galzohar

Yeah remember the DPM of swapping from spell A to spell B is (A.dps - B.dps)/(A.mana/sec - B.mana/sec) as what actually matters is the difference in DPS VS how much mana it costed you. This also gives you in return how much damage would be gained by regenerating X mana, assuming you're already casting partially spell A and partially spell B and never going completely dry. Of course even a small conversion of mana to extra damage needs serious consideration - think how fire has so much leftover mana you just use non-mana consumeables to turn some mana into damage, which generally gives quite under a 2 DPM conversion, with exact number depending on what consumeables you're swapping and what they're stacked with.

 

◊ Vontre

I believe we determined via some divine rituals in accordance with the irc gods that an optimal clothie setup was now 1 spriest, 1 affliction lock with maledicted CoE and 19 destro, and everything else fire mages/fire locks. The numbers we used to conclude this were very shrewd, and by shrewd I mean we didn't use any numbers at all, but if you think about it there's really no way this wouldn't be the case. Perhaps dump the affliction lock and spriest for more fire mages/locks, but I guess you lose Shadow Embrace then and that's kindof good when the tank is getting squished by a big demony thing in Sunwell. I mustn't dwell in the realm of numbers for much longer, for even posting of this brevity has cut severely into my required daily allotment of Smash Bros. Brawl.

www.magegraf.com

Raiding is full of challenge. Sometimes there is fire. You have to not be in the fire.

"We agree with Communism." - Greg Street 2009

 

Roywyn

Waterbolt should be counted as 3.0s cast time, an Elemental can get off 15 Waterbolts before it expires.
The reason is cast delay which causes breaks between chain casting.

I had checked some logs a while ago and it seemed like 15 Waterbolts per summoned elemental.
Decided to make a definitive test with a shaman (mana spring/tide) and Dr. Boom.

Result was - surprise - 15 casts. 14 hits (2 of which crit) and 1 resists (resists are not registered in DM, you can either trust me or redo the test yourself).
The Elemental died shortly after starting its 15th, was around 0.5 seconds into the cast and had 2 seconds remaining.

The Elemental died shortly after starting its 15th, was around 0.5 seconds into the cast.
It got as low as around 800 mana at the end.

I have ~80 ms ping since I added the registry edit thingy a month or two ago.

 

Myrdinn

Hello guys,

I did look around with the search function but did not find easily an answer.
You are playing with 40/0/21 spec in 2.4, that is beating 2/48/11 fire spec.
Is 2T5 needed for this or is 40/0/21 superior even with better/lower stuff ?

Sorry if it has been clarified somewhere before...

 

jogjog

look at previous pages and at www.magegraf.com

 

Myrdinn

Thanks for your help jogjog...
My understanding so far is 40/0/21 is good with 2T5, 4T6, only.
But without 2T5, 2/48/11 is still the way to go.

I just wanted to be sure, sorry...

 

Genocidal

That pretty much contradicts what Kavan stated a few pages back; where the value of spirit was much more desirable. So what you’re basically saying is that, even with BoK taken into consideration, it’s not recommended to stack spirit gems on blue sockets for the 40/0/21 and that in case such sockets appeared then they should be ignored.

[EDIT] typo

 

jogjog

The interest of gemming 12dmg is also the future, like respecing fire for an event who require fire...

int/spi gems are only viable for pure full arcanes fans like "hey, 48/0/13 forever".

But it's not a very flexible way to gem, full 12 dmg being so good for all spec.

 

Roywyn

The best case for spirit in Rawr that I found was 48/0/13 with 2T5, 4T6, JoW, no CoE, no WC, 4 minute fight, mage armour.

There, +10 int (2653) and +12 (2624) dmg had the same value, +10 spirit (1334) was half as good, +10 haste (1696) and +10 crit (1703) was between those.
A TLC would increase the value of crit, but the update with a proper TLC isn't published yet (I think).

Even without CoE/WC, 40/0/21 would do more damage. The stat rating for that spec would be +10 int = 2712, +12 dmg = 2640, +10 crit = 1998, +10 haste = 1442, +10 spirit = 1240.


While still surprised at the high value of intellect, I have yet to see a setting where spirit gems are decent.

 

Genocidal

So should there be a dmg socket bonus and one blue gem, we can use the intellect with mp5 gem to fill it in. However, if the socket bonus is anything else or if there is more than one blue socket to activate it, there's no point in gemming anything other than intellect and ignoring the bonus for arcane builds. What I find annoying is the fact that mp5 doesn't work well with BoK, unlike spirit, but such is the way of things, I suppose.

Roywyn: yes it surprises me as well.

 

Roywyn

The 2.4 changes made mp5 useless for priests and druids because spirit is just flat out better for them.
I honestly hope that they just give every class 30% spirit regen while casting and remove mp5 when WotLK comes.

 

xiaoxin21

I would think [Fluorescent Tanzanite] may be a better choice?

 

Genocidal

With the 2.4 change that states you can stack more than one of those and the fact that you're willing to hunt in blood Furnace for it? Yes.

 

Andorian

Human mages will have a better spirit rating (10% racial buff). However, I doubt it will make a big difference. I suspect those numbers are for an undead mage, correct?

 

Queuetip

Going back to the topic about Haste proc from Ashtongue trinket, if it gets activated off an instant (Arcane Explosion), the first GCD will be its normal length due to the trinket proccing off the hit instead of the cast. It is pretty trivial for overall damage from an AE spam, but it further shows the disadvantages of the trinket, even after 2.4. I'm liking the idea of haste dynamically changing cast / GCD more and more. It's doubtful Blizzard would even bother with a mechanic like that.

 

Aeryn

What about fights in which you use lots of non-damaging spells? Spellsteal, sheep, blink, decurse, frost/fireward etc. Sure, compared to damaging spells you don't usually cast them that much, but even in basic tank and spank fights, I have Ice Barrier up almost constantly, except when I know there won't be any incoming damage. I also tend to blink fairly often.

As far as theorycrafting goes, Rawr assumes that all mana is used for damaging spells, right? I wonder how int, spirit etc. would fare in these calculations if some of that mana was used differently (read: "lost").

 

Cryic

Question Regarding Rawr:

I do not see the check box for Mana Spring from a shaman. Does the program assume Mana Spring for alliance if the Inspiring Presence is checked?

 

Cryic

Additional Questions about RAWR:

Dicking around with the built in 40/0/21 Arcane spec and I'm a bit confused by the spell cycle chosen. Using the fairly complicated ABFrB3FrBSC rotation nets around 2,146 dps. When I switch off AB Cycles, and leave on Smart Optimization it results in 1,1776 dps and a large chunk of time spent wanding (109secs). Only when turning off Smart Optimization do I get what I was expecting, a bit less AB spam (20 seconds less), but no wanding and using FrB which results in 2,130 dps.

I guess what I'm getting at is that it's a bit counter-intuitive to turn off something listed as smart optimization to get a 400 dps increase

Maybe for the next build put a mouse over tip for the Smart Optimization tool tip?

On a side note: Is this thread the best spot to post these questions about RAWR and TC? Maybe create a new thread about RAWR Mage TC? Or should we just PM Kavan if we think we have found a bug? The only reason I continue to post in this thread is that others might have the same questions or have already figured out the answer and save Kavan a bit of time and trouble.

Maybe we could start up a wowwiki section devoted to RAWR.Mage?

 

• Astrylian

It's just "Rawr", not "RAWR". Wherever you want to post feedback, is probably fine. Here for anything specific to Rawr.Mage, or the Rawr Model Development thread if it appears to be a general Rawr bug. Another option that we all read alot is our CodePlex site, Rawr - Home, where you can post discussions, feature requests, bug reports, etc.

 

Duravi

I have a question about the [Nightfall] axe. Pre-BC it was something we use for a decent amount of fights (C'thun and Loatheb come to mind) but I havent seen much discussion on it lately. Is this something still worth using or has the change of raid size from 40 to 25 made that shaman/warrior's dps loss from using it too great?

 

Zure

http://elitistjerks.com/f40/t13013-n...l_tbc_raiding/
Retro weapons - Nightfall

Those are the first two hits that come up if you simply enter the word "nightfall" into the search box at the top of every page on this site.

 

Sinless

Yes, my mistake was comparing the extra damage generated by the extra mana from intellect and spirit to no damage, whereas I was supposed to compare it to cycle damage. When I did that, I came to the same conclusion as Kavan and Rawr. 1 intellect is about 1.2+ damage making +10 intellect gems a very good replacement for yellow sockets. But I wouldn't go out my way to replace enchants such as +40 spell damage to weapon with +30 intellect.

Where does haste fit in these equations? Lhivera's calculator puts 1 haste at 1.16 damage which makes it seem pretty valuable.

 

Duravi

The threads you linked to are full of speculation and no definite numbers. The only numbers I see are for gorefiend and the guy comes to the conclusion he should be using it where as almost all the speculators say they don't use it. Even the speculator's who do come from posts made a very long time ago, when raid dps was lower and before many class changes in recent patches. So yes I already searched for it and learned almost nothing. Also I'm asking if people are using someone with this NOW for fights, preferably people that have been killing illidan for awhile. Those threads are pretty useless if you took a look at them.

 

Kavan

That is the assumption yes. You can simulate the effect you want by lowering sh priest regen/entering negative regen and using a dps time lower than 100%.

It will be included in next build.

Well I guess Smart Optimization is not that smart I did recently add Frostbolt to be used with arcane builds when optimization is on so this wouldn't happen, but your point still stands. The reason why I added that option is that when you have a lot of cooldown effects for stacking and a lot of different spell options the number of combinations that are possible is enormous. If you have 2 on use trinkets, deep fire build with molten fury, icy veins, heroism, destro pots, flame caps, drums that's a lot of combinations. In order to make the problem more tractable I disable some spells that based on testing were never part of a solution, for example AB cycles in fire builds or destro pots in arcane builds.

If you find that in normal situations some options are left out then let me know and I'll fix it.

 

Prod

Jewelcrafting and Tailoring items now require profession skill to wear.

The question is then, what 2 professions maximize dps in 2.4 when combined with Sunwell gear
Enchanting, Tailoring, Jewelcrafting, Leatherworking for drums.

I'll be looking at with and without ele shamans, personally. And without Alliance +hit buff.