time lurker, first time poster here...

From my lurking, I know the general consensus here is that arcane sucks, compared to fire specs, even with 2 pieces of tier 5. I've seen biased arguments both sides, from arcane mages showing skewed WWS results to fire supporters assuming the world is always perfect and in this peachy existence fire will always outperform arcane and assume that if a player is a supporter of arcane, he should be committed. It's really a bunch of crap, especially on a quality forum such as this, which is a place of salvation for those like me who won't touch the WoW forums.

At any rate, here's my unbiased, mostly un-flasked/fooded, never power-infused, 1 shadow priest and 1 shaman partied WWS reports from a recent SSC run. I just acquired my second piece of tier 5 a little over a week ago, so my experience in raiding with this spec is very shallow and I still have a lot of room to improve my dps and improve my gear gems and itemization. I think there's only 1 other fire mage in most of these boss fights, and 2 fire mages on Morogrim. Both of these guys are really good players and when we were all fire, we would usually be right next to each other on the damage meters. As you can see I'm starting to pull away with my new spec. Maybe when we gear up more and start getting tier 6, fire will overtake arcane again. But, for the time being it appears to me that arcane is superior with 2-piece tier 5 against tier 5 bosses.

This WWS report is to my knowledge unbiased and single-parsed. You can sift through to find a way to discredit it because we all know arcane mages can't outdps equally geared fire mages in any fair boss fight, right?

Grai · 02/21/08, 5:15 PM

Was playing around on PTR, and discovered that Veins and Arcane Power will not stack anymore. If you do one after the other, they overwrite one another, rather then saying "you can't do this yet".

Testing AP and Lust now, if I can find a friendly shammy.
*edit* Yea, they still stack. Veins will pop if you trigger it while lust is up, but no casting time difference, just a wasted CD. This is why I wanted to test AP and Lust

This patch is looking worse and worse.

Joq · 02/21/08, 5:28 PM

@Phenom Z:
Arcane is viable at Tier 5 because of 2pc T5. I don't think there's an argument against using arcane for this level, as I've seen good results from mages in my guild using it at the same level you are (5/6 SSC). The argument is against people who claim arcane is still viable at full T6, when it just isn't because it doesn't scale as well as fire or frost when you get to that gear level. 2pc T5 becomes then either a crutch for your main nuke with comparatively bad stats, or you get better stats and lose what kept your bad scaling up.

The annoyance is directed at people who come in and claim arcane is competitive at T6 with no evidence or skewed WWS, and (as far as I know) any comments directed at arcane in T5 are of a joking nature (eg fire is better for Al'ar than arcane).

And after looking at the WWS, you don't have a fair comparison with your fire mage. He looks like he's suffering from not having a shadowpriest, so it is, in the end, a biased parse.

@Grai
*jaw drops*

Maddmage · 02/21/08, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Grai

Was playing around on PTR, and discovered that Veins and Arcane Power will not stack anymore. If you do one after the other, they overwrite one another, rather then saying "you can't do this yet".

Testing AP and Lust now, if I can find a friendly shammy.
*edit* Yea, they still stack. Veins will pop if you trigger it while lust is up, but no casting time difference, just a wasted CD. This is why I wanted to test AP and Lust

This patch it looking worse and worse.

WHAT THE EFF?!?! I honestly want to know the reasoning behind this change (well, not even this new unannounced nerf, but the non-stacking IV/BL in the first place). Now I would like to say that we have some good raiding mages in my guild, yet we're nowhere close to significantly topping the meters (rogues have that spot generally); so this must not be due to mages being "zomg so OP!!!11!!" in PVE situations. Sounds to me like it's yet another one of those changes that is accommodating PVP, because we all know every single arena team has a mage and a shammy for that IV/BL burst. GG Blizzard, GG.

darrenan · 02/21/08, 5:44 PM

Have the spell damage coefficients for Fire Ward and Frost Ward been published anywhere? I've searched this site, wowhead, thottbot, wowwiki, can't find this information anywhere.

◊ Vontre · 02/21/08, 6:41 PM

More updates to the simulator. On the backend I changed how the program stores data to reduce database usage, so let me know if any problems come up because of that. I also added the ability to link your page to other people. Every time you change settings, the url automatically changes to a long version that can be linked anywhere to show the same results.

For example, this should display my comparison between fire, arcane, and warlocks:

http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...4d33859d25645d

Grai · 02/21/08, 6:42 PM

In follow up to my last post re: Veins and AP, it seems that other PTR'ers found this change as well and have since posted. Blizzard has responded:

We are hoping to have this fixed on the PTR soon, but currently Icy Veins and Arcane Power should stack.

It is indeed a bug. Return to your regularly scheduled Arcane Spec theorycrafting.

Mathris · 02/21/08, 7:00 PM

@PhenomZ

Your fire mage is doing way too much scorch to do good dps.

On lurker he did 29 scorch compared to 55 fireball but for this fight is kinda normal since he has to stack scorch on lurker after every dive because he's the only fire mage.

On Leo he did 14 AB, 33 FB and 38 scorch which is definitly not the best ratio of spells for a deep fire mage but again this fight is not the best to use travelling spell such as fireball because there's a lot of aggro reset. He also had to kill his inner demon which is probably why he used AB and lost dps at the same time.

Same thing on karathress too many scorches for a deep fire build. 60 FB compared to 47 scorch.

On Morogrim the ration FB/scorch is better 71FB compared to 21scorch somehow he never used flamestrike/blastwave/dragon breath for aoe.. he used blizzard probably for imp blizzard to help control the murlock.

I personnaly dont think this WWS proves arcane is better than fire when the deep fire mage did not play is build correctly (because of skill, how the fight work or group setup). Deep fire build is all about spamming fireball not half fireball and half scorch.

Since he was the only fire mage in the raid (except morogrim) he probably never got CoE (which he shouldn't) but you had CoS (i hope) which is 10% less dps for him right there.

Kavan · 02/21/08, 7:45 PM

Originally Posted by Vontre

More updates to the simulator. On the backend I changed how the program stores data to reduce database usage, so let me know if any problems come up because of that. I also added the ability to link your page to other people. Every time you change settings, the url automatically changes to a long version that can be linked anywhere to show the same results.

For example, this should display my comparison between fire, arcane, and warlocks:

http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...4d33859d25645d

Check these stats Vontre. http://www.magegraf.com/index.php?ha...84e5825ab6b215

It seems your spell selection logic has some problems with high spirit regen and reduces the use pots/gems/evo for some reason.