◊ manly

The general conscencus amongst most TC I have seen so far is that the execute range accounts for 15% of the fight duration.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Hate Monkey

Only if you're full raid is alive.

But with the nerf to our trinkets not stacking anymore on the ptr, has Icon/Hex lost any power to it? I know we've lost our whole real power to do huge numbers, specially with IV and BL/Hero not stacking anymore, but do we lose that much more dps by the no stacking trinkets?

 

Prod

You could get around the faster execute range by nicely asking your shaman to BL late, and save your cooldowns. Your effective damage output in <20% health was greater than 20% of your damage, even if the duration was shorter. But with these recent changes, I doubt that would be so anymore. So yes.

 

Hate Monkey

Ask nicely? No, just tell him if he wants to raid then do as the group wants.

But you missed what I was asking really. Since we can't stack Icon/Hex with Skull anymore, do Icon/Hex lose a lot of their usefulness?
And at the same time, how much of an impact is not having IV being able to stack with Bloodlust/Heroism going to make? Specially on the trinket cooldown usage side.

Do we want to stagger cooldowns even more now with the upcoming changes?

 

◊ manly

I'm not sure I can answer that, last I tested on PTR they were still stacking together despise the notes. What didn't stack was AP and IV.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Jarlyn

As of Sunday (our last PTR raid), Skull+HSH were not stacking together. That may have changed in the past few days (who knows, really), but it was definitely the case for me on Sunday.

 

Cookinator

I'm a Frost Mage, 10/0/51 with 1019 damage with Robe of Hateful Echoes. This week i picked up both that robe and the Robe of Departed Spirits from ZA. I know haste is good and is normally better than damage, but how much damage? Gemming Robe of Hateful echoes with +12, +9, +9 spell dmg, which chest piece would be better in yall's opinions?

Armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

 

Muphrid

[Robe of Hateful Echoes] with 30 +damage in gems versus [Robe of Departed Spirits]?

As Frost I typically use 1 crit = .6 +damage and 1 haste = 1.1 +damage for the purposes of eyeballing items. With that in mind, and with the gems you chose, I'd say Hydross' robe slightly edges out the ZA robe.

That said, I view both as step-ups on the way to getting Vashj's robe, [Vestments of the Sea-Witch], which will blow both out of the water and help you shuffle around some hit.

And again, I was merely eyeballing it. You may want to check out Theorycraft-o-matic or Vontre's spreadsheet for a better idea.

 

Hate Monkey

Yeap, as of tonight still not stacking. This and the IV not stacking change are going to hurt soon.


Ok, going to make this big and bold:
This is the Theory Craft thread, not the help me thread.

The help me thread is here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16781-mage_help_me_please/

 

◊ manly

Not that I encourage people to exploit bugs or anything, but the stats bug is still alive on the PTR right now. This is a great opportunity to test theorycraft with values that were not possible before (read: 1 million+ spell damage kind of values).

I'm not too sure what to test except for cap values of stats, but crit does goes all the way up to 100%+, and you sitll get 1% resist on all mobs, as expected. Spell haste has definately no cap. If anyone gets a good idea of what is worth testing for future knowledge, please post it up asap for this unique opportunity that we will probably never get again.

Also, make sure to spec 5/5 mind mastery as you will absolutely need that talent to get high spell dmg.

EDIT: if someone could, please record your int/spi and mana regen, so that we can validate the currently used int/spi regen formula.

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Akuman

Here's what Whitetooth from Ratingbuster got apparently.

From http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t21280-i...rycrafting_hq/

So if you have 500 int and 200 spirit you get

(0.001 + (200*0.009327*(500^0.5))*5 = 208.56 mp5

<@Terror> "It's easy to forget what a sin is in the middle of a battlefield."
<@cky> opposite over hypotenuse

 

Hate Monkey

Ok, so I think I'm on to something here, and that's a big I think.

So with the changes to the ability to stack trinkets gone, is it now best to activate your highest on use trinket first, nothing else (Flamecap is ok), cast Fireball 3 times, scorch(I know bad practice), hit IV, Combustion, then 2nd trinket and any remaining cooldowns outside of getting a bloodlust.

For this to work out, need about 4% passive haste to work correctly, BT or ZA ring+bracers

0 Trinket+Flame cap
3 Fireball hit
6 Fireball hit
9 Fireball hit
10.5 scorch hit+IV+Combustion
12.8~ Fireball hit
15.1~ Fireball hit
17.4~ Fireball hit
19.8~ Fireball hit
20 Pop 2nd trinket(assume Skull)+rest of cooldowns+destro pot+(~~berserking for Trolls)
~~1.7s cast Fireballs till berserking+IV off (10.5s of Fireballs, 6 total)
~~2.6s cast Fireballs till Skull off (7.8s of Fireballs, 3 total, 1.3s of scorch, 1 cast) 19.6s
~~1 Last Fireball under Skull effect, total time elapsed 42.2 seconds~
1.95s~ Cast fireballs till IV off (11.7s of Fireballs, 6 total)
2.6s~ cast fireballs till Skull off (5.2s of Fireball, 2 cast, 1.3s of Scorch, 1 cast) 18.2~s
1 Last fireball under Skull effect, total time elapsed 40.8 seconds~

Reminder: These numbers are not 100%, and there might be an extra fireball in there, or 1 less.

edit: Fixed the numbers, separated berserking numbers from non-troll numbers.

 

Cornelium

I'm a bit ignorant about maths, but probably you should compare stats basing yourself on itemlvl points (which i ignore), rather than the sheer numbers. As far as i know, crit costs quite more than other stats, while haste costs less. Example: if a random item with itemlevel 100 has got 100 spelldamage, the same item will not have 100 spell critical strike rating in another shape, nor 100 spell haste rating. Anyone can understand this easily by looking at gems, which have the same ilvl: 12 spelldamage compares to 10 spellcrit. Which is roughly 17% less.
And while i'm on it, anyone knows a reliable source of each stat's itemlvl comparison?

EDIT: Yeah i only read when i see there's 5ish new pages of comments. Not a big fan of forum-refreshing hence why the late replying.

Make love, not war!

 

kadgar

He did exactly what you suggest. And you also have already answered your own question in your post - Gems.
Take the epic Hyjal BT Gems you see that all ratings and base stats (excluding stamina) have the same item budget - 10 (spell) crit rating / 10 defense rating / 10 (spell) haste rating / 10 hit rating / 10 agility / int / 10 spirit ...

 

Cornelium

I was under the impression they vary, tho. Which is why i ask.
For example.
Red rare gem: 9 spelldamage. Yellow rare gem: 8 spellcrit. Crit is worth 88,88%.
Red epic gem: 12 spelldamage. Yellow epic gem: 10 spellcrit. Crit is worth 83,33%.

Make love, not war!

 

Sengiratolom

Considdering the regen changes and a 40/0/21 spec i made a possible template using 2pt5 and 4pt6

70 Human Mage

(note that the neck doesn't have a socket even though it should, adding another 10 int pre talents/bok= 17 int)

wich with the new meta [Ember Skyfire Diamond] would result in 1060 ish int for humans raidbuffed and +/- 1100 for gnomes

allowing long periods of arcane blast spamming and regening mana by spamming frostbolts, but i wonder how that would compare to a similarly geared fire mage (who ofc would use molten armor and dmg gems instead of int) in overall dps

 

kadgar

According to Roywyns post: 1 rating / base stat = 1,15 spell dmg.
Rare gem: 8*1,15 = 9,2
Epic gem: 10*1,15 = 11,5
The rest is rounding.

 

Grai

I'm not really sure what you expect us to get out of this. You've made a mage in a "perfect group" with shadowpriest, elem sham, and moonkin. Also, a retadin. Then, you've taken what you percieve to be the best gear and stacking int/spirit when (at least I haven't seen) it hasn't been proven that those stats outweigh stacking spell dam yet. It's highly unlikely that a mage will find themselves in this ideal setup, or with a need for as much int/spirit as you're suggesting.

You're suggesting a mode of theorycraft (post 2.3 - 40/0/21) that's already been examined in this thread, and I'm not sure what you're contributing to the discussion. Yes you've got a big mana pool and lots of regen. But while things are still on the PTR, looking at the gear this way is kind of redundant.

Find some earlier posts by Kavan that outline what you're suggesting. They back it up with some solid and interesting TC too.

[Mage] TC after 2.3
[Mage] TC after 2.3
[Mage] TC after 2.3

 

Sengiratolom

i didn't include a retri pala in the template.

but now back to the topic:

the point of posting a template with int stacking to the point i have is to allow longer arcane blast spam, wich indeed has been discussed earlyer, the TC you linked is what gave me the idea for the template.

Even though the tc about int/spi hasn't been proven yet it seemed like an interesting change + finaly making use of the spi on our gear.

i was wondering what other TCers here thought of said profile

 

◊ manly

No look, I know thats the formula the TC has. I don't really care about what TC predicts -- the problem of a lot of TC we have is that it was tested only under the possible available scenarios. Currently on the PTR you can test with 1 million intellect and 1 million spirit if you will -- it allows you to see if our TC is accurate or not.

For example, this could be used to know far more precisely the formula used for spells downranking (ie: test with 200k spell dmg).

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bug Arcane Potency only applies to the first Arcane Missile bolt.

 

Ginkgo

It's .855 according to wowwiki

 

Grapeape

Has anyone done the math behind what gear choices will be best out new badges items in 2.4?

Gear progression Kara,GL clear ZA 5/6

I was thinking for me Robe,Pants (Crit) and ring would be best place to start. Still hoping for Hexblade from ZA or S2/S3 blade.


Thanks in advance

 

Pintofbrew

Guys can you please, please, for the sake of all that's Holy NOT post questions concerning what your spec/gear/guild/raid need? This is the TC thread and in case it eludes you, TC Stands for Theory Craft, not Information Center.

If you've got Questions for the sake of all of us, direct them to http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t16781-mage_help_me_please/ Not in here. It's getting seriously tiring and annoying reading this endless line of people who are under the impression their loot optimization is a worthy matter of Theorycraft interest.

 

Aegrus

From a purely mathematical, data analysis standpoint I think this is a very important point. Any formula in the game that TCers would like to back calculate, until now, has been limited to calculations involving the 0-1000 orders of magnitude. For linear formulas with known inputs you obviously only need two points to nail down the internal calculation, for more complex calculations having access to data orders of magnitude higher than that mentioned above is a huge advantage. It still leaves the complexity of figuring out what inputs the function takes and what general form it has but at least you'd have more than adequate data available. I'm not much of a TCer so I can't really add more specifics to the discussion but I'm hoping someone out there will take advantage of this opportunity for the benefit of the rest of us lazys.

 

xiaoxin21

They have been new additions to the PTR mainly for gems and alchemy.

Notable additions for mages include +6spell/+5haste pyrestone.( A good substitute for spinels)

They also added a better epic versions of the Alchemist stone that gives +54hit (!) and 40% effect on pots.
Wearing that, skull and the 50 hit staff can nearly account for all the hit you ever need.

I am wondering how would this affect mages in 2.4, and how the new pyrestone compares with spinel.