If he wants to raid frost he can go ahead. I'd rather discuss actual data and theorycraft instead of starting this old holy war again. This isn't the Blizzard mage forums, so let's try not to act like it. Is there enough information about the MSD changes so that we can accurately model it? I've heard claims that it's anywhere from a 20 second internal cooldown all the way to 60 seconds, but it's all anecdotal until someone runs a parse. The proc rate also supposedly changed.
There was a claim made on the WoW forums that the proc % was made to be 15%, but I can't find the post, and can't find it in the thottbot database. Maybe somebody can confirm?
I'd like to see how the new heroic rewards with haste on them compare with raid gear like T5 and whatnot. As frost I wouldn't have a problem with breaking the GCD like with scorch, but is it worth losing dmg/crit rating over?
No offense but the original post seems slanted towards making Frost look better than it is. For example, it doesn't address some of Frost's biggest issues; Water Elemental being vulnerable to dying, if he dies your DPS is no longer competitive. Frost has weaker AoE DPS than either Arcane or Fire. Frost does not scale as well as Fire or Arcane due to Frostbolt's coefficient penalty for having a snare effect and insufficient talents to make up for that penalty when compared with the other 2 trees.
The Coefficient tax removal is happening to Fireball as well as Frostbolt. So it won't do enough to close the gap, even though it's more of a gain for Frostbolt in terms of Coefficient per Second.
Yes, a killed WE really hurts frost, but thankfully several of bosses AoEs/abilitys don't affect pets. At the end, the survivability of the WE really depends on the boss. As frosty said, you can keep alive the WE quite well on most fights if you are used to. I added a category for that.
Frost AoE dps is lower, but if the mobs are slowable, frost offers a huge amount of control. A 6 point blizzard makes mobs extremly slow and helps worlocks spam SoC a lot longer.
At the end your dmg may be lower but raid dps will be higher and that is what counts isn't it?
About the frost nova, we use it a lot on Morowgrim (pala tanks them in the middle) cast it when the SoC explode.
I agree that theoretical frost dmg is lower than fire but frost comes closer to its theoretical maximum than fire because of the utilities.
A lot of fire mages still have the crappy frost dmg without ele and without arctic winds change in mind.
If you were a fire mage for a long time you are expirienced to keep yourself alive without IB. But to do dmg with frost you have to change your (fire) playstyle. E. g. don't run out of an AE, but stay, continue dps and IB the AE. Align your WE with boss's phases/timers. Put out your WE right at the beginning of the fight (you can't do that with ignite), etc.
However, as alvinrod stated, let's not start another war between frost and fire. Concentrate on 2.3 changes.
I've added some information and MSD assesments from [Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work?
Chance seems 10% (also heard 15%), cd seems 45 sec
PS:
Has anyone details on this line from PTR Notes:
* Players no longer gain the moving AOE radius bonus if they are jumping.
---------------------------------------------------------
EDIT: Added fresh new calculation from Vontre: [Mage] How Can Arcane Damage Work?
Pretty much what I expected.
Now take into account that there are 2 fire mages keeping scorch up and only one frost mage in his calc, as well as a 50% WE survivability and no use of IB (instead of running away) at all - I think we really can say frost and fire have a compareable dmg output.
in 2.3 how does everyone feel about spell haste vs spell damage vs spellcrit?
spell damage is probably still priority but what ratios? sorry math is very weak, anyone has already worked this out?
Actually if you're doing Hyjal style AoE frost will very easily beat out fire based on the mana efficiency of Blizzard (and the fact that, you know, it's mana efficient). Does for me anyway, since I tend to go oom all the time. For shorter stuff comboing a flamestrike->cone of cold onto shatter (yes you can shatter both) is a brutal backload of burst damage. Fire pretty much loses the aoe game, and obviously, arcane still wins.
Firstly, Ritual of Refreshment. This is liable to be annoying for those of you with less-than-courteous guildmates. It's much similar to a lightwell in that it has a limited number of charges, and anyone can take any number of charges. Oh and it requires 2 groupmates and a rune of portals, with a 3 min cooldown. 50 charges on the stack. You can spam click and pretty much instantly fill your bags with conjured food. It makes conjured Manna Biscuits, which are 7500 health and 7200 mana. So I guess everyone in the raid gets 2? I guess if all mages conjure one that will work, I just foresee people spam-clicking this thing and eating all the charges before some people get any.
Arcane Intellect and Arcane Brilliance had their mana costs cut in half.
Of course there's STOPCASTING, which has now been fixed. I tried it and the macro no longer works. So how fast are our spells now? Well... about the same as they were when we were using stopcasting. So that's cool I guess. I managed to get about 150 ms on Fireball and Frostbolt. Arcane Missiles is a headache, if you try to recast even the slightest bit early you miss the 5th missile. So I macroed a nochanneling command and spammed it, got 300 ms of latency. Ouch. Oh well as if anyone will use this spell anymore anyway. Scorch came to about 250 ms after 30 casts, could be anomaly but it still feels slow. I'll have to redo the calculations but, it doesn't really matter because this info only increases fireball dps. Scorch is hit pretty hard, relative to the projected zero latency, so that just means efficient scorching will be even more important.
Oh, addendum. That stupid click noise is back since we can't use stopcasting. I need to find a mod that will nuke that. Any suggestions?
Blizzard isn't really more mana efficient, it's just really, really slow. (Currently I'm 46/15 as probably almost all of us are, and Flamestrike is ~1.4 DPM, Arcane Explosion is ~1.5 and Blizzard is ~1.6, non raid buffed.)
Yeah I'm worried about Ritual of Refreshment. I'm happy about it still, but I was really hoping clicking on it would simply yield a full stack of 20. Why doesn't it? Who wants just 1 food?
I don't know about the rest of you but I normally hand out 40 water to our healers at the beginning of the Raid. I think that's a pretty normal number, I'll give more to anyone who wants it but that's the baseline.
One Ritual of Refreshment cast is barely enough to cover 1 person at that rate. :/ I'd like to see the quantity increased and the cooldown lowered or eliminated.
Oh, addendum. That stupid click noise is back since we can't use stopcasting. I need to find a mod that will nuke that. Any suggestions?
God. I logged in, used my G15 to spam 200 scorch per second to test specifically for this, and I definitely understand what you mean. This god damn noise is non stopping maddness with the keyboard.
I don't have much to report besides the g15 greatly helping to remove lag. And its definitely still there. Oh and - jesus christ does fireball hit hard.
To give an idea, doing 'casual' 1-button mashing, I do 0.078s - 0.109s.
Spamming as fast as possible results in 0.031s - 0.047s between keys. This is not doable for a long time under realistic situation.
If I bind 4 consecutive keys and 'twiddle' my fingers over them, I get 0.029s - 0.063s.
I guess it all depends on how fast you're willing to press your keys on the keyboard to gain DPS. You could also bind mouse scroll to get 'fast clicks'.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
Blizzard isn't really more mana efficient, it's just really, really slow. (Currently I'm 46/15 as probably almost all of us are, and Flamestrike is ~1.4 DPM, Arcane Explosion is ~1.5 and Blizzard is ~1.6, non raid buffed.)
Yeah I'm worried about Ritual of Refreshment. I'm happy about it still, but I was really hoping clicking on it would simply yield a full stack of 20. Why doesn't it? Who wants just 1 food?
I don't know about the rest of you but I normally hand out 40 water to our healers at the beginning of the Raid. I think that's a pretty normal number, I'll give more to anyone who wants it but that's the baseline.
One Ritual of Refreshment cast is barely enough to cover 1 person at that rate. :/ I'd like to see the quantity increased and the cooldown lowered or eliminated.
Pretty sure it's 50 stacks. No one said it was ONE manabiscuit.
Firstly, Ritual of Refreshment. This is liable to be annoying for those of you with less-than-courteous guildmates. It's much similar to a lightwell in that it has a limited number of charges, and anyone can take any number of charges. Oh and it requires 2 groupmates and a rune of portals, with a 3 min cooldown. 50 charges on the stack. You can spam click and pretty much instantly fill your bags with conjured food. It makes conjured Manna Biscuits, which are 7500 health and 7200 mana. So I guess everyone in the raid gets 2? I guess if all mages conjure one that will work, I just foresee people spam-clicking this thing and eating all the charges before some people get any.
Yeah, you're basically seeing the logistical concerns warlocks have with filling a raid with healthstones, aside from spam-clicking. One ritual gives 10 stones, there are 25 members in a raid, and most people want all three ranks, so you normally have 3 warlocks spending 10 minutes to get everyone decked out. For all the limitations it beats the crappity-crap out of summoning them all by hand. Spam-clicking is actually a double-edged sword in your case: if someone misses their click on mine the portal's gone and I have to summon them a stone indivudually or wait 5 minutes; you can take all the extras (or make someone else take them!) and hand them out to afktards when they come back.
Manly: Definitely mousewheel. Hunters have been doing it for months. Up and Down.
Pretty sure it's 50 stacks. No one said it was ONE manabiscuit.
Ok I had originally assumed this but the description on mmo-champion (which lacked any mention of "stacks") plus Vontre's concerns lead me to believe it was another Blizzard oversight.
Phew.
Manly, et al who actually got through, can you give us some idea of how hard your Fireballs are smashing?
To give an idea, doing 'casual' 1-button mashing, I do 0.078s - 0.109s.
Spamming as fast as possible results in 0.031s - 0.047s between keys. This is not doable for a long time under realistic situation.
If I bind 4 consecutive keys and 'twiddle' my fingers over them, I get 0.029s - 0.063s.
I guess it all depends on how fast you're willing to press your keys on the keyboard to gain DPS. You could also bind mouse scroll to get 'fast clicks'.
You sure about this? because that is the stupidest god damn thing I've ever heard.
Oh, addendum. That stupid click noise is back since we can't use stopcasting. I need to find a mod that will nuke that. Any suggestions?
I use a dummy file and place it in WoW\Data\Sound\interface\uEscapeScreenOpen.wav
@Topic: Has anyone tested the new Metagem yet? With RED the critdamage was much higher than 3% (6-11% depending on critdamage talents), but it seemed to be no bug, so I wonder how the damage for chaotic skyfire diamond is calculated.
Ok I had originally assumed this but the description on mmo-champion (which lacked any mention of "stacks") plus Vontre's concerns lead me to believe it was another Blizzard oversight.
Phew.
Manly, et al who actually got through, can you give us some idea of how hard your Fireballs are smashing?
I tested on the mobs at the Dark Portal (I didn't bother to try and go at DR BOOM, every PTR its permanently camped.)
Basically, using my fire gear, and fire spec (without molten fury, for testing reasons), and only ai/molten armor, and with 5 scorch up on the target. (and crusade stacked to 10) my non-crit fireballs are hitting for 3-3.1k. They also crit for 4.6k-4.7k (ignite not counted obviously). In case you ask, I am still sporting MSD so with CSD the crit would be even better. That is using my current gear and hellfire encased pendant + 4pct6 + crusade/icon. If I remember correctly, counting crusade as flat 80 dmg, that puts me in the +1250 damage range.
Now if only I tried with raid buffs, coe, misery and totem, I can only imagine the results.
EDIT: about CSD.
While I haven't tested it, the expected crit% is such:
1000 (non crit) x 1.5 (crit multiplier) = 1500 (pre-CSD) x 1.03 (CSD) = 1545 (post-CSD)
1545 (crit dmg) x 0.4 (ignite) = 618 (ignite damage)
1545 (post-CSD crit) + 618 (ignite damage) = 2163 (total crit damage with CSD)
in other words, your fireball crits go from 210% to 216.3% with CSD.
Last edited by manly : 10/13/07 at 5:51 AM.
<Eej> YOU"RE GONNA PULL
<Eej> IF YOU SQUEEZE OFF ANOTHER ARCANE BLAST
<Spectear> You've obviously never played with Manly.
<Spectear> That's hardly a reason to stop DPS. Very Manly Staff
To give an idea, doing 'casual' 1-button mashing, I do 0.078s - 0.109s.
Spamming as fast as possible results in 0.031s - 0.047s between keys. This is not doable for a long time under realistic situation.
If I bind 4 consecutive keys and 'twiddle' my fingers over them, I get 0.029s - 0.063s.
Hm, what mod/script/macro did you use for the numbers?
Of course there's STOPCASTING, which has now been fixed. I tried it and the macro no longer works.
What do you mean by this? I just made myself a stopcasting macro on Test and it seems to work appropriately - at least as good as the Blizzard system.
Of course, it holds the risk of prematurely cancelling a spell, which the built-in system does not have, but I wouldn't say it's not working because of that, only that it's no longer better.
I'm pretty sure the MSD cooldown is, indeed, 45 seconds. After spamming Rank 3 AM for about 7 minutes, all of my focus procs were between 46 to 55 seconds of each other, mort of the time on the lower end of that spread. That looks about right for the 15% proc claimed by Wowhead.
This would mean, for a 3-second fireball with no latency, an average of one proc per 19.26 casts, or the equivalent of 39.8 haste rating.
On cast delays:
I used my mousewheel to spam rank 1 scorch. According to the Combat log's "failed to cast spell" events, the average time between keypresses was 37ms, with a standard deviation of 45 ms (n = 3545). This is an overestimation, as the few keypresses which actually went through are ignored.
With n = 79, I had an average delay of 132 ms between Scorches, with a standard deviation of 121 ms.
I repeated it again, just for a longer duration: averaging 27 ms between "failed to cast messages (n=16984), I did 274 scorches with an average latency of 182 ms, standard deviation of 75 ms.
At least for scorch, this /stopcasting workaround seems pretty bad. My ping was between 80ms and 200 ms, most of the time.
Just did a few Fireballs. On 105 fireballs (with similar latency), the average additionnal delay was 86 ms, with a standard deviation of 169 ms (yes, this means quite a few casts were logged as taking less than 3 seconds. I had zero haste gear equipped). This looks much better, but as the sample wasn't that big, it's too early to really say.
10/12/07, 4:28 PM
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