[Mage] TC after 2.3 - Page 3

BrTarolg · 10/13/07, 2:06 PM

Originally Posted by koetjeka

untill patch 2.3 you could increase the AOE radius of Arcane Explosion by ~10-15% when you jumped :P

lol indeed :P
I myself am just going to make a G15 macro that will click 1000 times a second and make it work like caps lock

On the contrary - AE had a range of 6 yards instead of 10 yards as displayed on the tooltip

Jumping would increase the range to 8 yards.

I *still* would prefer it if they just made AE 10 yards already like it says on the tooltip. Why nerf something that is already broken?

Rouncer · 10/13/07, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by BrTarolg

On the contrary - AE had a range of 6 yards instead of 10 yards as displayed on the tooltip

Jumping would increase the range to 8 yards.

I *still* would prefer it if they just made AE 10 yards already like it says on the tooltip. Why nerf something that is already broken?

"Causes an explosion of arcane magic around the caster, causing 377 to 407 Arcane damage to all targets within 10 yards."

That means creates a circle with a Diameter of 10m and affects everything within that circle. So the range would be equal to the radius, which would be 5m. They made it 6m to account for your personal space (I'm guessing).

When you jumped the radius would increase so that you could affect things 8m away from you, greatly increasing the area as defined on the tooltip, that was the issue and that is what is being "corrected".

Too bad, I really did like having to time my AE with my jumps for maximum effect. I liked that it brought an element of skill into something that is otherwise so absolutely mindless.

pipermoonrunner · 10/13/07, 5:00 PM

I have a few questions, maybe Manly / Ventro or other experienced posters can help me out.

We are not at T6 level yet, just as I was happy about the 2.3 haste gears for AM spamming, they dropped the MSD nerf bomb. In light of this, and our progression currenly at SSC / TK, I have the following question (I've read what you guys said about fire, but that's with full T6 level gears):

1. which will be better, 2pcT5 ABx3 AM Scorch without haste gears or deep fire with all the Zal'aman/Heroic badges haste gears? (TC would be appreciated)

Problem with former I see is haste gears will screw up the rotation.

2. For both specs, how much value is hit/crit/haste ?

3. Is 4pcT5 bonus worth over using haste gears? for AB or Deep fire spec?

This is important because I will need to start preparing towards the spec I will use once 2.3 comes out. Thanks in advance

Kavan · 10/13/07, 6:13 PM

Has anyone done any testing if swapping in int weapons for evocation works as expected? If you swap mid evocation will it increase the ticks or do you have to swap before you start the cast?

◊ manly · 10/13/07, 6:48 PM

Originally Posted by Roywyn

Hm, what mod/script/macro did you use for the numbers?

I am using the G15 utility. When you create macros you can see live the timing between your keypresses and change them. I created a series of macros with me spamming one key just to see the delay between them.

Setia · 10/13/07, 7:58 PM

One thing I've been thinking about...

The new Evocation shows the mana gained in the combat log. Does it cause threat?

About CSD, good news: the testing I've done with scorch points to it doing (crit damage) * 1,03 instead of (crit multiplier + 0,03). My sample wasn't that big (109 hits and 70 crits), but the ratio between crit and non-crit damage was pretty spot-on at 1,54547 (expected: 1,545). I haven't tested it with Ice Shards or Spellpower.

For some reason, Arcane Missile seems to get 154% crits without the meta and 157,5% with. This spell is bizarre.

Setia · 10/13/07, 8:00 PM

Originally Posted by Kavan

Has anyone done any testing if swapping in int weapons for evocation works as expected? If you swap mid evocation will it increase the ticks or do you have to swap before you start the cast?

Yeah, it works as expected.

Pacnaa · 10/13/07, 8:23 PM

Originally Posted by Setia

Yeah, it works as expected.

I currently swap out spirit gear right before evocation. I was planning on doing the same with int come 2.3 with the change. Are you saying that if I swap in the middle rather than at the beginning I gain more mana back and does this apply currently with spirit as well?

Roywyn · 10/13/07, 8:50 PM

Uh, did I get it right that the function you used to see your cast delay is done by G15?

Is there any method to display/measure the delay with "normal" means as well?

kadgar · 10/13/07, 9:07 PM

Managed to get on the test server.

MSD change is even worse in practise than it already sounds in theory.
MSD proccs off nearly everything and with a higher chance now.
Actually it's not a problem if you can't use a focus proc wich comes from buffing, sheeping, blink, evocation, etc.
But in 2.3 with the 45sec cd and only 6 sec duration if you can't use a focus proc from sheep/blink/... you've really lost dps because focus has cd even if not used.
If you get a focus proc from evocation cast, this one is surely lost.

Originally Posted by Kavan

Has anyone done any testing if swapping in int weapons for evocation works as expected? If you swap mid evocation will it increase the ticks or do you have to swap before you start the cast?

Did some tests with evocation:

Test1: No weapons/offhands equipped, gnome, no arcane talents
430 int, 8411 mana: 4*1262 ticks

Test2: equipping 48 int (=51gnome) manually right after the start of cast
481 int, 9176 mana 4* 1376 ticks

Test3: unequipping weapons after the first tick.
Fist tick is 1376, 2nd+3rd: 1344, 4th 1288 (did a bad job unequipping the items manually)

So yes, evocation is now int based and works as expected:
It returns 15% of the max mana you have at the moment of each tick.
So start evo, equipp your int weapons befor the first tick (2 sec without haste) and stay with your int weapons until evo is completly finished.
Get a Staff of Infinite Mysteries - Items - World of Warcraft and enchant that ...

---------------

Something else: I haven't seen a global cd triggered by weapon switching anymore.
Can somebody confirm?

◊ manly · 10/13/07, 9:24 PM

Uhhh I'm sorry but its readily obvious that Amana Divining Staff will be THE evocation staff hands down. 47 int and 3 sockets means 107 int with epic gems + enchant. Then for your wand you want Carved Witch Doctor's Stick (15int + socket), giving you a total of 25 int from the wand alone.

Nothing from pre ZA will come REMOTELY close to those numbers.

Shawn · 10/14/07, 12:50 AM

Though until then [Auchenai Staff] or [Seer's Cane] probably are the cheapest alternatives. The Intellect-enchant is pretty cheap so I think I'm just gonna slap an enchant on one of them until I get that ZA-staff (and not feel guilty taking it just for Evocation..

). I quite like this change, especially for PvP.

Xei · 10/14/07, 4:49 AM

Originally Posted by Seath

Wait so, if I am reading this correctly, the faster you spam the Fireball key the less latency will affect your Fireball?

This question also plagues me - can someone confirm/deny this from their tests?

BrTarolg · 10/14/07, 5:07 AM

Btw - i have two thoughts about the new "stopcasting" system

Firstly, if it is indeed a spell queue (contrary to what they said) - spamming would not be helpful at all, because youd only have to press it once, possibly before the latency bit on the quartz bar

Secondly - if it works as i think it works - where blizzard has done something awesome where it stopcasts ALL spells, however - if they interrupt another spell then it WONT stopcast it - then what happens is whilst you STILL get latency (albeit much reduced because it should only be half of what you get before - only you ---> server) - this means quartz is still useful. Essentially you dont need to spam, you just need to use quartz again and time your "casts" when you get into the green in quartz (or in my own rebellious format, i embed it with red ^^)
I dont have PTR yet, but im quite sure this will be much better than attempting to spam the key as there is a good chance you will "miss" the appropriate "stopcast" time, or there may be a cap on how many times youre allowed to press it.

So basically, blizzard have just implemented stopcasting macros into all spells, except that its impossible to accidentally interrupt spells

Ztorm · 10/14/07, 5:19 AM

Originally Posted by manly

Uhhh I'm sorry but its readily obvious that Amana Divining Staff will be THE evocation staff hands down. 47 int and 3 sockets means 107 int with epic gems + enchant. Then for your wand you want Carved Witch Doctor's Stick (15int + socket), giving you a total of 25 int from the wand alone.

Nothing from pre ZA will come REMOTELY close to those numbers.

That wand actually seems like a great choice for DPS as well, assuming you don't have the one off Solarian. Add a +12 spell damage gem and you're getting +30 damage and stats from your wand slot. They're probably going to be unique when they go live though.

EDIT: While we're on the subject of items in Zul'Aman, has anyone else noticed how powerful the Hood of Hexing is? In terms of stats and DPS, it's superior to the Cowl of the Grand Engineer (assuming you're not hit capped). If you socket it with 3 +12spell damage gems, you're basically getting an item that rivals T6.

◊ manly · 10/14/07, 5:21 AM

No no no. You guys really got the wrong idea of the changes.
Here's how it works:

'very casual' mashing
10/12 22:36:02.967  Your Scorch hits Servant of Razelikh for 1109 Fire damage.
10/12 22:36:03.049  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.   (note: this message comes from the server, not from the client. This is the major change.)
10/12 22:36:03.232  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:03.400  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:03.599  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:03.799  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:03.985  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:04.166  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:04.353  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:36:04.617  Your Scorch hits Servant of Razelikh for 1152 Fire damage.

(don't look and try to estimate time takent to cast scorch, the point was to show that the combatlog now displays the results from casts)

Basically, you DO NOT make a macro that does '/stopcasting /cast scorch' in 2.3. If you do, the ONLY thing it will do is lower your DPS in case you stopcast too early. What you do is simply mash your scorch key. The client always sends your cast to the server, and the servers decides if you begin casting it (ie: if you're not actually casting a spell, it will begin the new cast).

The implications is that the faster you press your scorch key, the less you will pay for the latency tax. This will not eliminate lag at all.

EDIT:
The implications of this are also that you should still use quartz. The difference is that you begin to spam your cast key once you start to get near the red bar.

EDIT: Just for comparisons sake, heres the same thing using a conservative setting on the G15:

G15 mashing with 0.025s interval.
10/12 22:48:15.777  Your Scorch crits Servant of Razelikh for 1764 Fire damage.
10/12 22:48:15.811  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:15.827  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:15.861  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:15.894  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:15.928  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:15.961  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:15.978  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.011  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.061  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.077  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.111  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.144  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.177  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.211  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.260  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.260  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.294  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.327  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.361  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.394  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.428  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.461  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.495  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.526  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.543  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.578  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.614  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.644  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.678  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.696  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.745  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.793  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.793  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.828  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.860  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.895  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.895  You gain 54 Mana from Master of Elements.
10/12 22:48:16.928  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.962  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:16.978  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.010  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.045  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.078  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.112  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.145  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.162  Servant of Razelikh is afflicted by Ignite.
10/12 22:48:17.178  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.210  You fail to cast Scorch: Not yet recovered.
10/12 22:48:17.347  Your Scorch crits Servant of Razelikh for 1816 Fire damage.

Roywyn · 10/14/07, 5:24 AM

Originally Posted by kadgar

Something else: I haven't seen a global cd triggered by weapon switching anymore.
Can somebody confirm?

It only triggers a GCD when in combat, I guess you did your tests out of combat.

For Evocation, the staves with 47 int + 3 sockets are easily the best (=77), Talon of the Tempest (2 sockets) and a green off-hand give 65, green staff or MH/OH give 56.
You get a lot less mana per intellect than per spirit though, about half of it.

Still dieing to find out if there is a method to measure that cast delay without a G15.

BrTarolg · 10/14/07, 5:59 AM

Originally Posted by manly

EDIT:
The implications of this are also that you should still use quartz. The difference is that you begin to spam your cast key once you start to get near the red bar.

So just checking - if you cast EXACTLY when quartz tells you to, then you would get the minimum lag possible right? Seeing as quartz compensates for the sending lag aswell as the receiving lag from the server, it should calculate lag pretty much precisely right?

The reason i ask is that when i cast, i would imagine timing gives a much more precise cast than just spamming the key, because i dont press fast enough (and i dont have g200 or any of that).

Also, is it possible for you to do ABx3 fireballx2 scorch yet? Or is the latency still generally too much for that? It would seem that with the minimum latency possible it MIGHT be able to get but it doesnt really look possible with a consistent 150~ms lag (mine)

◊ manly · 10/14/07, 6:16 AM

Actually, to answer you, no. Quartz will give you a good idea of when you should press your key. The problem is, quartz assumes constant latency. Latency is not constant. If latency was truly constant, then stopcasting would allow precisely 0.01s lag every time. The problem has always been the variance in latency and not latency itself.

Quartz will show the bar based on the latency you get when you begin the cast. This means quartz assumes the latency will be the same 3 seconds later when you start casting your next spell. But latency is not constant; the best proof I can give you to it is that your red bar on quartz will never be at the same place from cast to cast.

The end result of this is that you should begin to spam your scorch key once you get near the red bar - not when you reach it. You could otherwise be losing dps.

Darkmantle · 10/14/07, 6:34 AM

Manly have you been disconnected for spamming scorch messages yet?
If not could you keep ramping up your G15 to see if there is a limit to the number of messages the server will accept? If you send enough messages you will eventually look like a DOS attack.

◊ manly · 10/14/07, 8:53 AM

Well, I never tested above 40 spells / second. I don't really see any incentive to go much above it. I mean technically the Operating System switches execution between threads every few milliseconds (assuming single CPU here). Any values set below that threshold means the messages (keypresses) will be sent in 'burst' once the operating system switches to the thread the G15 application uses.

This is a bit messy to explain, but basically a single CPU cannot run multiple applications at the exact same time. It is not possible. What the operating system does to emulate the effect is that it gives 'time slices' to each running application and switches between them to emulate multitasking (context switch). With this said, if every time slice is 12 ms, then any keypresses below that point will just end up all being sent at 12ms intervals in 'burst'. I could be wrong, but if memory serves me well, processes in Windows NT have 13 ms by default for normal process priority. Maybe someone can correct me on those numbers.

But the gist of what I am saying is that there wouldn't be any benefits to set up a really high number of keypress/sec, as they would just end up being sent together every 12ms interval.

And no, I never got kicked for flooding at 40 spells / second. I seriously doubt a player would get kicked for flooding, assuming you only press once you get near the red bar....there is no reason to spam for 80% of the time (except lazyness, ah well).

Darkmantle · 10/14/07, 10:17 AM

I was just wondering because I don't have a g15 keyboard and if things remain how they are I can imagine some insanity if i get one. My idea would be to have cast shadowbolt going off permanently once the fight starts up and just strafe to stop the shadowbolts so I could lifetap/control agro. I would essentially become a shadowbolt machine gun that fired whenever I stopped. I admit it would spam the server but hell at least my aussie lag will almost never matter. It would be perhaps the most effortless raiding experience ever designed.

Rouncer · 10/14/07, 10:25 AM

My question is does the spam cause lag in your game?

I came up with the spam notion and I think it's how it is intended to function but I would love a comparison between someone attempting to perfectly time the spellcasts utilizing Quartz (no macro of course) and just one press vs someone G15-spamming from just before the red line.

I've also been thinking about Arcane Missiles and utilizing [nochanneling]. What I am thinking now is that the [nochanneling] determination is probably determined at the client level which would require normal back and forth latency for it to know that the channel has ended as opposed to the nochanneling being determined at the server level which would give you perfect executions for the new channeling to start.

Hopefully Blizzard will realize the issue and move that macro command to the server level but until then it would seem your best dps for a channeling spelll would be to utilize Quartz and start the new channel as close to the red line as possible.

Sengiratolom · 10/14/07, 10:42 AM

i wonder if the new meta works like the RED did
((base crit multiplyer*1.03)-1)*talent multiplyer+1=end result
or a new formula like this:
critmultiplyer after talents*1.03= result

if its the 1st it'd turn out to be
Arcane: ((1.5 *1.03)-1)*1.5+1= 1.8175 as crit multiplyer (oposed to 1.75 pre gem)
Resulting in 6.75% higher crits wich is a 2.5% dps increase @ 37% crit
Fire(10/48/3):(1.5 *1.03)*1.4= 2.163 multiplyer
Resulting in 6.3% higher crits resulting into 2.5% dps increase @ 39.7% crit

and so on

Myrdinn · 10/14/07, 6:00 PM

A lot of testing is currently done with AM/MSD spec, and with the old 10/48/3 deep fire spec as far as I understood

I am still unable to get on EU PTR (damned copy :/), but I was wondering if someone already compared fire 10/48/3 with fire 33/28, at least on the theorycrafting basis (need Vontre's new site

)
With the new meta, and the 10% removal, higher crit dmg looks interesting...

We were already getting close numbers between these 2 specs before arcane 2.2 supremacy