1- stack up AB to 3 marks. you can either do this by casting {AB, AB, AB} (or 4, depending on context), or do {AB, frostbolt, AB, frostbolt, AB} (edit: or debatably, {AB, AB, frostbolt, AB} since the 2nd AB is cheap enough that you can ignore the cost)
2- once you have 3 marks, oddly enough, never let it fall off.
3- spam AB when mana allows, if you need to stagger mana consumption, cast frostbolt.
heres the part thats currently debatable and not backed by TC:
--------------------
-> when using cooldowns (bloodlust or IV), depending on how much haste you have, cast frostbolt or AB. The simple version of it is that if you can cast faster than 1s, then switch from AB to frostbolt spam to avoid going sub 1s GCD. bloodlust + IV will put you under, so possibly consider pure frostbolt spam ?
If you have, somehow, just IV up (which should not happen with 40/0/21, you should always double IV during lust, but well you get the idea), then you need 240 (? needs to resolve '1 = 1.5 / (1 + x)') spell haste to get 1s AB. Likewise, you need to know how much haste caps for only bloodlust up if you want to get more technical, but the same principle applies : if your cast goes below 1s GCD, switch spell.
-> another loophole that TC has not checked is whether or not you should, intentionally, not stack bloodlust with IV (!!!) for the express purpose of cramming more AB during bloodlust/AP, which is double good since that is an actual DPM gain. Does the cost outweight the benefit? Hard to say. I have a vague idea of the answer, but its nothing more than a gut feeling as far as I'm concerned.
-------------
Another contingency point
40/10/11 (or even 39/11/11) -- as pointed out by Searix
I haven't personally checked the math for the build, but it does strikes me as making sense, with the one conterintuitive notice that the builds seems senseless upon first sight. Can the loss of an extra icy veins (arguably a bit minor-ish given lack of cooldown stacking since you stack all on your first IV) coupled with the loss of 'deep frost' tree synergy be outdone by the base fireball dps (+ scorch up) ? I think the idea has serious merits, as long as everyone understands that you end up relying more on your raid force to succeed. As long as you understand that the build only works if someone else puts up scorch, and that you (arguably?) get COE too. This means ultimately better DPM -> more dps.
Last edited by manly : 03/25/08 at 4:32 PM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
try this:
If you have, somehow, just IV up (which should not happen with 40/0/21, you should always double IV during lust, but well you get the idea), then you need 240 (? needs to resolve '1 = 1.5 / (1 + x)') spell haste to get 1s AB. Likewise, you need to know how much haste caps for only bloodlust up if you want to get more technical, but the same principle applies : if your cast goes below 1s GCD, switch spell.
I imagine in a typical fight over, say, 4 min, you would have IV available twice. So you could start with an AP/IV/AB spam and have both AP and IV up at the end for a heroism/IV/FB spam.
I'll have to play with it a bit to get a feel of mana consumption rates.
That's grossly inefficient.
Always AP during bloodlust, not during IV. The whole point of the section I wrote 'currently not backed by TC' is that I have not went through the math behind it, but I do have a good gut feeling of what to expect. The reason for this is that AP/AB spam is a DPM gain. You want to gain as much DPM as possible, so you stack with the best haste modifier: ie; bloodlust, not IV. IV/frostbolt spam is just incidental to that previous fact, and the counterbalance to the massive 'mana burn' of the AB spam.
Your goal is to avoid frostbolting like the plague. However, if your AB run below 1s, then try and avoid AB and go for frostbolt. However, AP increases AB DPM, which is why I proposed the 'intentional unstack of IV / bloodlust' so that you can spam AB during both bloodlust and IV.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
40 / 21 falls behind Deep fire at the very end, but until then, it's extremely competitive, if not better (assuming the shit doesnt hit the fan).
I usually raid as Deep fire, mainly because I hate the thought of chain chugging mana pots to do decent dps on semi farm mobs, so please don't take this as an Arcane Zealot post I like all specs
Using Lhivera calc assuming I'm not messing anything up I get roughtly
dps dpm
1,604.0 Arc Blast x3/Frostbolt x3 w/AP+IV avg'd 15.38
1732?? (X1.08? for winters chill and mal) 16?
I used molten, consumables t5 2 piece for 40/21 and 4 piece t6 for fire iv. Also arcane/frost was left at 164 hit, but given an extra 100 spell damage(assumed to gain from gear while magically maintaining hit rating an impossible scenario), no haste values where used as this would clearly be more positive for deep fire.
There doesn't appear to be an option to have another mage doing wc or to separte mal from coe/cos, also doesn't have a way to model for ab spam to end at zero mana.
This provides a bit different picture as you don't do more dps with 40/21 while your rawr assumptions(not entirely sure stats you used) yield more dps before a deep frost mage over fire. I'll mess around with Vontre's spreadsheet and rawr and see what I come up with there.
Lhivera is using a 3xAB 3xFB rotation, rather than the "rotation-less" rotation that Manly was talking about.
The most annoying thing about the 40/0/21 spec is that is extremely hard to model. Magegraf shows its work, at least, but some of the spell sequences don't make intuitive sense. AB drops off a lot and has to be restacked, without even working in the 8 second timer.
That's grossly inefficient.
Always AP during bloodlust, not during IV. The whole point of the section I wrote 'currently not backed by TC' is that I have not went through the math behind it, but I do have a good gut feeling of what to expect. The reason for this is that AP/AB spam is a DPM gain. You want to gain as much DPM as possible, so you stack with the best haste modifier: ie; bloodlust, not IV. IV/frostbolt spam is just incidental to that previous fact, and the counterbalance to the massive 'mana burn' of the AB spam.
Your goal is to avoid frostbolting like the plague. However, if your AB run below 1s, then try and avoid AB and go for frostbolt. However, AP increases AB DPM, which is why I proposed the 'intentional unstack of IV / bloodlust' so that you can spam AB during both bloodlust and IV.
Fair enough. Than IV-AP-AB spam at the start, AB/FB rotations in the middle depending on mana availability, and IV-AP-Bloodlust-AB spam at the end -if- it doesn't bring AB below 1.0 cast time, otherwise ditch the IVs at the end and use them earlier.
Or are you suggesting that AP should only be used once during the fight due to the mana cost?
Fair enough. Than IV-AP-AB spam at the start, AB/FB rotations in the middle depending on mana availability, and IV-AP-Bloodlust-AB spam at the end -if- it doesn't bring AB below 1.0 cast time, otherwise ditch the IVs at the end and use them earlier.
There's got to be some cutoff of spellhaste where it's still more effective to IV during Bloodlust, doesn't there? I'm not sure off-hand whether IV and Bloodlust are combined additively or multiplicatively... If additive, then IV+Bloodlust, with 0 spellhaste, makes AB 1.0sec cast time. If multiplicative, 0.962. And I doubt any of us at T6+ level are running with 0 spell haste. But despite that, it still seems like it'd be most effective to stack IV during Bloodlust. It seems like there should be some cut off point of gear haste rating that makes it better to use all your IVs outside of Bloodlust. Can anyone figure that math out? Maybe I'm wrong about this, I don't know, it's just a gut feeling, so please take this with a big grain of salt.
I apologize if this has already been discussed, but has there been any determination whether a +15 spirit enchant is better for the chest for pve than the mp5?
Stacking IV with heroism gives no additional dps unless it is paired with ap/molten fury/trinket or some other nonhaste based dps incrasing ability. Stacking haste with haste (like iv+skull) in general has no benefit over using them apart from eachother if there is no other dps boost around. Risking to get below the 1 sec gcd, or with skull triggering the trinket cd in 2.4, it is actually almost always better to use them apart.
With arcane spec, you pair IV with AP and other cds during heroism, the other IV that you get via coldsnap can be used during/before/after it should not matter since it wont get any other boost but heroism. Having 20% haste for 20 sec and having 30% haste for 20 after is the same as having 50% haste for 20 sec and 0 after, unless the fight ends before that 40 seconds ofcourse.
Same goes for fire, IV should be stacked with Hex-Shrunken Head and not with skull even if you use flamecap+destropot. Stacking haste with haste has no benefit at all if you have time to use both the haste effects after each other as well. Having +211 dmg for IV and combustion is a lot better than just pairing skull with IV and using Hexhead after.
Well Ive been away from WoW for a couple weeks so I havent been able to read too much about the upcoming patch in regards to the ghost EP bug. Im jsut wondering if it is indeed still there or if I will be having to get my hit back up to 164 again.
Using Rawr.mage, here's the numbers
40 / 21 falls behind Deep fire at the very end, but until then, it's extremely competitive, if not better (assuming the shit doesnt hit the fan).
I usually raid as Deep fire, mainly because I hate the thought of chain chugging mana pots to do decent dps on semi farm mobs, so please don't take this as an Arcane Zealot post I like all specs
I have absolutely no idea how you're arriving at those numbers. Using rawr and several sets of bt/hyall gear I'm alway getting fire>>40/21. Same thing with Vontre's spresheet and Lhivera's calc which I posted earlier. I also question how rawr values int/spirt gems>>spell damage(??). Was using version b12.1.
Stacking IV with heroism gives no additional dps unless it is paired with ap/molten fury/trinket or some other nonhaste based dps incrasing ability. Stacking haste with haste (like iv+skull) in general has no benefit over using them apart from eachother if there is no other dps boost around. Risking to get below the 1 sec gcd, or with skull triggering the trinket cd in 2.4, it is actually almost always better to use them apart. [edit: unproven TC, debatable]
With arcane spec, you pair IV with AP and other cds during heroism, the other IV that you get via coldsnap can be used during/before/after it should not matter since it wont get any other boost but heroism. Having 20% haste for 20 sec and having 30% haste for 20 after is the same as having 50% haste for 20 sec and 0 after, unless the fight ends before that 40 seconds ofcourse.
Same goes for fire, IV should be stacked with Hex-Shrunken Head and not with skull even if you use flamecap+destropot. Stacking haste with haste has no benefit at all if you have time to use both the haste effects after each other as well. Having +211 dmg for IV and combustion is a lot better than just pairing skull with IV and using Hexhead after.
There are soo many mistakes in that post I won't bother pointing them out. (edit: hint, look at the bold areas)
RE-EDIT: in fact, I don't agree with a single thing you said.
Particularly you seem to have a major misunderstanding the following:
Haste effects are multiplicative.
Spell haste rating is additive.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
As time decreases from 300s to 280s Arcane DPS is at 2696 (CoS 13%, CoE 10%).
As time increases from 300s to 320s Arcane DPS is at 2615.
At 360s, 2552 DPS.
At 420s, 2572 DPS.
At 480s, 2505 DPS.
Fire:
As time decreases from 300s to 280s Fire DPS is at 2670 (CoS 13%, CoE 10%).
As time increases from 300s to 320s Fire DPS is at 2605.
At 360s, 2568 DPS.
At 420s, 2564 DPS.
At 480s, 2494 DPS.
It looks like just under 5min is the sweet spot for fire but arcane appears to be a viable spec come 2.4. I personally think I'll be going arcane for the extra ice block, trash DPS, and AoE perks.
Thanks again for Rawr, it's simply amazing.
Edit: Both specs were using optimal gear/enchants/consumables for each but with the same raid buffs.
Like every TC, proper emphasis needs to be done on what were comparing. The biggest point where nobody agrees with another is what 'normal raid/group buffs' constitutes.
Personally I think this is the 'standard' cases:
2/48/11 + spriest, elemental shaman
2/48/11 + spriest, elemental shaman, coe
40/0/21 + spriest, resto shaman, 13% cos
40/0/21 + spriest, resto shaman, jow, 13% cos
moonkin, ret pally (3% more crit) as possible %crit increase which I think should be outside of the 'standard' definition for sake of comparison. Personally I would also add:
The major point where I don't 'agree' with your numbers above is that I don't think the comparisons are actually equal. Elemental shaman with an arcane mage is 'stupid', however, in the case where you get scorch, that means you have fire mages, which usually mean you have a group of {shaman, spriest, 3x mage} hence why I put elemental shaman above. In the numbers you gave us I assume you put resto shaman for all specs, which I don't really agree with.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
My point is more using b12.1 what should be a near prefect pre 2.4 gear and full raid and group buffs I'm getting fire at around 2200 dps or 2000dps and arcane/frost at under 2000....How are you getting 500 more dps?
Personally I think this is the 'standard' cases:
2/48/11 + spriest, elemental shaman
2/48/11 + spriest, elemental shaman, coe
40/0/21 + spriest, resto shaman, 13% cos
40/0/21 + spriest, resto shaman, jow, 13% cos
moonkin, ret pally (3% more crit) as possible %crit increase which I think should be outside of the 'standard' definition for sake of comparison. Personally I would also add:
Given my current raid setup, I'll most likely have spriest, elemental shaman (since going in the resto shaman group would require giving up a consistent shadow priest), 13% cos, wc, and jow (most of the time). That seems to be almost the ideal setup for a 40/0/21 spec.
We usually run two mages, myself (formerly 2/48/11) and a deep frost mage, so locks generally put up only CoR and CoS.
You can always put yourself with a resto shaman and give the warlock an elemental shaman. For warlocks and fire mages it would definitely be a DPS increase, for an arcane mage I hadn't done the numbers but even if an elemental is an increase over a resto it's definitely going to be smaller than a warlock/firemage increase (since warlocks and fire mages have worse mana->dps conversions than arcane mages). The only way an arcane mage could possibly get more dps from an elemental shaman than a fire mage is if the arcane mage has noticeably more DPS than a fire mage - enough to make the fact he loses more dps from not having a resto shaman than a fire mage.
To simplify:
Each mage/warlcok will lose crit totem, and gain mana - both will have similar gains from crit, but fire mage/warlock will have lower gains from mana. Therefore for arcane mage to have priority on the elemental shaman not only the crit would have to outweight the mana losses, it will need to outweight it by enough to justify putting the fire mage/warlock with the resto shaman.
Regarding dropping under the 1s GCD, wether it's worth avoiding or not really depends how much you drop below it and what cooldowns you stack. Obviously with infinite haste frostbolting would be much better, while with ~1s cast time you're at the same position as if you hadn't dropped under the GCD in the firstplace. Therefore any realistic sub-GCD cast times will have to be looked at individually to actually determine what should be used when, remembering just about any cooldown will multiply any other active cooldowns. Only things that are additive and can be used just fine seperately (provided all are used with AB as it has higher relative and absolute DPS gain per every stat increased during the cast except haste and maybe crit) SCB+hex shrunken head or quag's eye proc + skull of gul'dan or possibly some other equall or less likely combinations. AP, IV, BL, haste rating, spell damage, crit rating and hit rating all multiply eachother so stacking them has a benefit.
What matters at the end is if the haste wasted by dropping under 1s cast is more of a loss than the gain of stacking everything together over seperating it and the loss of using frostbolt over AB during those cooldowns. This is so dependant on so many factors that there is probably no better way than just modeling all the options for varying fight lengths and seeing the difference.
Another thing to keep in mind is that while fight length can be estimated, it has random elements as well. Unless you're learning an enrage timer fight in which case you can assume duration=enrage timer and worst case you lost dps becuase the boss died early (in which case you didn't top meters but grats on the kill). On any other fight (with soft enrage timers (vahsj, al'ar, azgalor, kaz'rogal) or non-realistic enrage timers that you're simply not supposed to even get close to like on FLK or najentus), fight duration is rather random so while you can assume it'll take around 3.5 minutes but you can't really tell if it'll take 3 minutes or 4 minutes and thus not really knowing if you'll get 1 or 2 uses of your 3 minute cooldowns and possibly even get a 2nd use of your 2min cooldowns at extreme cases. Of course the average and the variance change a lot between different fights and different raid groups so it's very hard to model, but it's important to at least avoid giving "extra dps" due to a biased fight duration that fits 1 spec/setup/rotation/gear better than another.
Rawr.Mage should give you an accurate picture of when stacking Heroism+IV+AB is no longer benefitial. The way it works (using an LP solver) it actually does take into account all possible combinations of cooldowns and selects the best one.
Rawr.Mage should give you an accurate picture of when stacking Heroism+IV+AB is no longer benefitial. The way it works (using an LP solver) it actually does take into account all possible combinations of cooldowns and selects the best one.
I wish it did, but the current checked in version is broken for cooldowns, Kavan.
Ah, nevermind, you fixed it last night with your 'stats deep clone' checkin. Before that, it was valueing trinkets very very wrong, and not using any cooldowns. Fixed now.
I got scared by the 145 pages so i decided i would just ask if anyone has come up with a number at which adding more spell haste becomes unhelpfull? (or a spell haste cap so to say)
03/25/08, 1:28 PM
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