Depends on spec. Arcane runs into the 1.0s GCD very quickly with ramped-up AB's, which is an effective cap. I don't believe it's going to be realistically possible with Fire or Frost specs to reach the GCD, so in essence the "cap" is out of reach for those specs.

On a practical matter though, isn't it time to restart this thread with the 2.4 version? It has become pretty massive.

40/10/11 is a so-so build, seems to depend on gear and buffs.
Take a 6 minute fight, 350 mp5 (50 totem, 300 VT), T5 head/shoulder, rest Sunwell gear

40/0/21 - 2518 DPS with WC, 2422 DPS without WC
FrB+WC: 2037 DPS, +24 mps regened
FrB-WC: 1865 DPS, +24 mps regened
FB+ISC: 1452 DPS, -14 mps consumed


40/10/11 - 2464 DPS with Imp. Scorch, 2304 DPS without Imp. Scorch
Add +10 DPS on top of those figures as you can use a Sunfire Enchant.
FrB+WC: 1631 DPS, +3 mps regened
FrB-WC: 1534 DPS, +3 mps regened
FB+ISC: 2016 DPS, -7 mps consumed
FB-ISC: 1753 DPS, -7 mps consumed


So, Trispec beat Arc/Fro if and only if you have ISC but no WC. It's like Arc/Fro having WC up half the time.

Notice that Trispec is *much* more dependent on ISC than Arc/Fro is on WC.
It loses 161 DPS without ICS, while Arc/Fro loses 96 DPS without WC.
Trispec FB consumes 31mps more than Arc/Fro FrB, or 155 mp5 more.
It's slightly less DPS without WC, and more DPS with WC. Without ISC it loses by quite a margin.


The basic issue are the different design of the fire and the frost tree.
Frost is toploaded. When going down past 20/21 points, you gain 5% damage, 5% crit, 10% scaling and your pet.
Fire is bottomloaded. Past 20 points, you gain, 17% damage, 11% crit, 15% scaling.
Arcane/Frost can get most of the DPS talents for frost, while Arcane/Fire misses the talents that make fire hit so hard.


Redoing the numbers for a 4 minute fight (and Sunfire Enchant for Trispec):
2471 DPS - Trispec, no ISC
2583 DPS - Arc/Fro, no WC
2617 DPS - Trispec with ISC
2672 DPS - Arc/Fro with WC
2736 DPS - Fire/IV

Checking the numbers for a 2T5 + T6 level gear and a 3 minute fight, Trispec with ISC loses even to Arc/Fro without WC.


40/10/11 seems pretty bad overall. It offers a DPS benefit in one situation, but relies even more on a debuff it can't bring itself (ICS). Its filler spell is also a lot less mana-efficent, which means less AB time and more filler time, which means even more reliance on CoE.

You would be much more likely to have another fire mage in the raid than a deep frost mage however.

Evene,

It would be helpful if you listed the numbers you are coming up with at the BT / MH gear level. I should have explained better in my initial post.

I am using Rawr 12.1 also. For 40/0/21 I used the following gear (not the absolute best, but the best I expect to have):

t6 Helm: Chaotic Gem, +12
Transulenct SpellThread Neck
t5 Shoulders: 10 Int, 5 int, 2mp5 (blue gem req)
Cloak of Illidari Council
t6 Chest: 10 int gem x2, 10 spirit (blue gem req) Gems are a bit odd, but it's what Rawr Suggest
Cuffs of Devastation: 12 dam
t5 Hands
Anetheron's Noose
t6 legs (Leggings of Channeled Elements a tiny bit better)
Slippers of the Seacaller
Band of Eternal Sage
Ring of Ancient Knowledge
Hex Shrunken Head
Serpent-Coil Braid
Zhar'doom Staff
Carved Witch Doctor's Stick (12 dam)

Buffs: iDS, iMark, Bok, Shaman for Inspiring Presence and Wrath of Air Totem, iBoW, Flask, Food, Mage Armor, 200 mp5 Spriest + 50 mp5 for Mana Spring, Misery, CoE, CoS and Heorism. (no dest pots or drums used) 300 second fight.

The second DPS number is for when you do not wish to do AB Cycles, and you would rather do AB Burns, FB until mana back up etc, You can achieve this by unchecking both AB Cycles and Smart Optimization)

iCoS, WC, JoW: 2,288 / 2,271 dps (Currently have this as we jsut killed Illidian, but not expected)
iCos, JoW: 2,240 dps / 2,208
Jow: 2,194 dps / 2,167 (expected)
2,140 dps / 2,109
No SPriest: 2,042, 2003


-----

For 2/48/11 I used the following gear (not the absolute best, but the best I expect to have, some gems are not up to date with the new haste gems, but should be close enough). Also, hit rating is 12.73%, so it's missing .27 hit rating, not enough to switch gear, but a gem switch should have been done:

t6 Helm: Chaotic Gem, +12
Transulenct SpellThread Neck
Hatefury Mantle: 7 Stam / 6 dam (blue), 6 dam, 5 spell crit (should be swapped for haste now)
Cloak of Illidari Council
t6 Chest: 7 Stam / 6 dam (blue), 6 dam, 5 spell crit x2
Focused Mana Bindings
t6 Hands: 12 dam
Anetheron's Noose: +12 damage x2
t6 legs: +12 damage (Leggings of Channeled Elements a tiny bit better)
Slippers of the Seacaller: +12 damage x2
Ring of Ancient Knowledge x 2
Hex Shrunken Head
DarkMoon: Crusage
Vengeful Gladiator's Spellblade
Chronicle of Dark Secrets
Carved Witch Doctor's Stick (12 dam)

Buffs: Same, except Molten Armor and Flame Caps used, still no Dest pots or Drums (how I raid)

JoW: 2119.60 (Edit: With 41 Elemental Shaman and Totem of Wrath: 2,175)
no JoW: 2102 (Edit: with ToW: 2,157)
+no CoE: 1,911 (Edit: with ToW: 1,961)
or no Spriest: 2,029. (Edith with ToW: 2,083)

The numbers / gear etc are not perfect, but it is the raid makeup for my typical group comp and the consumables we use.

Edit: The above numbers do not inclue Mana Tide of Totem of Wraith, due to the fact that we do not always have an elemental shaman. Mana Tide would be a nice bust to the Arcane Build (Rawr.mage does not support Mana Tide currently), while Totem of Wraith would be a really nice bust to the Fire build, might be a wash?

Did anyone else notice that the change to mana regen only added around 30 MP5 while casting as arcane? I was expecting it to be a little more than that.


Back to 0/50/11

I havent extensively tested yet but with all the new gear available and the minor changes to mages, what is the best dps spec?

I have heard a few conflicting views that Arcane has once again surpassed deep fire. I cant prove this either way but thats why im posting to get some input from this knowledgeble forum since Im new to it.

Currently I am 2/48/11 I was 0/50/11 feeling it was the better DPS spec of the deep fire specs.

Now that HASTE is more easily attainable, would it be worth it to build a good haste set, gem it up, and mix in tier or off set pieces.

mana usage is always an issue but dps wise which spec would be most feasible to take over.

As I said, 40/10/11 only makes sense if you have scorch from other mages, if you don't, don't bother. The whole point of the build in contrast to 40/0/21 is that you rely on scorch which is more likely to be available. I'd love to compare 40/0/21 with WC/coe to 40/10/11 with scorch/coe, although I don't know what that will bring.

If anything, might as well throw in 40/18/3 and go for rotationless AB/fireball spam (and have your own scorch up too).

Moderators, can the mage community have a seperate [Mage] TC after 2.4 new thread so we can retire this thread? I am kindly asking this because there will be alot of discussion with changes with 2.4.

In my opinion, 2p T5 and 4pT6 arcane spec might be better choice of dps, this is just intiution, nothing tested yet.

It's been shown multiple times that 40/x/x builds are competitive (or better, in some cases) with 2/48/11 when 2pc T5 is still a viable option. But once you have access to Sunwell gear in most slots, the sheer stats difference from T5->Sunwell puts 2/48/11 squarely back on top.

Thinking about how to manage my CDs to max dps.

CDs:
2 min cds: skull , hex shrunken , destruction pot
3 min cds: flame cap, combustion, icy veins
1xheroism

assume 6min fight (exactly 6 mins).

The best i came up with is this:
0:00 pull
0:02 use hex shrunken + flame cup
0:22 use all available cds
2:02 use hex shrunken
2:22 use skull + pot
4:57 use flame cup
5:17 use heroism + hex shrunken
5:37 use all available cds
6:00 boss death

Not including drums on purpose. I don't have them
I was thinking if maybe i should use some other trinket instead of hex shrunken, now it can't stack with skull anymore, but can't think of anything better.

A main thread that will have all the major info would be awesome to avoid all the repetitive questions (which in the case of this thread, are not really avoidable since the information is near-impossible to find). Of course the main post will need to be constantly updated by someone reliable

In fact, as Kavan stated earlier in another post, AB spam with the new mana regen is, well, spamtastic

Since I went from 50/0/11 to 40/0/21 with 2.4 it is necessary again to watch out for spellhit for me. Hitting the 10% mark (due to the ghosthit) is just possible with regeming, which causes a horrible problem - the meta gem requirements. That problem leads to a question:

Since the msd has been nerfed heavily, it just seems useful while spamming ab with 3 debuffs to me. How does the chaotic skyfire diamond affect the DPS with an arcane specc now (assuming that it can proc while spamming ab, but also can proc while dpsing with frostbolt)? I am not the guy who is very familiar with formulas, but I can't really imagine that the msd is still worth the effort.

As far as I know MSD was never a good option for arcane other than for 2.2 AM spam. CSD is still the best choice.

Please forgive me if this question has already been answered, but:

Does ele. precision still grant 3% "ghosthit" in 2.4?
I had heard some rumours about it being removed.

I was going to give 40/0/21 a shot.
Obviously I´d like to shed as much +hit as possible while still remaining hit-capped (for arcane and frost).

Next question:
Does anybody have some "hard" numbers on 40/0/21?
Or could give some insight whether 40/0/21 performs well in SP (i.e. Brutallus)?

I can confirm that [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] does indeed work with fireball dots now, not sure about ignites since I was frost specced but I'd imagine it does.

How much dps is the proc alone on [Icon of the Silver Crescent] worth? Does this new trinket beat out the Icon for 2/48/11 ?

The answer is a resounding no, however, if that thing eats up ISB charges it might be worth it

Not so fast manly, all evidence thus far points to this trinket essentially being a recolored lightning cap.

This means the following:
It IS affected by +hit (to shadow spells)
It IS affected by +crit (to shadow spells)
It DOES get amplified by ISB (unsure if it consumes).
It IS amplified by shadow based debuffs (CoS, Misery, Shadow Weaving)

Case in point: Elenya - WWS
Observe the Shadow Bolt spell, his timbal's crit for 1100 (824 max non crit, 640 average)
From this we can also theorize:
It does NOT have 17% chance to resist, judging by the resist rate, % hit from gear does appear to work (but not talents).

Using this new information, and actual sunwell mage stats:

32% shadow crit with ele sham, 41% crit with fire, 2.8 second fireballs 1.4 scorches
Full shadow debuffs




It's a 10% proc. With a 41% crit rate (45% on Scorch):

Average cast time for 8x Fireball 1x Scorch rotation and 99% hit chance:
((8 * 2.8) + (1.4 / 0.99)) / 9 = 2.646

Average crit chance:
((8 * 0.41 * 0.99) + (0.45 * 0.99)) / 9 = 0.4103

Average time to crit:
2.646 / 0.4103 = 6.449 seconds

Ignite uptime:
4 / 6.449 = 0.620

Average Ignite ticks per second:
0.5 * 0.620 = 0.31

Fireball DOT is refreshed every time the Fireball hits. This means it will only tick every 3 seconds:
0:00: Fireball hits
0:02: DOT ticks
0:03: Fireball hits
0:05: DOT ticks
0:06: Fireball hits
0:08: DOT ticks
etc...

So, total DOT ticks per second:
0.31 + 1/2.8 = 0.667

Thus the average number of seconds between DOT ticks is:
1 / 0.667 = 1.5

And the proc rate of the trinket is 10%, and it has a 15 second internal cooldown, so average time to proc is:
1.5 / 0.1 + 15 = 30 seconds

The trinket will have a 4% miss rate and, if it uses your generic spell crit, a 32% crit chance, so its average damage will be:

((285 + 475) / 2 * (1 + (0.32 * 0.5)) * 0.96) *1.05*1.1*1.15* (assuming 75% uptime ISB) 1.15 = 646 (which is RIGHT in the ballpark of the WWS)

...and the added DPS will therefore be:
646 / 30.0 = 21.55

...on top of what the +44 damage gets you.

So despite some pretty optimistic math, this still falls short of darkmoon card. But that's probably where it should be for a normal mode trinket drop.

Manly,

I'm looking at your spec after I swung blindly at the talent editor to see if I could create my ideal 2/48/11, before gleaning from other mages' similar specs. I have a quick question for you regarding the minutia of the frost tree picks: I noticed you went for 5/5 Improved Frostbolt. I know some of the choices in the frost tree for this spec are whatever suits your fancy. Is there any reason not to take 2/2 Improved Frostnova (for limited PvE usefulness and also PvP fun)? Is there content I've yet to experience that really benefits from quicker Frostbolts if you're spec'd deep into fire? And does this content turn up often enough to validate going 5/5 there and not 2/2 Imp. Nova, 3/5 Ice Shards and 2/5 Imp. Frostbolt?

Thanks. I'm only wondering if there are raid encounters where one might be using Frostbolt while spec'd 2/48/11, therefore making Imp. Frostbolt a better choice over Imp. Frost Nova.

I'm returning to the game after a break so any input is cheerily welcomed. Thanks again,

Satori

Here is a link to the spec I chose: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Mage -> Talent Calculator

I like 5/5 Improved Frostbolt as well. I'm using Max Rank Frostbolts against mobs that are immune to fire (Al'ar, Fire Elementals, Flames of Azzinoth) and Rank 1 Frostbolts for a fast snare (Shadow Demons). With two points in Ice Shards and another Mage providing Winter's Chill my damage was quite okay in phase 2 of Illidan for the past months of farming Black Temple.

How about [Timbal's Focusing Crystal] for an AM setup? Since it apparently works off channeled spells such as Mind Flay, any chance this + TLC would be a nice combination for a haste-stacked AM spammer?