[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 29

◊ Vontre · 11/06/07, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by koetjeka

Spell pushback occurs when you cast a spell and get hit by some enemy. Every hit you receive will increase your casting time by 0,2 seconds or so, when looking at your castbar you will notice a "pushback".

It's actually a full second on the first hit.

Muphrid · 11/06/07, 3:24 PM

Originally Posted by Qbert

Great work, Refuse!

Now the question for me that pops up is; Would it be plausible that frost and binary spells in general are getting double the benefit of hit% from all sources from a coding glitch with binary spells rather than just pointing the finger at elemental precision?

It may be unlikely but it is worth the effort to know for sure that it is undoubtedly the talent giving the bonus hit% and not a binary-spell bug.

No, it would seem that EP is at work here, as the baseline Frostbolt with no talents saw no hit chance increase.

Whether this EP bug would apply to all binary spells (and not just Frostbolt) is a valid question, but it's definitely EP.

Evalara · 11/06/07, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by Zalbo

Blastwave is binary i believe, not that it's at all practical to test that.
Blizzard isn't binary, and hits every second, so you could test that even quicker than ice lance (assuming AOEs are effected the same)

As far as I know Blizzard cannot be resisted at all.

Naturally if anyone has a disproving screenshot I'd love to see it!

Vand1 · 11/06/07, 3:46 PM

Originally Posted by Muphrid

No, it would seem that EP is at work here, as the baseline Frostbolt with no talents saw no hit chance increase.

Whether this EP bug would apply to all binary spells (and not just Frostbolt) is a valid question, but it's definitely EP.

I think the point that Qbert was making, and it seems a valid one, is whether frostbolt receives double benefit from anything that increases hit. EP is the only thing that refuse tested for that increases chance to hit, and he proved that it provided a double benefit. What you cannot determine from his data alone is whether other sources of +hit would behave similarly with frostbost. Would being grouped with a Draenei give frostbolts +2% to hit, for example? Or would a +hit gem give double benefit?

As I said, you cannot determine those answers from refuse's data alone. However, I believe we have seen other information that shows that frostbolts have a total extra +3% hit, regardless of the total value of a player's +hit. If other things were also giving a double benefit, frostbolts would be hit capped at ~100 +hit, and I am pretty sure we have enough information to conclude that that is not the case.

refuse · 11/06/07, 3:51 PM

Originally Posted by kadgar

I copied the numbers to a excel sheet to check the difference between 2 and 1 roll system for the crits but some numbers seem a bit strange:
-Number of fireball crits in tests 4 and 5 seem to be switched between top and bottom of post.
-I don't get your number of 27605 casts for frostbite test, wich values are you adding here?
-If you say 3948 hits, 195 crits and 869 resits you mean a total number of 5012 (hits+crits+resists) casts and 4143 (hits+crits) spells landed right?

Thanks for the catch, they were indeed transposed (although the listed percentage was still the correct one)

3948 hits, 195 crits and 869 resists = 5012 spells were cast and 4143 of them landed, yes.

For the frostbite blurb i added up values from tests 2, 3 and 3b which were the ones i recorded frostbite procs on (1b also had them but i forgot to record)
The combined casts in those three sets (hit crit or miss) was 27605,
The combined connects (hit or crit) were 24373.
The combined number of frostbite procs were 4015.
specifically...
2. frostbite immune messages 374
3. frostbite immune messages 2866
3b. frostbite immune messages 775

Fizzl: These tests were done on a live server

As to testing fire binary spells or frost non binary ones, it might be fun to know, but i dont think it would have any practical use (for me). Regardless of the outcome of the tests i would play/gear/spec my character in the exact same way. If blizzard were to introduce a non binary frost spell i actually wanted to shoot at a +3 mob, or an additional +hit talent that affected frostbolt i would definitely want to test that.

edit: Vand makes a good point. Ive copied my character to the ptr so if anyone with a horde shaman wants to coordinate a test with me via pm id be willing to put in another 5k casts with totem of wrath.

Frenzi · 11/07/07, 7:19 AM

Originally Posted by Vontre

It's actually a full second on the first hit.

That isn't strictly true, it varies dependent on how far through the cast you are, so it won't always be a full second the first time you get hit.

Pintofbrew · 11/07/07, 7:40 AM

Frenzi makes a good point: Does anyone have data on how spell pushback works? I've seen it push 1.0sec, 0.6 and 0.2sec judging by the readout on OCB but I've never seen a conclusive patter as to what pushback is assigned and whether it's related to where the cast bar is relative to the total cast.

Myrdinn · 11/07/07, 8:12 AM

I think too its a full 1sec pushback.
But, you can not go below 0s

If you are pushbacked @ 0.5sec cast, you will only loose 0.5s total.

Stirius · 11/07/07, 8:16 AM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

how spell pushback works?

wowwiki says this (no idea if this is correct):

The first attack will set your casting time back by 1 sec. Any consequent attack will set it back by a lower amount. The amount decreases by 0.2 sec with every attack, down to a minimum of 0.2 sec per attack. However, no attack will actually increase the casting time. For example if you cast only 0.2 sec. of a spell, it would only be set back by that amount.

Aluscia · 11/07/07, 11:44 AM

As a quick addition to this conversation (ignore the title): WoW Forums -> Season 3 Start Date
We now have a date (albeit tentative) for 2.3, which gives me a little bit of concern because I'm not even close to regearing to go back to fire or frost.

So, for Arcane Missile spammers like me, what spec is really dealing more damage? Also, have we looked at the TPS side of things in any of these calculations? If you are threat-capped using fire, would it not be possible to out damage (not DPS) fire using arcane, thus making it more optimal? I heard mutterings of this from mages in Drow, and was curious as to what others thought about it.

Pintofbrew · 11/07/07, 12:52 PM

Ask yourself how often you'd be threat-capped. Then ask yourself, during these rare occasions, would you really care that you can output a little more via DPS time while you'd be idling in fire. Personally I doubt it; speccing 200 less dps so you can once in a while not have to wait for a few seconds is an excercise in feutility: If the threat margin is such a huge problem for you, press Invisibility and wait for 5 seconds.

There is still the potential to do 2xT5 ABx3,AM,Sc rotations of yesteryear if you're so low on hitrate you can't even think about frost/fire, but I'd urge you to consider frost as at least a stop-gap if it's not your thing: We have proven recently in this thread frostbolt is getting 3% extra hit from Ele. Pre. making a much more achievable hit cap of 126 (or so) rather than 164.

If I were you, I'd beg borrow and steal my way to enough hit for fire and never look back on the clearly broken arcane spec, even though we enjoyed a brief respite from it's uselessness in the form of the gimmick 2.2 AM spam.

Qbert · 11/07/07, 1:01 PM

Sorry for the slight stray from the discussion, but I just had a quick question that I couldn't find the answer for anywhere else;

With the changes to Evocation making it a power gain in 2.3, will this also make the mana gained generate threat per mana?

This could factor into encounters like Vash'j where a mob could spawn near you mid-Evoc. I've had mana gems and potions get me killed in the same circumstances.

Pintofbrew · 11/07/07, 1:51 PM

Qbert : I don't understand what "making it a power gain" means.

Mana gain generates threat as of day 1 of wow. The amount of threat is (mana gained)/4.

I have pulled aggro on Leotheras during transitions with manastones, in Onyxia with mana pots and I've seen a hunter pull aggro on Hydros transition by drinking water OOC due to a revive-pet/FD.

I don't get what you mean "power gain" but it sure as hell will make mobs hate you, though an insignifficantly small amount. It only becomes an issue when generating mana on 0 aggro mobs, and even then a tank should sort it out faster than you can get hit.

Maledict · 11/07/07, 2:10 PM

What he's referring to is the fact that currently Evocation generates 0 threat - it is counted as our normal spirit based mana regen, only boosted.

In 2.3, it now counts as a mana gain in the same nature as mana potions, so will raise your threat level accordingly on bosses, and will generate threat on newly spawned mobs such as striders on Vashj etc. I would also expect a few nasty deaths on Leo or Hydross when the aggro wipe happens and a mage is evocating...

Copernicus · 11/07/07, 2:12 PM

Evocation is currently just a buff to spirit regeneration. It generates a minor amount of threat, but only for the buff- not for any mana gained. Spirit regen, mana/5 regen from gear, and Blessing of Wisdom regeneration don't generate any threat. The question is if it's still that minor amount of insignificant threat from the buff, or if it's direct mana gained like with drinking a potion or using a mana gem.

Cardynal · 11/07/07, 2:17 PM

Originally Posted by Aluscia

As a quick addition to this conversation (ignore the title): WoW Forums -> Season 3 Start Date
We now have a date (albeit tentative) for 2.3, which gives me a little bit of concern because I'm not even close to regearing to go back to fire or frost.

So, for Arcane Missile spammers like me, what spec is really dealing more damage? Also, have we looked at the TPS side of things in any of these calculations? If you are threat-capped using fire, would it not be possible to out damage (not DPS) fire using arcane, thus making it more optimal? I heard mutterings of this from mages in Drow, and was curious as to what others thought about it.

A mage can't be threat capped unless his invis is down. We haven't had to use it much as arcane...but we're going to need to get used to it again. Also, a tranq air totem can be used at the start of a fight for the tank to get a nice head start on threat.

Pintofbrew · 11/07/07, 2:19 PM

I wasn't aware that spirit-based regen didn't cause threat. Perhaps test this by grouping on PTR, having someone else body-pull a mob and 1xmelee hitting it for something around 300-400 dmg. This should be sufficient aggro to be more than "buff gain" aggro but less than the aggro generated from one tic of evocate. Activate Evo and see if the critter switches to you.

As a control, you can also do the same but down a superior manapot (or whichever is equivalent in mana-generation terms) instead, to make sure it's a valid idea.

chase · 11/07/07, 2:23 PM

Originally Posted by Pintofbrew

Qbert : I don't understand what "making it a power gain" means.

Mana gain generates threat as of day 1 of wow. The amount of threat is (mana gained)/4.

Mana gained via BoW, innervate, and evoc generate 0 threat.* However, outside sources such as mana/health pots will be seen.

Now something like VT generates threat as .5 mana is 1 threat or mana gained/2, same as healing.

From Omen:

self.ThreatConstants = {
		healing = 0.5,
		meleeAggroGain = 1.1,
		rangeAggroGain = 1.3,
		rageGain = 5.0,
		energyGain = 5.0,
		manaGain = 0.5,

In those rare cases where you have mob spawns in random locations on random timers, then yes you may have to be carefull on when you evoc.

*BoW giving threat to the paladin was funny stuff when it worked that way.

edit: Apparently I'm very slow.

Qbert · 11/07/07, 2:44 PM

Power gains are like heals and are 0.5 threat right?

Given a 10k mana pool, @ 0.5 threat evoc would be equivalent to 3k arcane damage, @ 1.0 threat it would be 6k arcane damage.

Over 8 seconds the former is equivalent to 375 arcane DPS while the latter is 750 arcane DPS.

Without arcane subtlety an evocation could be a substantial amount of threat if the threat gain is 1.0 threat per mana gained. Granted the threat is dispersed amongst active targets in combat with you.

Cardynal · 11/07/07, 4:52 PM

I'm really not sure why people are concerned with the threat from evocation. Healers are going to be generating much more global threat than evocating mages...and it's going to be less TPS than actually dpsing the primary target with fire or frost. If you're worried about picking up a freshly spawned mob on the vashj fight from evocation...your healers are screwed already.

Rouncer · 11/07/07, 5:05 PM

Well it definitely does have an effect on game play. I normally plan on evocating during transitions or when aggro gets touchy and now that won't really work.

I really feel sorry for mages leveling up with the new version of evocate since the aggro from it will actually be stronger then what they will be generating with their AE spells.

Just posted a thread about it on the Mage forums.

"Level 50 mage with a 5k mana pool will generate 187.5 threat per second to all aggroed mobs. That level 50 mage if they had 150 spell damage would only generate 169.67 threat per second with Arcane Explosion spam. If they had no additional spell damage then they only would generate 129.33 threat per second with AE spam."

Copernicus · 11/07/07, 5:14 PM

If I recall correctly, non-targeted threat (healing etc.) is divided by the number of mobs that are on that person's aggro list.

My main question is if Evocation's threat is changed by Arcane Subtlety.

Qbert · 11/07/07, 5:41 PM

Originally Posted by Cardynal

I'm really not sure why people are concerned with the threat from evocation. Healers are going to be generating much more global threat than evocating mages...and it's going to be less TPS than actually dpsing the primary target with fire or frost. If you're worried about picking up a freshly spawned mob on the vashj fight from evocation...your healers are screwed already.

It most definately has an effect on gameplay involving mid-encounter spawns. I usually try to evocate during the downtime like when new spawns are having threat established by tanks..... but if this means that 2 ticks of evocate is on par with popping a super mana potion, it certainly can be a bad thing if the spawn is nearby and your evoc ticks as it spawns.

Note that there is such thing as proximity aggro not to mention that a healer needs to outheal your mana gain by 20% if the spawn is in melee range at the time. Simply put; popping mana gems has gotten me killed, no reason evoc wouldn't if it generates mana-gain threat in 2.3.

Cardynal · 11/07/07, 5:45 PM

I suppose it could get a little tricky in transition phases where little to no healing is done...such as hydross. Personally i only use evocation as a last ditch effort to regain mana and never plan to use it ahead of time.

If they were to ever fix the basic problem with evocation, then it would be a much larger issue. My problem with evocation is that it's channeled. You can't be hit and you can't dps...there for it's crap in arenas and not always viable in raiding. If they were to make it a tempory buff (much like innervate) then it would be much more useful. Mages would be able to use it in arenas (helping with the large issue of mana) and be able to increase their dps in raiding.

If it were to ever go to this type of spell...an extra few hundred TPS while using arcane explosion in hyjal could cause issues.

I beileve healing threat is just .5xheal to all targets around...not dependant on how many.

Copernicus · 11/07/07, 5:51 PM

Originally Posted by Cardynal

I beileve healing threat is just .5xheal to all targets around...not dependant on how many.

4) AOE Threat: Healing, Buffing, Power Gain
Each point of healing causes 0.5 threat, forgetting threat modifiers. Overhealing doesn't cause threat. Most buff spells cast on friendly players generate a small amount of threat. Gaining Power (Mana / Energy / Rage) also causes threat in most cases, for example taking a healing potion, or gaining rage from Bloodrage, or Energy from Thistle Tea. Certain spells are exempt, for example mana from Blessing of Wisdom or a Mana Spring totem doesnt cause threat, and there is no threat from the healing gained from Siphon Life. For normal abilities, each point of Mana is 0.5 threat, Rage is 5 threat, and Energy is unknown, probably 5. In the scheme of things, threat from power gain is usually irrelevant, unless you have consistent or burst values, such as taking a mana potion or having Fel Energy running.

These forms of buffs all have infinite range; they will cause threat to all mobs on whose threat list you are on. Furthermore, the threat caused is split equally among all the affected mobs. If you are on one mobs threat list, a 1000 point heal will cause 500 threat to that mob. If 5 mobs are aware of you, the same heal will cause 100 threat on each mob.

Note that threat caused from Power Gain is not affected by threat modifiers. Gaining 1 point of Rage will give 5 threat whether you are in Battle Stance or Defensive Stance.

Kenco: A Guide To Threat.

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And it turns out that thread contains the answer to my question in regards to Arcane Subtlety.