◊ Vontre

It won't work right if there two ice mages, they'll count as the same unfortunately. Whoever is doing your parsing should be used to setting up the hunters to merge with their pets, if they overlook the water elemental they'll just have to fix it. They merge well enough in every in-game meter I've used, too, my guild uses SWstats.

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Kikler

Ye indeed lol , WWS + WE sucks , i guess you can't really seperate them since it's "Water elemental" from first mage and "Water elemental" from second mage , Though on SWstats it does seperate them

 

Vhad

If SWStats can, so can WWS coders and I think they said in v2 notes that something like that would be in a new build.

What!?

 

Sancus

Are you sure SWS can separate the Water Elemental? I was almost 100% sure that it can't - certainly you absolutely cannot separate Water Elementals based on the combat log, unless you're going to try to do some weird heuristic. Hunter/Warlock pets are trivial because they're named.

My main objection to Frost continues to be how much of a pain it is to babysit the Water Elemental. It's going to die on a lot of fights, and it seems hard to make sure it always syncs with Bloodlust, at least if you don't have a group of all mages, other party members don't necessarily want lust at the same time as your WE cooldown is up.

<Vontre> I removed the cooldown on evo
<sancus> and what happened?
<Vontre> DPS went down rofl

 

agoat

I don't think SW stats can. Wasn’t all that long ago I was running heroic Mech with a hunter friend that had his pet named after me, and SW was attributing my damage to him. Was funny to see an undergeared hunter (still wearing a few T2) own the damage meters when the rest of the dps was in SSC/TK gear.

 

Dustwhisper

It can't, never could, won't until we see how the "ID" system works. SWstats with pet-merge will add up ALL WE damage and add it to every single mage, so to get an approximation take mage damage done - WE damage done + ( WE damage / number of mages with WE ).

Anyways in the future we are supposedly getting mob ID's I'd expect that to go to WE's etc as a way to distinguish between things with the same name.

 

Nadiar

Do you have any information about this? Its one of the things Slouken has repeatedly said they will never ever give us under any circumstances.

 

Plouton

In my experience, SW Stats was always behaved strange with Water Elementals. But synchronized DamageMeters can correctly merge Water Elemental with owner if every mage have checked "merge pet" option. Don't know all details, but your pet damage can always be separated from other's pets and merged, and after sync all have correct data.

 

Pintofbrew

This discussion is getting out of hand. How damage report addons handle recording of output is utterly irrelevant to mage performance post 2.3.

If you know how many bolts your WE shot you can do your own homework. When we start trying to display our prowess to others "you have to divide water elemental by 3 and add that to mine" we're missing the point.

TC is about the pursuit of excellence. The particularities of record-keeping addons are a distraction.

 

BrTarolg

Unfortunately with the new patch i'm quite sure a lot of us have "hmm, 10/48/3 fireball + scorch rotation" hanging in the back of our mind again, and it's simply not very interesting talking about that spec or the rotation :P (even though everyone knows its a pretty solid spec if all else fails and relatively easy to use)

As far as frost goes - I think the main problem with it is that frost actually requires a level of skill higher than 10/48/3 to keep up with damage. However, given that you have that skill, I am still inclined to beleive that two(or more) deep fire mages will outperform the same number of frost mages, one full frost (WC) and the rest of them 40/0/21.

Then again, i'm not too sure how useful iceblock *really* is. I can certainly think of a few times where it would have helped, but then I think back and realise the times where it would help the most are where we wipe anyway

 

Qbert

I'm not sure if the issue was settled, but I decided to do my own testing of the "elemental precision giving an actual +6% hit bonus rather than +3%" theory.

- I did this test last night on the PTR. If people are noticing it on live they could be right, but it would just mean blizzard is aware of it and fixed it for 2.3 ... however I don't think it is bugged at all just from experience. If anyone still experiences this behavior with frostbolt then I'd argue it is another talent related to frostbolt talent (i.e. Lhivera mentioning empowered frostbolt possibly retaining its hit chance) but certainly not elemental precision.

- I unlearned talents and left 1 talent point remaining while putting zero in elemental precision. I then took off all +hit rating entirely (using my spirit stick to DPS was painful) and went out to the consortium mobs in east NS.
- I used scorch and only scorch on only level 70 mobs.

* After over 200 casts with 0 points in EP and 0 hit rating, I had scorch clocked at exactly 4.0% resists, as expected. No surprise here.

* I then cleared the meter and put 1 talent point in EP. If EP works as intended then I should see a drop to 3.0% resists ... if bugged and granting 2% per point I should see a drop to 2.0% resists.

* Results: After over 400 scorches on only lvl 70 NPCs to really put the stats to the test, the meter showed a 3.7% resist chance. Not the 3.0% or 2.0% I was expecting but it definately rules out the theory that EP grants 2% per point. If anything, I felt like a theory should exist that EP grants 0% hit per point since I was really extending my testing trying to get the resist rate to drop from 4% to 3% but it kept see-sawing between 3.5% and 4.0%.


Again this is on the PTR using scorch, there could be an issue either on live or exclusively with frost/frostbolt, but I did not test that yet.

 

Qbert

On a completely separate note; since this is likely the beginning of a long road towards returning arcane's viability but through talents/mechanics rather than items/gimmicks .... I really think it is time that AM spends mana per bolt rather than up front.

The time has come to start the tweaking buffs and this is one of the most necessary ones IMO. The mechanics are there in-game to code it (re: hellfire), it just needs to be implemented and tested sooner than later.

If AM is going to behave differently than drain spells and other 'channeled dots' by suffering LOS, then it really needs to lose the front-loaded aspect for charging mana. With so little going for it right now, the spell could use some baby steps like this.

 

Cardynal

I linked it more to show the damage taken in, not put out. He was saying that the top dps spots were draining the raid because they were lacking survivability in their specs. I am much better geared than the other mages in the guild atm...so it's not really a good comparison in that respect.

It does seem now that he was only talking about the difference between raiding frost and raiding fire...instead of raiding with a pvp spec.

 

Cardynal

I think we had pretty much agreed that this is only for Frost...or possibly only Frostbolt as I remember someone saying they were getting the correct number of resists for icelance.

Doing the same test with a low level frostbolt would be helpful.

 

Frenzi

It is only Frostbolt that is receiving more +hit than it should be. It was me who brought this up several months ago and I have been analyzing my miss rates through WWS ever since. Ice lance is working normally but frostbolt misses far less than it should.

 

Logun

Use Recount or SWstats with pets merged. I prefer Recount. Damage meters just plain out sucks.

Edit: Sorry, posted before I noticed that Vontre had it covered.

 

Evalara

How do you set Recount to record your Water Elemental? It's never worked for me.

 

Pintofbrew

Qbert: Nobody ever said anything about Precision giving 6% to fire. If such was the case we'd have discovered it ages ago, surely people would have noticed that 40hit rate or so wasn't changing their results?

What in fact I believe has happened is:

1) Ele pre, or some other talent, mistakenly gives frost extra hit. Perhaps only Fbolt perhaps not.
2) Nobody who delved very deeply into TC bothered with frost due to it's abysmal dps at the time and for the few who did they'd run 164 hit simply because they assumed such was needed.
3) Now with renewd interest sparked in frost, there has been recent cause to believe the buggy nature of FROSTBOLT hit. Note: Not icelance, or CoC or any other spell. There is reason to believe there's something itchy about Fbolt, whether it's ele prec, winter's or empowered, (or indeed, the fact that frostbolt is binary) and this is reason enough to experiment.

Wonderful patch of statistics you have there, no doubt, but I fear you're validating only that Ele Pre does not function wrongly for fire. If you want more critical data, get 2xT4 and repeat results for frostbolt with 0 in empowered, winter's and ele prec, then set of results with winter's and empowered, then set of results with all talents to get meaningful data.

 

Rouncer

Always records it for me using just the default setup. It actually shows your damage merged and then has a separate line for just the elementals damage by itself. If you click on your damage line and look at the breakdown it will show the waterbolt damage there along with the rest of your damage.



As for the +hit and frostbolt, is it possible that they are giving back the 5% damage we lose for the snare as +5% hit on unsnarable targets?

 

Zure

Regarding the water elemental, it might be possible to separate them if the mage's had different amounts of +dmg gear, such that the elemental's water bolts could be assigned to different players. So long as you could get one bolt outside of the range of the others, you might be able to then attribute all bolts cast on the same delay to that elemental.

Seems like a herculean task though.

Assuming it's possible to test for the presence of a combat pet, the simplest route is to simply divide water bolt damage done amongst mage's who have a combat pet out when the waterbolt hits. You could even just divide all water bolt damage done amongst the mages, weighted for time a combat pet was active for each and you'd get pretty close to the proper numbers.

 

Rouncer

Should be made a lot simpler when Blizzard finally gets around to implementing it's new Combatlog system, I thought it was coming with 2.3 patch but I guess maybe it is supposed to be with 2.4?

 

Kadaan

I ran TK with only 139 hit rating last night as frost. 139 hit rating is +11.02% hit, so I should be getting 3% resists (17% - 11% - 3% from ele precision). If ele precision is adding an additional 3%, I should be at 1% resists. There were no shaman so I had no +hit outside of gear.

Solarian Attempt 1: 6 hits, 0% miss (Kadaan - WWS)
Solarian Attempt 2: 22 hits, 4.8% miss (Kadaan - WWS)
Solarian Attempt 3 (kill): 68 hits, 3.2% miss (Kadaan - WWS)
VR Attempt 1: 43 hits, 2.8% resisted (Kadaan - WWS)
VR Attempt 2: 17 hits, 0% resisted (Kadaan - WWS)
VR Attempt 3 (kill): 71 hits, 2.5% resisted (Kadaan - WWS)

A small sample, but it looks like it's working properly to me.

 

Alayn

Very fast PTR test to check the Elemental Precision "bug":
The size of the test is short but enough to see the bug :P The test is made vs lvl 70 mobs.

Talents:
5/5 Imp. Frostbolt
5/5 Ice Shards
3/3 Piercing Ice

Test1:
0 Hit Rating
0/3 Elemental Precision


Test2:
0 Hit Rating
1/3 Elemental Precision


(i do more testing after today raid, since the sample size is too small)

Alayn

 

Pintofbrew

Rounced: If indeed they did something like that, we'd be told. They aren't inclined to think this deeply about mechanics based on previous examinations, and even if they where, 5% hit is a damn-slight much more powerful than 5% coefficient (note, not 5% damage).

Kadaan: Sample is dramatically small. You expect to get a representative result discriminating 1 and 3% resist in sample sizes of 227 is better than nothing but still rather grim. 7 resists in 227 is indeed a spot-on 3% but bare in mind 1% is only 4.5 resists off that. I'd like to see much more evidence than 7 resists before I make my mind up on whether 164 hit is what frost needs.

Alayn: Again, sample size is too small. Triple it and we're talking. When we're comparing two resists to three resists this small a number is non-sensical. Also, this model doesn't account for the possiblity it's Winter's Chill, Empowered Frostbolt or Arctic Winds as has been proposed by some posters. Try speccing only imp. frostbolt and making a sample of 200 at least, then comparing to full spec all other talents except ele pre.

Lastly, nobody seems to think this could be related to the intrisic boss 5% resilience?

 

Rouncer

Never heard of any mechanic in place like that, can you elaborate?