Ok I made the change. The effect is rather surprising but I still don't get the same numbers. For Arcane/Frost I still see DMC ahead of TLC. One thing that did change is that TLC is now ahead of SCB for Arcane/IV.
Ok I found where you made an error. You said if first AB does not crit then you need 7.5, if it does crit you need 8.5. That is not correct. If first AB does not crit, then it did not create any charge, meaning that the 7.5 actually starts from second AB. So regardless of whether first AB crits you need 8.5 crits on average.
Yes, the first charge of AB and FB will always be disregarded in this case, which will pull the numbers even lower.
98.9 for AB and 85.8 for FB so in any scenario where you get to cast almost equal number of ABs and FBs, DMC will win. You need to cast more ABs to pull TLC further in this case, which just makes it another judgment call for each individual fight to decide which trinket to use.
It's self-sustained WC at the cost of mind mastery (and 3% int and 10% cc crit). This should be more dps than deep frost due to superior scaling, holds its own WC, and takes care of the mages not having WC thing.
It's self-sustained WC at the cost of mind mastery (and 3% int and 10% cc crit). This should be more dps than deep frost due to superior scaling, holds its own WC, and takes care of the mages not having WC thing.
40/0/21 with WC: 2502 DPS
40/0/21 without WC: 2401 DPS
33/0/28 with WC: 2299 DPS
You lose 8 DPS with 4/5 Arcane Mind, lose 17 DPS with 2/3 Arcane Potency, lose 177 DPS with 0/5 Arcane Potency.
Full frost with Soulfrost and no T5 is rated as 2348 DPS.
33/0/28 really looks like a bad deal to me. You gain 10% crit on your DPM spell, but lose more than 190 spell power from mind mastery. The numbers back that up.
First of all Kavan, excellent software mate, I really like Rawr. I do have a question though.
Playing around with different gear setups I noticed that Rawr will display 20 spelldmg to gloves as superior to 15 spellhit even though im below the hitcap (16%). Experimenting showed me what seems to be a 15% hitcap built into the script, as soon as I geared for more than 15% (Elemental Precision included) it shows 20spelldmg to gloves as the better choice and when I drop below 15% it shows 15 spellhit on gloves as the better choice. This change should really occur around the 16% mark since that is our spellhit cap right?
You may be specifying in the "buffs" section that dranei buff of 1% accuracy. Commanding Cheesecake or whatever it's called. Sacreligeous alliance. Quite easy mistake to do if you just assume "click everything" for raidbuff status.
You may be specifying in the "buffs" section that dranei buff of 1% accuracy. Commanding Cheesecake or whatever it's called. Sacreligeous alliance. Quite easy mistake to do if you just assume "click everything" for raidbuff status.
Easy mistake to make indeed but I have checked of everything to be sure.
Experimenting showed me what seems to be a 15% hitcap built into the script, as soon as I geared for more than 15% (Elemental Precision included) it shows 20spelldmg to gloves as the better choice and when I drop below 15% it shows 15 spellhit on gloves as the better choice. This change should really occur around the 16% mark since that is our spellhit cap right?
That sounds perfectly fine. You overcap hit with your glove enchant.
If you have 16% hit, spell hit does nothing. Damage is the choice.
If you have 15.5% hit, the hit enchant gives you 0.5% hit (as you cap at 16%), which is ~12 damage equivalent or so. Damage enchant is more.
If you drop below ~15.2% hit, you get 0.8% hit from the spell hit enchant, which is about equal to the damage enchant.
Drop under that threshold, and you get even more hit from the enchant, making it better than the damage enchant.
I guess that's what you see as well, from how you describe it.
That sounds perfectly fine. You overcap hit with your glove enchant.
If you have 16% hit, spell hit does nothing. Damage is the choice.
If you have 15.5% hit, the hit enchant gives you 0.5% hit (as you cap at 16%), which is ~12 damage equivalent or so. Damage enchant is more.
If you drop below ~15.2% hit, you get 0.8% hit from the spell hit enchant, which is about equal to the damage enchant.
Drop under that threshold, and you get even more hit from the enchant, making it better than the damage enchant.
I guess that's what you see as well, from how you describe it.
I have a question regarding the use of rawr.mage. I tried this tool and I like its functionality alot, but I can't seem to get it to calculate Darkmoon Card: Crusade? Have I noobed out or is it in fact a bit of an oversight that it is not included among the trinkets?
I have a question regarding the use of rawr.mage. I tried this tool and I like its functionality alot, but I can't seem to get it to calculate Darkmoon Card: Crusade? Have I noobed out or is it in fact a bit of an oversight that it is not included among the trinkets?
I'm not sure if this is the thread for your question, the Rawr thead would probably be better.
1. Right Click on a trinket in the comparison side.
2. Click Edit.
3. Click Add.
4. Pull up DMC in wowhead.
5. Enter the item number (In this case 31856)
6. Click Ok.
Even with epic gems, the hit enchant gives 15 hit rating at the cost of 20 spell damage, when you could just swap damage to hit at the rate of 6:5, meaning gaining 20 damage on the gloves would cost you, at worst, 18 spell damage. If you're closer to the cap and/or use non-epic gems to cap your hit, the tradeoff favors damage enchant even more.
This holds true for any spec that values hit as the best use of itemization points, but then again if damage is better than hit per itemization point the damage enchant is again superior.
This makes me wonder why you even consider a hit enchant unless none of your gear has any sockets or maybe if you have some wierd (read: unrealistic to have excessive spinel supply) gem availability problems.
The actual spell hit rates are accurate, however when I click on an item slot and sort the list of items it gives me by dps items at the top of the list still contain gemming for hit. Also the new haste/dmg and pure haste gems from 2.4 aren't implemented yet I take it, would be awesome to get a look at these. Anyways other than that small problem I've had alot of fun planning upgrades and seeing how the number change for different situations, thanks for the great tool!
edit: as a side note my brother plays a warlock and as per the discussion on here he was wondering how firelock would fare next patch. If I check immolate's box and look at incinerate's dps will that be the same as a rotation of keeping immolate up well spamming incinerate otherwise?
Even with epic gems, the hit enchant gives 15 hit rating at the cost of 20 spell damage, when you could just swap damage to hit at the rate of 6:5, meaning gaining 20 damage on the gloves would cost you, at worst, 18 spell damage. If you're closer to the cap and/or use non-epic gems to cap your hit, the tradeoff favors damage enchant even more.
This holds true for any spec that values hit as the best use of itemization points, but then again if damage is better than hit per itemization point the damage enchant is again superior.
This makes me wonder why you even consider a hit enchant unless none of your gear has any sockets or maybe if you have some wierd (read: unrealistic to have excessive spinel supply) gem availability problems.
Im firespecced so the quest for hitcap is very real, thats why I looked into it in the first place, I was just to tired when I started looking at this to realize the difference in dmg tradeoff versus spellhit gain between the two enchants. Looking at it now I see how it works though.
2657 DPS (CoS 13%, CoE 10%)
is extremely unlikely too. You need 3 warlocks and 3+ 40/0/21 mages before its worth it, or 3 warlocks + 1+ fire/frost mage + 1+ 40/0/21 mage. And even 1/1 mage might not cut it depending on the performance of your mages.
2762 DPS (CoS 13%, CoE 13%, WC, Never Going to Happen)
is probably never going to happen
Likewise, 13% COE is like so remote I wouldn't even dare hope it to happen.
I think here are the more realistic scenarios:
13% COS
13% COS + JOW
10% COE
And add possibly moonkin and ret pally (+3% crit) to the mix.
My guild runs with 3 mages 40/0/21 and 1 wc chill mage.
we also run with 3 to 4 locks and 2 sp.
we also run with 1 ele shammy.
we also have a ret pally. (recently added)
My guild runs with 3 mages 40/0/21 and 1 wc chill mage.
we also run with 3 to 4 locks and 2 sp.
we also run with 1 ele shammy.
we also have a ret pally. (recently added)
Mage grp is 3 mages/1 ele shammy and 1 sp.
I guess mages in my guild are very lucky then.
It isn't about how many of class 'x' you can stack in a raid to give some people the best possible numbers, it's about total raid DPS. The problem Manly is getting at is a mage providing WC, and two warlocks providing maledicted CoS / CoE, hardly seems optimal as the people providing these valuable debuffs lose a large amount of personal DPS to do it. That has to be accounted for to truly min/max from a raid perspective.
I do think there are some plausible raid setups with CoE but no CoS, or even *gasp* maledicted CoE but regular CoS with the incinerate buff.
Does anyone remember the shadowpriest.com simulated DPS table that was around late pre-TBC, early TBC? Something like that (providing theorycrafted DPS for casters of all specs at pretty close to top gearing) would really be handy for this kind of discussion and I think Rawr is a good tool for it as it supports multiple classes unlike a lot of spreadsheets. Unfortunately I can't run Rawr (PPC Mac).
It is also about how many of X class you stack. Nakawe's raid is extremely cloth heavy. You're running 10 cloth DPS there, that's two-thirds of the DPS, a huge percentage. 11 DPS are casters, leaves 4 or 5 spots for other (physical) DPS, I can see a point to ditching even CoR. Not many guilds run under 5 physical DPS.
As far as I can see one needs at least a grp of 2*rogue, dps-warr, enh-sham, cat (which can be one of the tanks for most encounters) and ideally a hunter with imp.hunter's mark somewhere else to optimize your dps. Not that raid make-up is particularly relevant to the thread, just to illustrate why there isn't usually space for so much cloth.
It is not convention to run so much cloth, a lot more guilds typically run 2 or perhaps 3 mages and 2 or 3 locks and no more. Same with SP, 3 is the absolute max with 2 being more common and some guilds running 1.
It appears the Darkmoon Card is not showing up under the trinkets to compare. I would assume adding the item in via the Item# will not work due to the funky mechanics of the trinket?
This post is to see how +int, +spirit and +damage gems compare to one another for 2.4's arcane mage. There has been a discussion going on on our guild's class forums and I wanted to see what EJ forum's elite crowd thinks about the conclusions I will list below.
This post might be long but I included every single detail in my calculations.
Ok, here is what I do. Let's say we would like to compare the effects of increases in intellect, spirit and damage (int_inc, spi_inc, damage_inc) .
First I pick the raid buffed values for intellect and spirit (int, spi) and then calculate the base mana regeneration as follows (the formula in 2.4).
base_regen = sqrt(int) * spi / 21.4
1) I calculate spammed AB dps from Rawr (too lazy to account for all raid buffs/debuffs on boss/etc) and multiply it by 1.5 to find avg_ab_dmg. (for my stats, it is roughly equal to 3200)
2) I choose a fight duration, fight_duration. (300 seconds by default)
3) I pick a relative ratio of AB to FB, AB_to_FB_ratio, indicating how many ABs are cast per FB which is going to change from fight to fight and is going to depend on how often you use cycles or pure AB.
4) I assume average cast times of avg_AB_dur = 2 and avg_FB_dur = 2.5 (ignoring lag for the moment and a rough estimate for AB cast time)
5) I calculate the number of ABs and FBs cast in the time with the following formulas.
6) +1 spell damage increases average AB damage by 1.078 (one_dmg_to_AB) and average FB damage by 1.4875 (one_dmg_to_FB). (I calculated these when I was comparing TLC and DMC in a previous EJ post)
7) Finally, I assume that ANY mana contribution from +int and +spi will be used by the LEAST mana efficient spell being 3-debuffed AB with a mana cost of 672, tri_debuff_AB_mana
8 ) Now, I calculate the total damage earned at the end of the fight due to each stat. Let's start with +dmg (damage_inc)
9) For spirit, I take into account 2 effects. The obvious mana regeneration and the small +dmg contribution due to improved spirit. The contribution from the mana regeneration is calculated as follows. Also, let's not forget the kings multiplier (1.1).
The contribution from +dmg from improved spirit is calculated just like the 8th step above.
total_dmg_inc_spi_2 = spi_inc * 0.1 * (one_dmg_to_AB * num_ABs + one_dmg_to_FB * num_FBs)
0.1 multiplier due to improved spirit.
And we just add these 2 effects: total_dmg_inc_spi = total_dmg_inc_spi_1 + total_dmg_inc_spi_2
10) Now, for the intellect, we have 2 major contributions. The obvious increase in mana + evocation and the increase in spell damage due to mind mastery. Also we shouldn't forget the kings (1.1) and the arcane mind (1.15) multipliers to calculate the actual increase in intellect.
int_inc = int_inc * 1.15 * 1.1
The mana regen contribution is calculated just like the spirit.
And the +dmg contribution is calculated by taking into account both mind mastery and the increase in spell critical chance due to increased intellect.
int_mind_mastery_dmg = int_inc * 0.25
int_crit_dmg = int_inc / 80 * 22.1 * 0.8 ( from item budgets, 1 crit ~ 0.8 damage for 40/0/21 and 80 int gives 22.1 crit rating)
int_dmg = int_mind_mastery_dmg + int_crit_dmg
total_dmg_inc_int_2 = int_dmg * (one_dmg_to_AB * num_ABs + one_dmg_to_FB * num_FBs)
We just add these 2 effects again, just like spirit: total_dmg_inc_int = total_dmg_inc_int_1 + total_dmg_inc_int_2
11) Compare the 3 values found from 8-9-10.
So, to sum up, I tried to include every imaginable effect I could. And the only assumption I make is that you will complete the fight with no mana and the extra mana coming from regeneration will be used only by trible debuffed AB spam (think of it as a way to burn that extra mana).
I triple checked all this stuff and yet to find a mistake. I hope I am making a mistake somewhere because the results I found GREATLY favors int and spi when compared to dmg.
For example, for 3200 average AB damage (which is quite possible in a raid scenario) and 720 int and 400 spi, here is what I get for an increase of +1 in each stat (total damage contributed at the end of the fight):
7) Finally, I assume that ANY mana contribution from +int and +spi will be used by the LEAST mana efficient spell being 3-debuffed AB with a mana cost of 672, tri_debuff_AB_mana
I triple checked all this stuff and yet to find a mistake. I hope I am making a mistake somewhere because the results I found GREATLY favors int and spi when compared to dmg.
Your mistake is that you assume that if you gain another 672 mana from spi/int, you gain another 3.2k damage from one AB. That's not the case though. You replace something (a FrB or a rotation) with an AB.
AB is 1.5s, FrB is 2.5s, 2.5/1.5 = 1.66.
So, you can replace one FrB by 1.66 ABs. Calculate the difference in mana cost and in damage.
That's your real manadump => damage conversion.
You used a ~6 DPM conversion. It is much worse though if you redo the maths.
I did something similar a few days ago, and had between 1.5 and 2 DPM conversion,
Your mistake is that you assume that if you gain another 672 mana from spi/int, you gain another 3.2k damage from one AB. That's not the case though. You replace something (a FrB or a rotation) with an AB.
AB is 1.5s, FrB is 2.5s, 2.5/1.5 = 1.66.
So, you can replace one FrB by 1.66 ABs. Calculate the difference in mana cost and in damage.
That's your real manadump => damage conversion.
You used a ~6 DPM conversion. It is much worse though if you redo the maths.
I did something similar a few days ago, and had between 1.5 and 2 DPM conversion,
Ok, so you are basically saying that the mistake with these calculations was to assume a high DPM conversion.
But, isn't 6 DPM the lowest you can get with any spell? Could you please explain how you were able to get 1.5 - 2 DPM values?
Also, even when I assume a 2DPM conversion (i.e. assume my avg_AB_dmg = 672 * 2) here are the figures I get:
Making +12 damage gems equal if not better than +10 int gems and making spirit very much less valuable. But, I don't understand how you can go as low as 2 DPM.
I know this was just covered above, and I've looked over Rawr about 10 times now to make sure I'm not a blind fool, but I believe hit cap is currently bugged.
Talent selected is the built-in 2/48/11 spec.
Under Spell Stats:
Spell Hit Rate: 12.88%
Under buffs:
Inspiring Presence is checked (which should be 1% to hit)
Under Talents:
Elemental Precision: 3 (which should be 3% to hit)
The total hit rate should be 16.88%, or .88% above the hit cap.
Yet when doing the Comparisons: Custom -> Item Budget it list Spell Hit Rating as 760.25 "worth". Which I'm guessing is what .12% of hit would be worth.
I'm guessing the code is off by 1% to hit. I checked to make sure that the checkbox for Inspiring Presence is working, and it is. The value of Hit goes from 760.25 to 5001.625 when toggling the switch off.
Ok, so you are basically saying that the mistake with these calculations was to assume a high DPM conversion.
But, isn't 6 DPM the lowest you can get with any spell? Could you please explain how you were able to get 1.5 - 2 DPM values?
It's kind of what I wrote right there ...
You can replace 1 Frostbolt by 1.66 Arcane Blasts - since either has 2.5s unhasted cast time total. mana_diff = 1.66*mana_3stack_arcane_blast - 1*mana_frostbolt damage_diff = 1.66*damage_arcane_blast - 1*damage_frostbolt
Then damage_diff/mana_diff is the DPM rate at which you can burn mana via AB spam.
Originally Posted by Cryic
Under Spell Stats:
Spell Hit Rate: 12.88%
Yet when doing the Comparisons: Custom -> Item Budget it list Spell Hit Rating as 760.25 "worth". Which I'm guessing is what .12% of hit would be worth.
Spell hit/crit rate in Rawr.mage includes buffs, but not specific talents.
So, your 12.88% hit splits into 8.88% hit on gear, 4% aura/totem.
Fire gets 3% from EP, putting you at 15.88% for fire, 0.12% from cap.
I know this was just covered above, and I've looked over Rawr about 10 times now to make sure I'm not a blind fool, but I believe hit cap is currently bugged.
Talent selected is the built-in 2/48/11 spec.
Under Spell Stats:
Spell Hit Rate: 12.88%
Under buffs:
Inspiring Presence is checked (which should be 1% to hit)
Under Talents:
Elemental Precision: 3 (which should be 3% to hit)
The total hit rate should be 16.88%, or .88% above the hit cap.
Yet when doing the Comparisons: Custom -> Item Budget it list Spell Hit Rating as 760.25 "worth". Which I'm guessing is what .12% of hit would be worth.
I'm guessing the code is off by 1% to hit. I checked to make sure that the checkbox for Inspiring Presence is working, and it is. The value of Hit goes from 760.25 to 5001.625 when toggling the switch off.
Inspiring Presence is included in the Spell Hit Rate since it affects all spells, so total hit rate is actually 15.88%.
It appears the Darkmoon Card is not showing up under the trinkets to compare. I would assume adding the item in via the Item# will not work due to the funky mechanics of the trinket?
You can add it by item id, but it is just modeled as a straight +80 dmg.
03/09/08, 8:09 AM
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