I think he means this effect vibrant blood, which is supposedly one of the four possible effects of the mad alchemist potion (and the only one which has any positive effect for casters at all).
Clearly the downside outweighs the positive effect for fireball spam, as he said.
From what Blizzard posted about the Mad Alchemist's Potion (MAP) the effect will be a random elixir buff and the elixir buffs will match the ones that are currently in the game. It won't overwrite existing flask buffs though (not sure about other elixirs though). From what they seem to be saying it could be any elixir in the game, from Adepts to Draenic Wisdom to Fel Strength to Major Defense etc. but that if you already have an elixir on then it just acts as a rejuv pot.
IF that is what it actually does it should be a lot of fun in the BGs and when doing trash but won't really have any real affect on Boss fights or anything where you will want specific alchemic buffs in place.
You are referring to the vibrant/black/glowing blood debuffs linked on mmo-champion, that are suspected to be Mad Alchemist's Potion side buffs?
Those are debuffs that are already in the game, cast by mobs in Zangarmarsh. I highly doubt they will become those potion side effects too.
Edit: Mmo-champion states that that debuff isn't even confirmed. And someone in the 2.3 thread said they used 23 potion and had no effect yet. No one else linked anything yet with that potion.
And I'm sure they would post a screenshot of something new.
It just makes no sense whatsoever that someone now randomly claims that some debuffs that have existed since beta are now the potion side effects.
My personal guess is that it's just not in yet.
Also, those are magic debuffs. They'd be removed faster than you can blink in a proper group/raid by your local cleansebots.
Brings up nice memories on Arcane Blast when it was dispellable
Yes, it's just what mmo-champion has reported so far. I agree that there's a rather small chance that this is the actual buff...since this is what Drysc has to say.
"It's a trainable alchemist-only rejuvenation potion (replenish health/mana) and will also give a random elixir buff. It won't replace existing elixir buffs though; if you already have one on. "
It is possible that these 4 buffs are considered elixir buffs...and that there simply isn't a way for alchemists to make an elixir to give the buff.
The math behind those numbers
Fireball w/o Buff (this is coming directly from your spreadsheet vontre)
Average Damage: 5617.93
Cast Time 2 (capped): 2.96
DPS: 5617.93 / 2.96 = 1897.9
We are on game mechanics forum, after all. And my point is that you are probably underestimate FN+CoC pure damage potential, not that it is better for any situation. Surely a mage must use his brain and choose appropriate spells for an encounter. But numbers (and my personal experience, as well as experience of some other mages) says that "appropriate"!="2xAE instead of FN+CoC every time".
Yeah it is a game mechanics forum, and Frost Nova breaking a lot and Cone of Cold having limited targettability are important game mechanics.
Why your calculated damage for CoC on frozen targets is so low? CoC with Shatter, WC and 25% base crit will get 77% crit chance after FN (25% base + 50% shatter + 2% WC). So, average damage is 651*1.77=1152, not 1035, for total 1514 with FN. And yes, CoC+AE is even better scenario if you don't have Improved CoC. Of course, without Improved CoC profit is small, and also AE for typical 10/51 build can have higher hit chance if mage is not hit capped. It was just a side note.
I guess I made a typo when doing the CoC calculation, I am not sure how I did that. I'm not even sure what number results in the 1035 I got. Regardless, the theoretical damage advantage of FN + CoC is too small compared to the reality of missed targets and broken Frost Novas.
It is usually easy to jump around and spam AE, while CoC requires right positioning, right timing and, sometimes, good kiting. But ability to use all class and personal skills at maximum potential is the key for really good frost mage, imo.
Any time spent jumping around and maneuvering to get into position for FN +CoC is either lost DPS time or requiring you to cast AE. And again we come back to the point where if you FN late you may kill people and if you FN + CoC early then you pull aggro off the tanks.
I think this subject has been beaten into the ground and I'm going to let it go now.
I would just like to add that during the BC beta, I posted on the Beta UI forums and asked Slouken if Blizzard would ever implement even a rudimentary single tier of spell queueing. He told me it was not planned at the moment and did not see any work like that happening for at least the next year. So, while I was disappointed at the time I see this change minor as it is, as a step in the right direction. I think blizzard are more worried about spell queueing since it will give players another thing to complain about: ie: melee will argue that casters have an inherent advantage in that situation since it is much harder to queue instant abilities.
I'm hopeful still but not overly optimistic simply due to the reasons I stated above, rogues and to some extent hunters would be peeved since they base so much on GCD/Shot times/Energy ticks.
On a side note, wouldn't the new chaotic meta put 33/28 closer to 10/48/3 dps? Enough to put it over?
I am thinking about 34/24/3 (+hit over firedamage due to misses not critting) and having around 43% critchance on fireball raidbuffed with the chaotic meta. With the ashtongue trinket and T5 setbonus (I don't have access to full T6 for a while) I believe it can get some amazing ignites
I haven't seen any spreadsheet supporting the CSD yet, so I can't play around with it in theory, but it might be interesting.
I am thinking about 34/24/3 (+hit over firedamage due to misses not critting) and having around 43% critchance on fireball raidbuffed with the chaotic meta. With the ashtongue trinket and T5 setbonus (I don't have access to full T6 for a while) I believe it can get some amazing ignites
I haven't seen any spreadsheet supporting the CSD yet, so I can't play around with it in theory, but it might be interesting.
34/24/3 vs. 33/28/0
You gain 3% hit (ElePre), 1% crit (ArcPot), 3.3% mana saving (should be a non-issue), and lose 7% raw damage (PWF, FirPow).
Not worth it, seeing that you can get hit-capped from other items while losing the equivalent of maybe 1-2% crit.
As for the numbers for Fireball spam in optimised gear (calculations without a meta gem):
33/28/0 with 1.3% miss: 1735 DPS (Cowl of the Illidari Highlord, Ring of Captured Storms)
10/48/3 with 0.6% miss (capped at 1% miss): 1824 DPS (Leggings of Channeled Elements)
Even for 33/28/0, 1 spell crit rating is only ~0.89 spell damage, compared to ~0.75 for 10/48/3.
So, trying to stack crit wont get you much further either.
And even though the CSD meta (if it works like the bugged resilience before) favours 33/28/0 over 10/48/3, it won't be able to make up for an 89 DPS difference.
Yes, you'll get some amazing ignites. Underbog Colossi will be your best friends and worst foes. But that's it already.
APPoMPyro is fun, but Deep Fire is better for straight nuking.
On a lighter note, the other day I read some WoW US forum poster state some parsings for full frost, he claimed:
1) For a month of frost raiding, at 128 hit rating (exactly 5% short of boss cap) he recorded 1% resist on bosses.
2) When he reduced hit to 120 due to item change, for a few weeks the resist went to 1.5%.
3) When he increased to 158hit for a further week it stayed on 1%.
Now by no means am I saying this is either true, or fact. The manner the post was written was professional and logical prompting me to think the poster genuinely believed it. Possible explanations I offer is the intrinsic 5% partial resist bosses have is being mitigated by frost, not to 0% but to no resist due to binary nature, OR his damage meter is recording only white or yellow resists as resist and thus explaining the 5%.
Does anyone else have any feedback on what's what with frost hitrate? I haven't raided enough with it and even when I did I was on over 158of the supposedly needed 164hit. If this data is indeed true it would mean only bosses would report 1% resist while trash would go up to 6% for lvl 73 trash thus making my old results poluted.
Has anyone had only 1% resist on bosses with upwards of 128hit but less than 164? Or have I been led up the garden path?
and having around 43% critchance on fireball raidbuffed
this bit puzzled me for a bit. I am was under the impression that critcap existed of 40%. If you get a higher critchance then that (not counting things like combustion, passive crit alone) your crits would hit for less so you would end up doing the same amount of damage as you would with 40% crit.
I have had this idea hanging in the back of my head for a long time now and I am pretty sure I originally picked it up from these forums. But when I tried looking it up I realized I can't find anything about it all on these forums. Neither the working theorycraft thread or any of the mage threads mentions it.
Is this crit cap real? Is it a mechanism that was removed sometime in the past? Or did it never exist except in my imagination? I hope anybody can give me the answer, since I am confused about it.
There is no such crit cap. Loatheb demonstrated that well where with the onyxia buff and the spore buff you could get to over 95% crit rate. At that point the limit of your crit was your chance to hit... If you were to have a 100% crit rate and a 1% chance to miss then your crit rate would effectively be 99%
On a lighter note, the other day I read some WoW US forum poster state some parsings for full frost, he claimed:
1) For a month of frost raiding, at 128 hit rating (exactly 5% short of boss cap) he recorded 1% resist on bosses.
2) When he reduced hit to 120 due to item change, for a few weeks the resist went to 1.5%.
3) When he increased to 158hit for a further week it stayed on 1%.
Now by no means am I saying this is either true, or fact. The manner the post was written was professional and logical prompting me to think the poster genuinely believed it. Possible explanations I offer is the intrinsic 5% partial resist bosses have is being mitigated by frost, not to 0% but to no resist due to binary nature, OR his damage meter is recording only white or yellow resists as resist and thus explaining the 5%.
Does anyone else have any feedback on what's what with frost hitrate? I haven't raided enough with it and even when I did I was on over 158of the supposedly needed 164hit. If this data is indeed true it would mean only bosses would report 1% resist while trash would go up to 6% for lvl 73 trash thus making my old results poluted.
Has anyone had only 1% resist on bosses with upwards of 128hit but less than 164? Or have I been led up the garden path?
I noticed my misses often being rather low for a while now, usually somewhere between 1 and 1.5%, but it could still be only coincidence.
In case you want to analyze it a bit, i have two WWS parses for you at hand, and the amount of hitrating i was using back then (it's a while ago, but i reproduced my gear from our dkp-table):
Frosty: Thanks man, that's a wealth of data you've got there.
It'll take a while to sieve through all this, but from first sight things seem to be in order. If it so happens that on 73 non-boss mobs 164 is needed to cap, then the .4% miss rate in excess of the 1% that's expected vs. bosses should explain this; there's a lot of trash before the bosses.
I take it you weren't teamed with a ToW shaman? ToW certainly isn't showing up on your WWS but I'm not 100% it does, so asking just in case.
If indeed it does transpire frost vs bosses only needs 128hit then we're on the verge of discovery: Frost will be 40item budget ahead of fire come 2.3... While I doubt that'll be enough to push it ahead it will (a) improve the value of frost for lesser-geared mages (b) make the frost/fire gap smaller.
I take it you weren't teamed with a ToW shaman? ToW certainly isn't showing up on your WWS but I'm not 100% it does, so asking just in case.
I'm very sure i hadn't ToW.
I took a closer look at the parses in the meantime, and it didn't seem to be the trash, that lowered the resist percentages: i had 1.2% and 1.3% resists on trash - in the 2nd raid, the resists there were even higher than those during the bossfights!
I see if i find more parses later and will link them here.
I noticed my misses often being rather low for a while now, usually somewhere between 1 and 1.5%, but it could still be only coincidence.
In case you want to analyze it a bit, i have two WWS parses for you at hand, and the amount of hitrating i was using back then (it's a while ago, but i reproduced my gear from our dkp-table):
Note, that these numbers include trash, but feel free to dig through every single bossfight
Oke, I looked through both your WWS stats, counted the frostbolts you did from the fights that dont have adds (so excluded illidan, hydross, lurker, fathom lord, tidewalker and vashj). On anetheron and A'lar you did not miss and I was able to determine how many hits you did on adds, so I counted the other fb from those fights as well.
In the end you have done 698 casts on boss lvl mobs, 8 of those missed, leaving you with 690 hits (crits included). If your hit chance was 97,5 % the probablity of 8 misses or less out of 698 casts is 0.91% (as can be calculated using the binomcdf function). This is outside of the 95% chance interval, so I would say there is something going on.
The hit chance I used is also higher then the actual hitchance for half of the data, if I take a hitchance of 97,3% (just a guess, didn't actually bother to calculate this) the probability is 0.39%, which is even outside of the 99% chance interval
Perhaps elemental precision is bugged for frost spec ?
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Perhaps elemental precision is bugged for frost spec ?
Or both.. it used to be 6% hit instead of 3%. If EP was bugged the effective hit cap would be 126.. which is in line with the data in the thread. Hmmm...
Edit: Someone who's not at work should check the mana cost of a frost spell and see if elemental prec. is affecting it. Not the tooltip, but precise amount of mana spent.
Or both.. it used to be 6% hit instead of 3%. If EP was bugged the effective hit cap would be 126.. which is in line with the data in the thread. Hmmm...
Edit: Someone who's not at work should check the mana cost of a frost spell and see if elemental prec. is affecting it. Not the tooltip, but precise amount of mana spent.
Well exactly, that is what I meant. Maybe elemental precision works as a 6% like it used to, but just for frost spec. And yes that is precisely why I mentioned it since the numbers would get close.
theory #2: draenais in group
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Frostbolts are all against Archimonde, I didn't have elemental precision, and with full pvp gear I believe I was running a muscular 38 hit rating. For comparisons. A little over 100 frostbolt hits, 16.8% miss chance. Guess I don't have a large enough sample to contribute anything.
Edit: Someone who's not at work should check the mana cost of a frost spell and see if elemental prec. is affecting it. Not the tooltip, but precise amount of mana spent.
frostbolt rank 13 is 320 mana with elemental prec, which matches with 0.97*330.
Originally Posted by manly
theory #2: draenais in group
frosty is an undead, so being in a group with a draenei is quite unlikely
Is not the Draenai aura simply +hit to group members? I'll be honest, I've never played one in a group.
Inspiring Presence - Spells - World of Warcraft
The aura doesn't show up on the draenei's buff list, but its there. And to the best of my memory grouping with a draenei shaman and mage last night showed no stacking auras on my buffs.
For those who can't get enough data i went through all our guilds WWS parses again and found a few more. I also made up my mind about what gear i used back then (the hitchance i posted in the post above was a bit off: instead of 140 and 146 it was actually 141 and 149).
I used SR gear always on Mother, often on Azgalor and sometimes on Kazrogal, which means -23 hitchance (no Belt of Blasting) on numbers 03+.
No. 1 and 2 looks strange, but i'm 100% sure i used that exact hitchance, just b/c i know what items i had back then, and i know which trinkets i used from the logs. What i changed between 1/2 and 3 was Belt of Blasting for Girdle of Ruination and Quagmires Eye for Nelth Tear. I could have been just lucky, but maybe the Tear is bugged, you never know
And 07 looks funny at first glance when the resists go up to an alltime high after i broke the cap. But a good part of that is Rage Winterchill with his high frost resistance, that made him resist >10% of my frostbolts.
On Hydross i might have switched in 2*T5 and losing some spellhit in the progress. Same on RoS where i also add 2*T4 using even more spellhit. There is also a chance that i switched to a good amount of PVP gear on Morogrim and Astromancer, losing a lot +hit too. So examining those bossfights might not be a good idea.
It would be funny that the EP talent gave 6% to frost talents all this time, because "serious" players that really care about damage wouldn't play with such low hit to begin with.
Rage does have high Frost Resist, similar to how Supremous has high Fire resist.
ran through 04,05 and 06 (since they all have the same spellhit). Kicked out each and every fight that might have some problem.
- Kael, Akama, A'lar, Illidan and Solarian all have low levels adds in the fight.
- SR gear is used for Mother, different gear for RoS as well.
The bosses that remain provide 635 casts, of which only 4 misses! At a hitchance of 99% there is a 24% chance of such a luck streak (or better) happening. At a hitchance of 97.2% though there is only a 0.0086% chance of 4 resists or less on so many casts. Maybe I am overlooking something, but it seems pretty conclusive to me.
10/25/07, 1:45 PM
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