I got 40/10/11 as almost 200 more dps fireball filler over frostbolt when winter's chill is NOT up but improved scorch is (and only 30 less dps when winter's chill was up, and that's frostbolt spamming)
39/11/11 is an oddball build i also came up with, basically MM Veins lacks a good spell to presence of mind. I know from PTR experience that there were many times spamming 0.94 second arcane blasts that you just kinda forget. However Pyroblast cast at the tail end of an AP does upwards of double arcane damage (Note: I am factoring in the crit-coefficient, which is leaps and bounds better than when arcane blast crits). That said i'm yet to see anything that models either of these, and have only see losing that point in mind mastery as a ~35 dps loss overall.
Looking to you mage dps modelers to help me out on this one.
Basic T6 geared mage, using no haste gear, gems and super mana pots on CD, molten armor.
Shaman in group for mana spring. Int buff, no wisdom, no spirit buff.
He lasted 4 minutes before he had to Evocate - which pretty much suffices for a 6 minute calculation.
I´m testing it again with a kinda equally geared mage(9% haste) as you are to see if it still works.
As for the Spriest usage, the main idea was to see if a mage needed one to last 6 minutes.
I´d assume with stacking haste gear that it could get a serious problem, but as it seems now it ain´t yet. I rather use a Spriest on a warlock and healers in that regard.
Just to justify, since that statement might taunt someone:
6 min casting as warlock with 0 haste and 0 mana regen would wield a consumption of ~53.000 mana and require 22 LT - thats 33 seconds downtime(which is, rounded down 8% lost DPS time - or with 2k DPS 60.000 damage lost). With, for example 280 haste, we´re going up to 60-65k and even go up in Lifetap downtime by some seconds.
You do realise that giving a warlock a shadow priest to reduce life tap time while forcing your mage to use evocation and to use mana gems/pots during MF/BL/IV/CB/SG is a net DPS loss? Life Tap is more mps than Evocation (also has no cooldown and can be cast while running).
Haste gear does not increase life tap time since haste will reduce the GCD. Your mana consumption will increase by the same rate that your Life Tap GCD will go down.
The difference is quite small if the warlock can't tap on the move, I give you that (using Rawr.mage and Leulier). The added benefit of needed 55 heal/sec less may or maynot be noticable.
In the end, it depends on who your better players are and how you set up your raid with shaman, mana tide/totem of wrath, moonkins to optimise how you make your groups.
Assuming a 350 mp5 shadowpriest, and that life taps give you 1.8k mana each, the shadowpriest will save you 14 life taps. From your numbers, that's about a 5.1% increase in dps.
The mages are losing ~2.5% from using evocation, 3% from using mage armour if needed, and if I remember the numbers correctly off the top of my head, ~2% from using two less flamecaps (maybe higher with cooldown stacking).
With the Sunwell haste gear it will only get worse for mages in this respect, while warlocks will be unaffected due to the gcd changes (although they will require a little more healing). Edit: Now that I think of it, the warlock's initial mana pool will run dry faster, however this is only a small portion of the fight, so the point still stands.
Either I don't get what you're saying, Zinaida, or you're mistaken.
What Roywyn said about haste concerning lifetap is correct and you seem to have not got it: Say you cast 10 bolts and 1 lifetap. Increase gear by 100 haste. You'll still have to do 10 bolts and one tap for the same mana consumption. Back when LT would not become faster due to GCD, yes, the ratio of bolt-to-tap ratio would worsen, but now with GCD affecting LT the ratio is exactly the same as before, meaning Haste is irrelevant to your LT time. Yes you'll tap more times but you'll cast more bolts in the exact same ratio increase.
Don't forget, less lifetapping means more ISB uptime, which helps the sPriest DPS and the warlock DPS. More lifetaps is less shadowbolting, and you can't crit with shadowbolts you aren't casting.
Dauntless: "Incapable of being intimidated or discouraged; fearless"
Either I don't get what you're saying, Zinaida, or you're mistaken.
What Roywyn said about haste concerning lifetap is correct and you seem to have not got it: Say you cast 10 bolts and 1 lifetap. Increase gear by 100 haste. You'll still have to do 10 bolts and one tap for the same mana consumption. Back when LT would not become faster due to GCD, yes, the ratio of bolt-to-tap ratio would worsen, but now with GCD affecting LT the ratio is exactly the same as before, meaning Haste is irrelevant to your LT time. Yes you'll tap more times but you'll cast more bolts in the exact same ratio increase.
I was agreeing with that point, not disputing it. What I added was that the initial mana pool where the warlock is not tapping will be depleted faster with haste. This means they means that they will spend a slightly larger proportion of the fight doing a "shadowbolt-lifetap" rotation, which only begins once the initial mana pool is depleted.
Don't forget, less lifetapping means more ISB uptime, which helps the sPriest DPS and the warlock DPS. More lifetaps is less shadowbolting, and you can't crit with shadowbolts you aren't casting.
Good point. At least, for a high-crit warlock who is adding more ISB than he consumes. The effect seems rather small to me.
Toying with Leulier's, it would increase ISB uptime by 0.32%, adding roughly 7 DPS at 11k shadow DPS.
Does that seem in line with generally accepted warlock figures? (Not sure if I got that right in the sheet.)
Edit: Taken 11k shadow DPS as extreme value to get an idea. We are a bit caster heavy though (3-5 warlocks, 1-3 shadow priests).
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Thanks for that. I went and forced one of my mages to a little testing today.
Basic T6 geared mage, using no haste gear, gems and super mana pots on CD, molten armor.
Shaman in group for mana spring. Int buff, no wisdom, no spirit buff.
He lasted 4 minutes before he had to Evocate - which pretty much suffices for a 6 minute calculation.
I´m testing it again with a kinda equally geared mage(9% haste) as you are to see if it still works.
As for the Spriest usage, the main idea was to see if a mage needed one to last 6 minutes.
I´d assume with stacking haste gear that it could get a serious problem, but as it seems now it ain´t yet.
I rather use a Spriest on a warlock and healers in that regard.
Just to justify, since that statement might taunt someone:
6 min casting as warlock with 0 haste and 0 mana regen would wield a consumption of ~53.000 mana and require 22 LT - thats 33 seconds downtime(which is, rounded down 8% lost DPS time - or with 2k DPS 60.000 damage lost).
With, for example 280 haste, we´re going up to 60-65k and even go up in Lifetap downtime by some seconds.
Kudos again for clarifying.
Alternatively your comparison could have a warlock could use super mana pots on c/d in a group with a shaman and yes a mage using mana pots, gems, and evocation, mage armour, reduces his dps. I'd argue if it makes more sense from a raid dps standpoint to switch shadow priest from mages to warlocks either warlocks are entirely to high dps at a low dpm or mages are entirely to low dps at a high dpm.
With 2-3 shadow priests in a raid even any destruction warlock should put up more ISB than he consumes and possibly even affliction. Increasing mp5 by 350, though, will increase ISB uptime by 0.8% on my spreadsheet, which will then increase raid shadow DPS by 0.16% (with 6 shadow users equivalent to less than .96% due to them doing less average DPS than the destruction warlock). Then the 350 mp5 will be increased by 0.56 mp5 which gives less than 0.1 extra dps on my spreadsheet, not to mention the change to ISB uptime is less than 0.01% (meaning spreadsheet doesn't show any difference at all). Note that I find 350 MP5 quite an over-estimation but taking less would just favor the point I'm trying to make even more.
While looking at those cool synergies is nice and all, the reality is that beyond the direct benefit there mostly aren't any "boomerang" effects that are significant.
As for the mage being able to last without a shadow priests - it's not about being able to last or not. Even if he can last, he will do that much more DPS with that much more MP5. Even if he already has incredible mana and only uses mana pots and gems to last, a SP will more or less cover for gems and potions to grant destruction potions and flame caps according to vontre's sheet give over 3% DPS increase. If it reduces evocation time, or in more extreme cases allow you to not use mage armor, you will gain a lot more than that 3% DPS. The most important thing to remember is that the gains of a mage from a SP depend a lot on his spec (arcane in 2.4 (and 2.3 but 2.3 aracne sucks) will gain lots from a SP) and fight duration (although >5min of mostly nuking will generally still possibly require evocation which makes a SP very valueable). Warlocks' gain from a shadow priest doesn't change nearly as much with different fight durations. The DPS increase on my spreadsheet is 94.68 (5.6%) on a 200s fight and 94.73 (5.8%) on a 600s fight.
As for cooldown pairing, I was suggesting that in most cases it is not worth it to wait on your cooldowns to stack, with a few exceptions, mostly the "IV (or AP) will be up soon enough becuase I didn't use my trinket when it came back up" and more importantly the "I'm only getting 1 more use out of it until the fight is over, might as well use it stacked with other cooldowns (especially molten fury+bloodlust)".
Alternatively your comparison could have a warlock could use super mana pots on c/d in a group with a shaman and yes a mage using mana pots, gems, and evocation, mage armour, reduces his dps. I'd argue if it makes more sense from a raid dps standpoint to switch shadow priest from mages to warlocks either warlocks are entirely to high dps at a low dpm or mages are entirely to low dps at a high dpm.
I think it's obvious that any warlock that's remotely serious about his dps is using Super Mana/Rejuv potions on every cooldown since until that point in time that we can cast without lifetapping destro potions are a lot less of a dps increase.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be able to always have mana if you can heal it back up but the difference between basic raid regen (BoW) and full regen is huge, especially if you can manage to sustain 0 Life Taps for a whole fight which makes LT as undesirable as your own usage of potions.
If you still think LT is the end all be all of infinite mana you should try a warlock on a real boss fight, I know at least 1 mage that stopped whining about our infinite mana after his first "where did my mana go" shock on RoS. We've come to the simple agreement that highest dps gets best group and unless the fight is very taxing on healers they don't get any (except the resto shaman, one of which is pure +heal/+haste and uses every bit of outside regen he can get his hands on as his gear regen approaches 0).
I think it's obvious that any warlock that's remotely serious about his dps is using Super Mana/Rejuv potions on every cooldown since until that point in time that we can cast without lifetapping destro potions are a lot less of a dps increase.
Don't get me wrong, it's nice to be able to always have mana if you can heal it back up but the difference between basic raid regen (BoW) and full regen is huge, especially if you can manage to sustain 0 Life Taps for a whole fight which makes LT as undesirable as your own usage of potions.
If you still think LT is the end all be all of infinite mana you should try a warlock on a real boss fight, I know at least 1 mage that stopped whining about our infinite mana after his first "where did my mana go" shock on RoS. We've come to the simple agreement that highest dps gets best group and unless the fight is very taxing on healers they don't get any (except the resto shaman, one of which is pure +heal/+haste and uses every bit of outside regen he can get his hands on as his gear regen approaches 0).
My point was the post I quoted compared a warlock with 0 mana regen(assume this mean no pots/mana spring) to a mage using pots on c/d with mana spring. The post also didn't show the dps loss from not using destruction pots, flame caps, and lost time for evocation, but focused on the dps loss from LT time.
I have raided occasionaly on my warlcok...LT is infinite mana. Affliction has insane regen is you raid buff your imp and LT with destruction is still unlimited with a bit of healing(some of which you do for yourself). RoS is one instance in which the mechanics of two of the phases make LT non infinite both phases are farily short and you get full mana/health in between them.
Ideally you'd try to setup dps groups. My point was a mage is mana limited a warlock is not(Minus phase 1/2 souls). Your arguement is a class not limited by mana(with imo much more raid utility) is doing so much dps a class limited by mana(with little raid ultility) if that's the case I would say mages eitheir need more raid ultility or hgher dps talents and less mana talents.
My point was the post I quoted compared a warlock with 0 mana regen(assume this mean no pots/mana spring) to a mage using pots on c/d with mana spring. The post also didn't show the dps loss from not using destruction pots, flame caps, and lost time for evocation, but focused on the dps loss from LT time.
I have raided occasionaly on my warlcok...LT is infinite mana. Affliction has insane regen is you raid buff your imp and LT with destruction is still unlimited with a bit of healing(some of which you do for yourself). RoS is one instance in which the mechanics of two of the phases make LT non infinite both phases are farily short and you get full mana/health in between them.
Ideally you'd try to setup dps groups. My point was a mage is mana limited a warlock is not(Minus phase 1/2 souls). Your arguement is a class not limited by mana(with imo much more raid utility) is doing so much dps a class limited by mana(with little raid ultility) if that's the case I would say mages eitheir need more raid ultility or hgher dps talents and less mana talents.
Infinite mana is meaningless in the long run. You only need enough mana to nuke for a given duration of X seconds. I do find it interesting how mages complain about evocating burning dps time while expecting us to lifetap, burning dps time.
IMO, RoS is a fight where your mana situation is a lot more desirable than ours; because your mana pools are larger, you have mana gems, and master of elements. I have to lifetap at least once on RoS p3 because I blow through my initial mana pool so much faster.
Life Tap is more mps than Evocation (also has no cooldown and can be cast while running).
I wouldn't make this a blanket statement; it depends on the amount of shadow spell damage your lock has and the mana pool of the mage in question. Plus, in a 6 min. Brutallus, can't you Icy Veins your Evocate?
My point was that mana is finite for a lock in any fight longer than 1 minute for maximum, after that you lose dps.
A mage is as mana limited as a warlock that refuses to Life Tap. The regen is there you just don't want to use it. You pay in damage boosters if you want to regen, we pay in casting time. Same thing, different means. On this note I do agree mage dps isn't as high as it should but it's close.
Going from spriest + resto shaman + potting to just potting is about same dps loss for a warlock that is for a mage a mage having to gem, mana pot and maybe evo and mage armor. There's no higher need for a shadow priest for mages, just for the highest dps players.
The raid utility and dps ... moot point, you've never had 2 warlocks//40 man raid period so you have no bussiness saying you're in a bad position, when you get to become SS/HS bot outside the instance and CoE/CoR bot inside just outdps-ing the tanks then you can whine, until then mages are competitive and can break 2k dps with ease given group and consumables (same as for warlocks). Affliction is in such a sorry state that it's questionable if it's actually usefull in Sunwell considering the needs.
Life Tap is more mps than Evocation (also has no cooldown and can be cast while running).
Originally Posted by Krazen
I wouldn't make this a blanket statement; it depends on the amount of shadow spell damage your lock has and the mana pool of the mage in question. Plus, in a 6 min. Brutallus, can't you Icy Veins your Evocate?
At the end of Sunwell, a gnome mage with BoK and an Evostick (107 from ZA) maybe able to break 2k Evocation ticks.
I'm currently hovering just between 1850 - 1900 ticks.
2000 mana every 2 seconds is 1500 mana every 1.5s, which requires 1150 shadow damage.
Going with 1250 base shadow damage (T6) and 350 from raid buffs, we're at 1860 life taps. 1/3 more mana/sec than Evocation, roughly.
IV+Evocation isn't as good as it sounds, it prolongs your IV buff by 7 seconds (10s Evo instead of 3s FB).
You'll also have all CDs stacked during Evo, but you can work with that somehow.
You definately can't do it in a 6 minute fight, since you'll use use IV exactly two times. First time will be at the start, second time will be at 20%. Evocation isn't useful at either moment.
You'll use your 2m and 3m CDs at the start (0:30), reuse the 2m CDs at (2:30), and reuse your 2m and 3m CDs at (4:30) when he drops below 20%.
Infinite mana is meaningless in the long run. You only need enough mana to nuke for a given duration of X seconds. I do find it interesting how mages complain about evocating burning dps time while expecting us to lifetap, burning dps time.[...]
Clearly, you haven't dealt with the atrocious mage mana regen on chain pulls. Mage mana regen is excellent for bosses, but for chain pulls, its beyond a nightmare. Even if you do a SCB-swap, pop gem, swap back hex shrunken head in between every pull, and use mana pots on trash, I'm still garanteed to be totally unable to handle any kind of chain pulling irregardless of context.
I get your point that infinite mana is moot, but it definately matters on chain pull. If anything, I maintain that mana mechanics are stupid.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
First of all, thank you to all the great and very informed people here, it has been very valuable in refining my mage.
I have recently switched to using the [Mind Quickening Gem] for the Akama fight with amazing results. With BL, IV, and the MQG my fireball casting time gets pushed to 1.5 second cast.
I wanted to model at what length of fight does the MQG, presuming being used during molten fury range, gets beat by a multi-use trinket like the Icon. For instance: does the Icon beat the MQG at two uses, three uses, etc.
At the end of Sunwell, a gnome mage with BoK and an Evostick (107 from ZA) maybe able to break 2k Evocation ticks.
I'm currently hovering just between 1850 - 1900 ticks.
2000 mana every 2 seconds is 1500 mana every 1.5s, which requires 1150 shadow damage.
Going with 1250 base shadow damage (T6) and 350 from raid buffs, we're at 1860 life taps. 1/3 more mana/sec than Evocation, roughly.
IV+Evocation isn't as good as it sounds, it prolongs your IV buff by 7 seconds (10s Evo instead of 3s FB).
You'll also have all CDs stacked during Evo, but you can work with that somehow.
You definately can't do it in a 6 minute fight, since you'll use use IV exactly two times. First time will be at the start, second time will be at 20%. Evocation isn't useful at either moment.
You'll use your 2m and 3m CDs at the start (0:30), reuse the 2m CDs at (2:30), and reuse your 2m and 3m CDs at (4:30) when he drops below 20%.
What happens if you change this to using both at the 1:00 mark (thus Evocating at 1:19), the 2m CDs at the 3:00 mark, and both again at the 5:00 mark?
My response was to post #3549 reread the full post. The comparison had several errors.
-gems and super mana pots on CD(with value for dps loss due to flame caps)
-no dps loss from evocation
-Shaman in group for mana spring for the mage
-warlock with 0 haste and 0 mana regen(I assume this means no shaman and no mana pot)
I don't mind the comparison I'm just point out the implications of it and that if one is made it should be done correctly. Someone else posted 3% diff for dest pots/flame caps but a 5.6% difference for warlocks(unsure if this assumes mana pots/spring for the warlock) obvious as the fight goes longer lost time due to evocation then the change from molten to mage(3%).
I know their is loss dps to LT, and in several fights infinite mana isn't a factor(The mechanic is still there it is still infinite)
Mages may be slighty better off for RoS mana mechanics, but really focusing on one fight with odd mechanics........I mean honestly how many fights are mage unfriendly???
People forget pre bc 1. There where/still are fire immune resist bosses in raiding and no shadow immune 2. In Naxx(where most people focus) there where fights that favored fire 3. The ignite roll was only assigned to one mage his dps was unrealistically high while the others where much lower comparing that mage to another dps class was flawed. 4. There where other spare/filler dps classes besides mages.
Currently 1 . Ignite is no more 2. An additional shadow damage class is in most all raids making you want at least 3 warlock as long as they have reasonable dps output 3. 25 man raids don't have a whole lot of spare dps slots
I see affliction similar to a survival hunter it's a spec for raid benefit not for personal dps.
It's no so much warlock v mage as it is a mage is a pure dps calls with almost no really useful raid utility/buffs our utility/hybrid abilities is simliar to that of a rogue but our dps potential is far below. You can make similiar arguments for say a if a BM hunter has higher or equal dps output then a mage or to a lesser extent a dps warrior. Also consider many fight in BT/HY are fairly shor and icy vein use and c/d stacking(caps, destruct, trinkets) makes mages dps higher then it would be for say a longer fight. Currently with WWS and WWS scoreboard you can get a relative idea of class performance at optimal levels.
[Mind Quickening Gem] could be interesting especially for short fights unsure what the infliction point would be. I think it's roughly 20% haste at level 70 a normal trinket probably gives 3% maybe so I'd say around 6 times the duration or under 2mins. Not many fights go under that amount of time.
I think we all agree less than 3 warlocks in a raid is compeltely silly while there is no minimum requirement on mages. The "warlock vs mage" argument is only more relevent for party setups than for raid composition, although if you do find that warlocks hand down beat mages in all situations there's little reason to bring mages (as in, only reasons being sheeping requirements and sheer attendance/availability).
Affliction warlocks are nothing like survival hunters - survival hunters are a matter of "will EW beat out the DPS loss?" while affliction is "hey the tank just survived with 3% HP before the heal landed, we win" instead of "crap another tank death wipe" - the DPS cost is nothing for what you're gaining in terms of making fights easier at least in my experience as both a DPSer and a healer.
When it comes to mana buffing, remember mana is as good as the DPS you could gain by not needing to regen that mana for yourself. The DPS a warlock would gain is quite constant on different fight durations while a mage would gain very different amounts of DPS on different fights. The one that actually benefits more depends on what mana regen the mage can drop for more DPS - if he can drop mage armor and/or evocation he'll most likely benefit more, while if he'll only be able to drop a mana potion or 2 the warlock will benefit more. Anything in between requires more accurate calculations not to mention the actual warlock VS mage DPS. Note that on some fights warlocks can tap on the move possibly wasting mana regen - every 1.5s you spend moving and not LTing because your mana is full(while being able to LT from a survivability standpoint) is a major waste of mana - 2000 mana the mage could've had (or 1-3k extra damage done).
Warlocks who aren't mana potting are just as bad as mages doing the same. In such a case probably give the shadow priest to the mages as you're trying to be cheap and cheap mages will go oom while cheap warlocks will lifetap more. This isn't relevent for any fights that are any kind of a challenge, though, as everyone should be using potions on every cooldown.
Mind quickenning gem was already quite subpar in long-term-dps at level 60, so I would doubt there's any point to keep it at 70.
What happens if you change this to using both at the 1:00 mark (thus Evocating at 1:19), the 2m CDs at the 3:00 mark, and both again at the 5:00 mark?
I'm guessing at the 1:19min mark you won't need a full evocate additionally it depends on how accurate you could predict the fight duration as losing a c/d if the fight goes quickly(4min) or running out of mana if the fight goes long(6-9mins). It'd still be roughly a 20% increase mps at the loss of dps which would be less mps then LT. You also have to consider that using iv evocate at that time may affect the number of mana gems, pots you'd use for the fight.
Affliction warlocks are nothing like survival hunters - survival hunters are a matter of "will EW beat out the DPS loss?" while affliction is "hey the tank just survived with 3% HP before the heal landed, we win" instead of "crap another tank death wipe" - the DPS cost is nothing for what you're gaining in terms of making fights easier at least in my experience as both a DPSer and a healer.
.
That's basically my point affliction will be a viable spec even if the personal dps suffers due to greater raid benefit. I'd say you can look over WWS and WWS scoreboard and draw your own conclusions about mage dps.
What happens if you change this to using both at the 1:00 mark (thus Evocating at 1:19), the 2m CDs at the 3:00 mark, and both again at the 5:00 mark?
Then I use Evocation while having Flame Caps up.
And that means I use trinket 1 at 1:00, Evo at 1:19 (until 1:29), and trinket 2 at 1:30. That mean I'll have to delay Heroism by 10 second to fit both trinkets (20s+20s) into it.
Hero+CDs+trinket1 at 5:10, trinket2 at 5:30, end T2 and heroism at 5:50.
If you finish the boss 15 seconds before the enrage timer, a lot of your cooldowns were wasted.
You gain another 7 seconds of 20% haste at the cost of losing 10 seconds of Flame Caps and a horrible Evocation timing.
I'm not sure where you're going at, but using Evocation 1/4 into a fight that is mana heavy towards it's end (Heroism, and 2 out of 3 haste trinket/drum uses after Evocation) doesn't seem possible to me.
03/19/08, 5:02 AM
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