Etherealz: Lhivera's doesn't output relative values correctly given 2.4 GCD and furthermore only calculates relative values given a certain Cycle it choses, which may not reflect the best choice. Vontre's is a lot more complex and accomplished for simulating Arcane in this respect hence you're probably working with a big error margin when you compare your results with Roywyn's, making the comparison rather pointless.
I mentioned in my post that it does not incorporate 2.4 gcd specifically, and furthermore both rowyn and I were working a with 2/48/11 build. The only reason I mentioned Lhivera's script was to compare directly with roywyn - so I fail to see why my comparison is pointless. I was simply pointing out that stat equivalence should be using fully buffed stats.
If you do one after the other, they overwrite one another, rather then saying "you can't do this yet".
It's the same with IV and Heroism. Of course it was already announced in the patch notes but I expected them to simply not stack even when they're both active. When I activeated IV on PTR today I would simply not get any buff from Heroism at all. I can only cross my fingers and hope that Blizzard will reconsider this 'fix'.
I mentioned in my post that it does not incorporate 2.4 gcd specifically, and furthermore both rowyn and I were working a with 2/48/11 build. The only reason I mentioned Lhivera's script was to compare directly with roywyn - so I fail to see why my comparison is pointless. I was simply pointing out that stat equivalence should be using fully buffed stats.
Perhaps I worded wrongly: I was refering specifically to the value of haste. Given Lhivera's values haste for GCD<1.5 sec your equivalence for haste is skewed.
The annoyance is directed at people who come in and claim arcane is competitive at T6 with no evidence or skewed WWS, and (as far as I know) any comments directed at arcane in T5 are of a joking nature (eg fire is better for Al'ar than arcane).
And after looking at the WWS, you don't have a fair comparison with your fire mage. He looks like he's suffering from not having a shadowpriest, so it is, in the end, a biased parse.
@Grai
*jaw drops*
You can only reach 4p t6 bonus when killing illidari council, but what really make the difference is not only this bonus, it's the sunwell stuff with tons of haste , when you gonna get 250+ passive haste. So yes, I will switch in sunwell, when I'll have my 4p t6 and the tailoring chest. To me, no reason to switch before and loot the crappy t6 spaulders or something like that.
I lurk this threads a lot also, and i rarely if at all see people bash arcane. The general consensus when it comes to specs in this game should be play what you enjoy.
Btw fire has more lee-way that arcane with longer firing range and 70% push back resist, hence your comment about fire supporters living in some idealist environment is not justified.
The idealism has nothing to do with fire, gentlemen. It has to do with pure theorycraft. Theorycraft is not about "what if" it's about optimum realistic feasibility. Things aren't all peachy and rosy for any spec but "non-peachy" examples are irrelevant; You may be picked as the first doom from Azgalore. You may get two Carrion Swarms in a row. Who cares? You don't spec frost specifically so you can Cold Snap -> Iceblock the second one do you?
Comparissons are only of merit between optimum setups; on a perfect day, what will arcane do vs. fire, where "perfect" does not mean statistics' biggest fudging of all time, DMF buff, chain bloodlusts or PIs, it means realistic though favourable conditions. In current 2.3 there is little to no proof that arcane is competitive with fire, and that's that. What happens at T5 level has been documented and analyzed and we all know that yes, you can perform at T5 with arcane for a multitude of reasons but your pwning damage meters on Morogrim and Karathress are irrelevant because once you're on the T6 bandwagon fire is undoubtably in the lead.
I've posted before: I honestly don't get why Arcane mages are so defensive and bitter about it. Every week there seems to be some arcane mage who shows up with "y'all got it wrong and you gave arcane a bad stick" and it's -always- some crap WWS with sub-par fire mages, with arcane-favouring conditions, with no CoE, gear difference, group difference, etc etc etc. From parsings with 1:1 scorch-fireball, to firemages with 108 hit rating, to Spellfire + 2/5*T5 vs. 4/5*T4. Don't want your WWS picked appart with a fine-tooth-comb and shown to be bullshit? Don't post it and claim it to be otherwise then. This isn't the Tax Man's office, we don't read WWS parsings to embarass people because we're mean-hearted fat-cats, we read WWS in order to better our understanding and double-check (again) that there isn't something we're missing.
The only arcane parsing that has shown up in the last months worth any merit at all has been Kavan's. It was judged, examined and proven to be true and honestly fascinating. I pingponged a dozen PMs to Kavan about it and his contributions have spured this spate of Arcane research for 2.4 that Roywyn, Galzohar, Vontre and others are doing now, so your impressions that EJ is "arcane-bashing, fire supremacy" is unfounded and irrelevant. Even manly said he'd respec the instant it was proven to be superior and I believe him.
Please also note, I'm not aiming any of my words at Phenom Z specifically or any other poster. I honestly think you arcane gentlemen and ladies out there need to re-think your attitudes. With few very notable exceptions the attitude of arcane posters seems to be defensive at the least and sulking at the worst. Why is it we never get Frost mages show up with "y'all are wrong" posts?
Last edited by Pintofbrew : 02/22/08 at 8:53 AM.
Reason: How could I forget you Galz?
That's because us frost mages are too busy having buttloads of fun with our spec to bash anyone else. Not to mention it's kind of silly bashing specs that do out-perform us on damage meters more often than not, unless we work really hard and know exactly what we're doing to maximize frost potential.
However, I was chugging some numbers through Vontre's DPS sheet the other day in the quest for personal optimization given my current gearset and I came up with some interesting values for the 2/48/11 spec. I posted here in Vontre's thread with the numbers I was getting, in case you guys want to look at them. I'm pretty sure I was just doing something wrong or interpreting something wrong, since to me it looks like arcane was coming out on top in all my gear calcs regardless of the spec I was modeling.
Note: All the tests have been done on the live realms.
Since AB rotation cast times were buggy, I decided to check [Ashtongue Talisman of Insight] as well, as I've been using that for frost for a while. <insert random whine about caster trinkets from raids>
Seems that when chain casting frostbolts, the first cast after the crit that procs it won't get the haste bonus.
It doesn't proc "fast enough" to effect the next cast when chain casting.
When spamming scorch at 1.38s cast time (some haste) - leaving a 0.12s cast gap due to GCD, it also didn't activate fast enough to affect the next cast
So, if only affects 2 casts for frostbolt, and one for fireball. Can most likely affect 2 casts for fireball once you get past ~20% passive haste.
I did test the [Design: Mystical Skyfire Diamond], and it correctly affects the next cast.
So, I don't think it's an issue with Quartz (it gets the data from the server anyway), and the listed numbers are correct.
Seems I've been using a junk trinket for a few months now. Dang. At least it's nice for AE spam come 2.4.
[Edit]: Could anyone check if it works that way on the PTR as well? I'll try that later, but I don't know if EU PTRs in the US with a 400ms ping are reliable to test with ...
[Edit]: True, could be that "next spell" mechanics are different. I remember reading some fixes on "Netherwind Focus" on "Nature's Grace" (druid -0.5s cast after a crit talent) until they worked properly.
Makes me really curious about MSD mechanics on the PTR (beside the fact that it's junk now).
It's most puzzling that MSD will correctly work yet ATOI won't. One would expect two similar effects to work in the same way. Perhaps it's because MSD has a "next spell" descriptor rather than a "you gain" one. Possibly the later delays somehow in being processed?
The 1.38 scorch is quite interesting in that respect, 0.12sec is plenty of time and you'd expect that much time-gap to be signifficant enough to process the buff gain. Possibly the spell's "what buffs is player wearing?" query goes through as soon as you que the spell meaning that even if it delays due to the stopcasting fix or waiting for the GCD you're still technically not getting new buffs because they haven't applied yet.
All in all, it's looking like any random-proc item is losing a lot of value if there's doubt about their operation.
However, I was chugging some numbers through Vontre's DPS sheet the other day in the quest for personal optimization given my current gearset and I came up with some interesting values for the 2/48/11 spec. I posted here in Vontre's thread with the numbers I was getting, in case you guys want to look at them. I'm pretty sure I was just doing something wrong or interpreting something wrong, since to me it looks like arcane was coming out on top in all my gear calcs regardless of the spec I was modeling.
You had 2T5 on, which is huge for Arcane. Also, if I read the numbers correctly (1.6k DPS, 480k damage), Vontre's was set to a 5 minute fight, 300 seconds. A short fight means that you spam AB a lot.
If you increase the fight duration, you'll see the numbers of arcane decline slowly.
Arcane will also fall further behind when you get 4T6. You'll have to downgrade gear to keep 2T5, which will make you lose 4T6.
Last edited by Roywyn : 02/22/08 at 10:24 AM.
Reason: I fail at numbers :(
The fights were modeled to the default 300 seconds (5 min) fight duration. I increased the duration to 8 minutes (480 seconds) and fire popped right to the top. I'll pay more attention to durations of our average kills in BT/Hyj so I can better assess these builds. Thanks Roywyn!
Perhaps I worded wrongly: I was refering specifically to the value of haste. Given Lhivera's values haste for GCD<1.5 sec your equivalence for haste is skewed.
Yes I mentioned this specifically in my original post. You've said nothing I didn't already.
Hi folks, I've been playing around a bit with Vontres new tool (Magegraph), and there are some things I don't understand in the cast sequence, perhaps you can help me.
When I put in the Icon as a trinket, the effect timing shows its usage... once every minute: (always the first shown)
13.22: Icon of the Silver Crescent
75.57: Icon of the Silver Crescent
136.1: Icon of the Silver Crescent
198.36: Icon of the Silver Crescent
261.32: Icon of the Silver Crescent
Doesn't it have a 2-minute CD? Or am I missing something here?
Also, Icy Veins seems to be used once every 90 seconds, and the effect of cold snap on it is somehow ignored (on a frost build):
It's most puzzling that MSD will correctly work yet ATOI won't. One would expect two similar effects to work in the same way. Perhaps it's because MSD has a "next spell" descriptor rather than a "you gain" one. Possibly the later delays somehow in being processed?
All in all, it's looking like any random-proc item is losing a lot of value if there's doubt about their operation.
At least haste procs, spell dmg buffs should not be affected with ping <1s since they are calculated at the end of the cast.
But I don't think it's a problem of procs, for me it seems that that the client just waits for the confirmation of the buff from the server until such buffs affect spells casting times.
The problem with ATOI seems the same like Arcane Blast ramp ups: You start the casting of the next spell (client side) before the old one is finished on the server and its proc or AB ramp up is processed. So when the client gets the info from the server about a haste buff the casting of the next spell is already startet and cast time doesn't get recalculated.
I've seen the same problem with Icy Veins, when I start casting immediatly after activating IV, the first cast seems not get its cast time reduced. Can anybody else confirm that. (And post the mod for Quartz wich shows total cast time?)
However there are some effects wich don't wait for a confirmation from the server like the mentioned MSD, Netherwind Focus and of course POM.
I've seen the same problem with Icy Veins, when I start casting immediatly after activating IV, the first cast seems not get its cast time reduced. Can anybody else confirm that. (And post the mod for Quartz wich shows total cast time?)
Can't confirm that. I have always used a macro to do that, and the first cast always benefits from IV. Here is the macro:
Kadgar, I'm not sure it's a matter of Ping. If you notice Roywyn's data MSD proc is processed immediately which either indicates it's only needed client-side and not server-side or there's some deeper mechanics or maths-handling issue going on.
As for IV, I'm curious: do you consistently not get IV processed on the first spell if you quicly press/click it? I've never used IV outside of a macro and perhaps it's the nature of info-packet sent to server of the macro that's causing this. If you're having trouble distinguishing on Fbolt or Fball, experimentation on Pyroblast will make it a lot clearer as a 20% haste on 6sec is deffinitely more distinguishable than 20% on 2.5sec.
Etherealz: You seem to be offended for whatever reason. This was not my intention and I do apologize.
It seems your spell selection logic has some problems with high spirit regen and reduces the use pots/gems/evo for some reason.
Not sure if some of the buffs are overlapping from my previous builds and your builds or your just going balls out with buffs, but the link above gives me both Mana Tide + Totem of Wrath. I can't see that happening! Also shows 3 piece spellstrike + 4 piece t5 +4 piece t6 bonus.
I do have a question for you Kavan: Have you done any number crunching with the [Pendant of the Violet Eye] trinket with the 2.4 deep arcane specs?
I put Kavan's stat equivalences (1.014 int = 1.462 spi = 1.544 dmg = 1.922 crit rating = 1.679 mp5 = 2.393 haste , based on tier 5 gear level) in the lootrank calculator, the Pendant scores quite high, but keep in mind lootrank doesn't take the procs of trinkets into account.
Clearly the static buff is more valuable than either Icon or Hex head given Kavan's assumptions. The use however is quite worthless as it doesn't scale with anything. Back in 2.2 AM spam it would be good for about up to 750 mana per use, and that's assuming old MSD-AM spam, so it's safe to assume it'll be a good deal less mana nowadays and arguably a lot more insignifficant in 2.4 given passive regen hits the sky. The question remains what relative value do you place on the Use ability of trinkets. I find it hard to believe that a Hex-head sync'd once at start of encounter and once at 6m with IV+AP on AB spam (and twice just mashed as soon as it's CD is up) isn't enough to push it's value furher than the rather paltry Pendant.
The new JC BOP trinket however, makes a very interesting prospect. Passive intellect (not to mention a dump of stamina... Is it me or is JC muscling in -again- on Engineering trinkets?) and spellpower on use. Arguably one of the better choices for mages of the Kavan-style arcane variety.
Personally, I find it funny/sad that mage TC involves working around bugs. Elemental Precision giving 6% hit to frost and AB debuff not quite working as intended. It is sad to say, but ultimately this affects TC, and ultimately imbalances spec comparison to favor one spec or another for something that has got nothing to do with the spec at hand.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Hi folks, I've been playing around a bit with Vontres new tool (Magegraph), and there are some things I don't understand in the cast sequence, perhaps you can help me.
When I put in the Icon as a trinket, the effect timing shows its usage... once every minute: (always the first shown)
Doesn't it have a 2-minute CD? Or am I missing something here?
Also, Icy Veins seems to be used once every 90 seconds, and the effect of cold snap on it is somehow ignored (on a frost build):
I suppose I'm missing something here about how the simulator works... would appreciate if you could give me a short lesson
Kadgar, I'm not sure it's a matter of Ping. If you notice Roywyn's data MSD proc is processed immediately which either indicates it's only needed client-side and not server-side or there's some deeper mechanics or maths-handling issue going on.
My thought on it is a combination of two effects (in terms of MSD vs. IV).
1. Activation: MSD relies on a proc, which would be determined by the server and sent to the client, activating the haste. IV, on the other hand, relies on the client sending the activation to the server, and the server then sending back that you get haste.
2. Buff vs. Spell+: MSD also gives the single next spell haste, which may simply be a "Whatever, give it to the spell" thing, while a buff from other effects require the server to process the effect and the giving of the effect to the particular player. Just like when self-buffing AI/MA or whatever, it sometimes takes ~.5s from clicking to it actually displaying, simply because of processing.
Those two effects combined are my beliefs on this. Granted I could be completely idiotic/wrong on this, but that's just how my head relates the ideas. Hope it helps some.
Ed: Messed with the calculator some, and it's treating SCB as a trinket, rather than a mana gem use (popping it instantly). Also, how is SUC calculated in that?
02/21/08, 7:55 PM
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